Chris Owings >13th pitcher?

[Bellhorn04]

Somewhat typical of this board. Things go well all is good for the most part. Things go poorly, pile on searching for someone to blame. DD is used to it for sure. Last year, Cora in some eyes represented the best manager in Sox history, not so much this year i guess.

 

What irks me is the heaping of abuse on the same players who delivered such a fantastic season last year.

[dgalehouse]

What irks me is the heaping of abuse on the same players who delivered such a fantastic season last year.

 

Scapegoat time is here . It never stops . Even when we win it all .

[Bellhorn04]

Scapegoat time is here . It never stops . Even when we win it all .

 

True that.

[moonslav59]

I am really surprised by how many people think Dave needs to go based on this season.

 

He needs to go based on next season(s).

[cp176]

He needs to go based on next season(s).

 

he needs to go based on next season - really. I'm going with the premise that even though a number of folks here are research specialists who can obviously prove all of the things that DD cannot do and has not done, his longevity , respect, record, and results speak for themselves.

[cp176]

It's the way it goes on any sports message board, cp. Most sports fans are the consummate fairweather friends.

 

I do understand what you are saying and agree. I am a fan of the game. I think that I understand when players are playing poorly and when ridiculous decisions are made. Personally being a fan to me means supporting players, coaches and general managers unless I see something that truly stands out as poor. Other than poor pitching and some poor play, i don't see the things that make me want to get rid of the GM.

[S5Dewey]

I do understand what you are saying and agree. I am a fan of the game. I think that I understand when players are playing poorly and when ridiculous decisions are made. Personally being a fan to me means supporting players, coaches and general managers unless I see something that truly stands out as poor. Other than poor pitching and some poor play, i don't see the things that make me want to get rid of the GM.

 

WANTED:

General Manager for the Boston Red Sox. Must have crystal ball capable of infallibly predicting each player's Career Years, Slumping Years, and injuries. Others need not apply.

[OH FOY]

Sox added 4 more Pitchers to Roster, Poyner, Kelly, Brewer, and Shawaryn. I like Kelly, hope he does better this time around.

[cp176]

WANTED:

General Manager for the Boston Red Sox. Must have crystal ball capable of infallibly predicting each player's Career Years, Slumping Years, and injuries. Others need not apply.

 

lol - I like that. Could possibly add that a quick consult with the best "hind sight" strategists in the country (obviously talksoxers) might be necessary. it's what every general manager needs . Help from the peanut gallery.

[moonslav59]

he needs to go based on next season - really. I'm going with the premise that even though a number of folks here are research specialists who can obviously prove all of the things that DD cannot do and has not done, his longevity , respect, record, and results speak for themselves.

 

When has he done a good job rebuilding a farm system?

 

He's known for trading away the future for the now, which I was fine with, but he's not known for building up teams that have a bad farm and no money to spend.

[moonslav59]

WANTED:

General Manager for the Boston Red Sox. Must have crystal ball capable of infallibly predicting each player's Career Years, Slumping Years, and injuries. Others need not apply.

 

That's the GMs for the Rays the past few years.

[oldtimer]

he needs to go based on next season - really. I'm going with the premise that even though a number of folks here are research specialists who can obviously prove all of the things that DD cannot do and has not done, his longevity , respect, record, and results speak for themselves.

 

Ask Tiger fans.

[moonslav59]

Ask Tiger fans.

 

Yes, why didn't they keep DD around for the rebuild?

 

It's obvious: it's not what he does.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, why didn't they keep DD around for the rebuild?

 

It's obvious: it's not what he does.

 

To be totally fair, he did some good rebuilding work when he was with the Marlins.

[moonslav59]

To be totally fair, he did some good rebuilding work when he was with the Marlins.

 

But, he inherited a farm and had spending room. He'll have neither next year.

[notin]

I do understand what you are saying and agree. I am a fan of the game. I think that I understand when players are playing poorly and when ridiculous decisions are made. Personally being a fan to me means supporting players, coaches and general managers unless I see something that truly stands out as poor. Other than poor pitching and some poor play, i don't see the things that make me want to get rid of the GM.

 

So... a decimated farm and bloated payroll that the owner won't let him add to at the trade deadline don't count? How about a contract for Steve Pearce despite losing two key relievers?

