Henry not looking to add much payroll

[moonslav59]

but zero yuuuuge contracts were available to be signed by the Sox this past offseason. yes, they spent some on Eovaldi but we needed another starter anyways. the $6mil on Pearce was f***ing weird but its not like that was enough to go crazy on the FA market. our team and payroll was pretty much locked up before the offseason even began. this falls squarely on WTF shoulders.

 

The tight box DD was in this winter was partially his own doing.

 

Besides, if you add Eovaldi, Pearce, Thornburg and the $4-5M we still have left over, he could have gotten one big FA or 2-3 better-than-we got mid ranged ones.

 

It's not Cora's fault.

 

Look, I liked the Eovaldi signing, but GMs, right or wrong, are judged in hindsight.

 

I'm glad we hired DD. He got a ring, but that doesn't take him off the hook for how spending more than $240M on this year's team gives us a .500 team.

[notin]

 

I'm glad we hired DD. He got a ring, but that doesn't take him off the hook for how spending more than $240M on this year's team gives us a .500 team.

 

He’s responsible for the worst use of $240mill since Spider-Man 3...

[jung]

He’s responsible for the worst use of $240mill since Spider Man 3...

 

And of course spending like a drunken sailor happens to be DD's reputation. Got a WS out of him. Not convinced we will get much more than that.

 

I actually think John Henry got what he expected out of DD and is using Kennedy and his own judgement to throttle DD back on his usual MO.

 

There are no MLB dynasties any longer and I don't think there will be any. There certainly won't be one here where the organizational revenue streams are as detached from the performance on the field as they can be. They are running a carnival down there at Fenway. We are likely lucky that the organization HAS so much money to spend. Probably the only real reason we are getting championships about 1 year in 4.

Edited July 1, 2019 by jung

[Slasher9]

The tight box DD was in this winter was partially his own doing.

 

Besides, if you add Eovaldi, Pearce, Thornburg and the $4-5M we still have left over, he could have gotten one big FA or 2-3 better-than-we got mid ranged ones.

 

It's not Cora's fault.

 

Look, I liked the Eovaldi signing, but GMs, right or wrong, are judged in hindsight.

 

I'm glad we hired DD. He got a ring, but that doesn't take him off the hook for how spending more than $240M on this year's team gives us a .500 team.

 

the money would have had to be spent on a starter. again, the pearce thing was weird. thornburg was already signed or did he get another year this off season? i was not happy at all when price was signed to that LTC but we did get a parade last year so i am letting it go. who else did DD overspend on? i do think he overspent our Farm on players he could have obtained for less but we are talking salary now. what contract(s) do you think DD shouldnt have given?

[jung]

the money would have had to be spent on a starter. again, the pearce thing was weird. thornburg was already signed or did he get another year this off season? i was not happy at all when price was signed to that LTC but we did get a parade last year so i am letting it go. who else did DD overspend on? i do think he overspent our Farm on players he could have obtained for less but we are talking salary now. what contract(s) do you think DD shouldnt have given?

 

Pearce was without question a total waste of money. Hated that move right from the start. I was in favor of signing Nate though it has not worked out as yet and may never work out. Pitching is a crap shoot. Not convinced I would have given Moreland his contract either. In fact I am pretty non-plused about the way the Sox have handled 1st base in total.

 

The only complaint I have on JD is that they appear to be trying to either keep him happy or justify him by sticking him in the OF. He looks like a wounded giraffe out there. Don't know what that is about. But they better keep him completely out of a Fenway OF from now on and they better pick the away game outfields they put him in based on how comfy and cozy they are.

 

Didn't we get Carson Smith and Thorny cheap because they were considered higher than normal injury risks? You get what you pay for.

Edited July 1, 2019 by jung

[a700hitter]

One could easily say that DD spent on the wrong talent, and he won't be given more money to fix his mistakes.

 

We can "read into" it either way.

 

Can anyone deny that our pen was never "talented" on paper, and expecting Cora to make it so was not realistic.

 

IMO, Cora got the pen to over perform for the first 6-8 weeks of the season, and now reality is setting in. That's on DD.

 

Also, how can Cora be blamed for the performances of our starters, even after the first two weeks and the whole "restgate" period expired?

 

Our starters have been way to inconsistent at a time when we needed them to take some heat off the pen.

I think restgate didn't end after two weeks. It ruined the month of April. It takes more than 2 weeks of spring training to ramp up a pitcher, and they missed those 2 weeks entirely. Pitchers who are properly ramped up during ST continue to build arm strength for the first couple of weeks of the regular season.

 

As for Henry's statement that this team has enough talent to "easily" make the playoffs, that is squarely on Cora and his players. There is no other way to interpret that. Maybe some of the other statements are subject to different interpretations, but that one is not.

[Jasonbay44]

Pretty sad, when Wright, Brewer and Workman are the only three pen guys we can have any confidence in, right now.

 

And I don't know about you guys, but I really don't have any confidence in a knuckle ball pitcher and Colton Brewer. Brewer hasn't been good, he's just been "not s*****" lately. He's on a little hot streak but I wouldn't count on that lasting.

[dgalehouse]

And I don't know about you guys, but I really don't have any confidence in a knuckle ball pitcher and Colton Brewer. Brewer hasn't been good, he's just been "not s*****" lately. He's on a little hot streak but I wouldn't count on that lasting.

 

How much confidence has Wright inspired anyway ? In four innings pitched he has given up six hits including a home run . ERA - 4.50 WHIP - 1.8

[moonslav59]

the money would have had to be spent on a starter. again, the pearce thing was weird. thornburg was already signed or did he get another year this off season? i was not happy at all when price was signed to that LTC but we did get a parade last year so i am letting it go. who else did DD overspend on? i do think he overspent our Farm on players he could have obtained for less but we are talking salary now. what contract(s) do you think DD shouldnt have given?

 

Thornburg is just a minor cost, but $1.75M adds up. He was an arb player that we could have refused.

 

Others he overspent on were...

 

Moreland ($13M/2)

Nunez ($6M)

 

Maybe Eovaldi & Sale (to be determined)

 

If you add Eovaldi, Moreland, Pearce, Thornburg and Nunez, it's almost $37M (about 1/6 of our tax budget).

 

DD has made some very good choices. His overall record is very good when looking through the lense of winning now, but there is no denying he has emptied the farm and is "