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, I think the sentiment that Dave has to go is not really based on this season. I think it has a lot more to do with the perception that the rebuild/reset time is here, and Dave is not the guy to implement that.

 

That's fair.

[Kimmi]

I was never a fan...

 

I think most people know that I am not a Dombrowski fan either. I really dislike the approach that he took the first two years that he was with this team. At the very least, I think he is given far too much credit for the moves that he made during that period, and also far too much credit for the Red Sox going from last place to first place.

 

All that said, the teams that have been on the field since Dombrowski came aboard have been legitimate WS contenders on paper, including this year. We might not agree with everything he did, but despite that, the team should have been much better.

 

Dombrowski does not deserve much of the blame for this season. In fact, I think Dombrowski did some of his finest work with the Red Sox in 2018 and 2019.

[Kimmi]

He needs to go based on next season(s).

 

I agree with that, depending on what Henry's intentions are, specifically in terms of the luxury tax penalty. On second thought, I think I agree with that regardless.

[cp176]

So... a decimated farm and bloated payroll that the owner won't let him add to at the trade deadline don't count? How about a contract for Steve Pearce despite losing two key relievers?

 

There will always be good and bad moves made by any GM. I'm sure that there are a couple of folks here who honestly think that they could do his job. That really is my opinion. I do find it humorous that so many tend to hindsight to death anyone who makes decisions that they do not agree with. You will have a tough time getting me to board the I don't like DD train I'm afraid.

[Bellhorn04]

I think most people know that I am not a Dombrowski fan either. I really dislike the approach that he took the first two years that he was with this team. At the very least, I think he is given far too much credit for the moves that he made during that period, and also far too much credit for the Red Sox going from last place to first place.

 

All that said, the teams that have been on the field since Dombrowski came aboard have been legitimate WS contenders on paper, including this year. We might not agree with everything he did, but despite that, the team should have been much better.

 

Dombrowski does not deserve much of the blame for this season. In fact, I think Dombrowski did some of his finest work with the Red Sox in 2018 and 2019.

 

Kimmi, you have been very fair and consistent about Dombrowski.

[notin]

There will always be good and bad moves made by any GM. I'm sure that there are a couple of folks here who honestly think that they could do his job. That really is my opinion. I do find it humorous that so many tend to hindsight to death anyone who makes decisions that they do not agree with. You will have a tough time getting me to board the I don't like DD train I'm afraid.

 

DD will always have 2018. That's a big accomplishment for him.

 

I find it odd that some write off Dombrowski's questionable moves as "Hey, every GM does it" but then chastise Cherington for exactly the same type of thing...

[notin]

I think most people know that I am not a Dombrowski fan either. I really dislike the approach that he took the first two years that he was with this team. At the very least, I think he is given far too much credit for the moves that he made during that period, and also far too much credit for the Red Sox going from last place to first place.

 

All that said, the teams that have been on the field since Dombrowski came aboard have been legitimate WS contenders on paper, including this year. We might not agree with everything he did, but despite that, the team should have been much better.

 

Dombrowski does not deserve much of the blame for this season. In fact, I think Dombrowski did some of his finest work with the Red Sox in 2018 and 2019.

 

I can agree with 2018, and the results bear it out.

 

But I questioned his 2019 approach going back to December, and it only got worse when I realized what his budget really was. Now, I am allowed to do so because I didn't know and didn't need to know what he had left to spend. But I assume he did know...

[Bellhorn04]

I find it odd that some write off Dombrowski's questionable moves as "Hey, every GM does it" but then chastise Cherington for exactly the same type of thing...

 

I don't really see the parallel.

 

Cherington was chastisted for 3 main things IMO:

 

1) Last place finishes.

2) Pablo/Hanley/Castillo.

3) The 2015 pitching staff.

[notin]

I don't really see the parallel.

 

Cherington was chastisted for 3 main things IMO:

 

1) Last place finishes.

2) Pablo/Hanley/Castillo.

3) The 2015 pitching staff.

 

1. Were the last place finishes his fault or due to player's underperforming? The team came in last in 2014 after winning a title in 2013 with largely the same team. Is that really the fault of the GM? And how is that team's underperformance the fault of the GM, but this year's the fault of the rotation?

2. I didn't like the Sandoval signing, but Hanley was actually not a bad contract. He signed for far below what he was predicted to get, and for fewer years. That he didn't pan out is not the fault of the GM, is it? And Castillo was actually petty good when he was not hurting himself.

3. The big issue many had with the 2015 Sox staff was the lack of an "ace" type pitcher, but the rotation actually held it's own for an average finish of 13th in MLB in fWAR. The real problem with that team was the bullpen, which was 30th in fWAR in MLB. In fact, the rotation ranked higher against it's counterparts than the offense did, as it came in 15th in MLB.

 

And the 2015 Sox did come in last, but it was a surprising 78-84 record, which is pretty good for a last place team. They sort of fell into the back end of a lot of parity, since only 2 teams in the AL won more than 88 games that year...

[Bellhorn04]

1. Were the last place finishes his fault or due to player's underperforming? The team came in last in 2014 after winning a title in 2013 with largely the same team. Is that really the fault of the GM? And how is that team's underperformance the fault of the GM, but this year's the fault of the rotation?

2. I didn't like the Sandoval signing, but Hanley was actually not a bad contract. He signed for far below what he was predicted to get, and for fewer years. That he didn't pan out is not the fault of the GM, is it? And Castillo was actually petty good when he was not hurting himself.

3. The big issue many had with the 2015 Sox staff was the lack of an "ace" type pitcher, but the rotation actually held it's own for an average finish of 13th in MLB in fWAR. The real problem with that team was the bullpen, which was 30th in fWAR in MLB. In fact, the rotation ranked higher against it's counterparts than the offense did, as it came in 15th in MLB.

 

We could spend all day on these topics.

[Maxbialystock]

Interesting, as always, discussion on DD, which to me means upper management and with it John Henry, arguably (with four WS wins) the best owner in MLB today.

 

I find it interesting that JH, while perfectly willing to spend big bucks to bring in high quality player talent, has until DD relied on developing front office talent like Epstein and Cherington--both of whom are currently GM's with the Cubs and Jays respectively.

 

Critics of the movie Moneyball point out that the very successful 2002 Oakland A's relied heavily on young talent developed by the very scouts pilloried in early scenes in the movie. Before DD showed up, the Sox were pretty good at developing young talent like Beni, JBJ, Betts, Bogie, Devers, Chavis, ERod, etc. Now, not so much.

 

The Sox under DD seem to be following a trail blazed by the estimable NY Yankees, the wealthiest MLB franchise, who have historically not hesitated to spend big bucks for overpriced talent. That is exactly how I would characterize our current rotation.

 

Thus I'm inclined to agree with moonslav59, our own talksox GM/owner, who says it's time to go back to an earlier formula of developing young talent while also acquiring some key "outside" talent. DD has never shown any ability or patience in developing talent.

[notin]

Interesting, as always, discussion on DD, which to me means upper management and with it John Henry, arguably (with four WS wins) the best owner in MLB today.

 

I find it interesting that JH, while perfectly willing to spend big bucks to bring in high quality player talent, has until DD relied on developing front office talent like Epstein and Cherington--both of whom are currently GM's with the Cubs and Jays respectively.

 

Critics of the movie Moneyball point out that the very successful 2002 Oakland A's relied heavily on young talent developed by the very scouts pilloried in early scenes in the movie. Before DD showed up, the Sox were pretty good at developing young talent like Beni, JBJ, Betts, Bogie, Devers, Chavis, ERod, etc. Now, not so much.

 

The Sox under DD seem to be following a trail blazed by the estimable NY Yankees, the wealthiest MLB franchise, who have historically not hesitated to spend big bucks for overpriced talent. That is exactly how I would characterize our current rotation.

 

Thus I'm inclined to agree with moonslav59, our own talksox GM/owner, who says it's time to go back to an earlier formula of developing young talent while also acquiring some key "outside" talent. DD has never shown any ability or patience in developing talent.

 

This seems to be true every time we have a GM with the initials DD...

[Bellhorn04]

As much as we crap on our GM's, Duquette, Epstein, Cherington and Dombrowski delivered piles of playoff teams and 4 championships. Not too bad.

[Maxbialystock]

As much as we crap on our GM's, Duquette, Epstein, Cherington and Dombrowski delivered piles of playoff teams and 4 championships. Not too bad.

 

I guess my point is that just maybe the smart guy is John Henry himself. Now he is the one who has to decide on whether to stay with DD.

 

I have left out any discussion on the overall profitability of the Sox of the effects of the luxury tax, both of which are key factors.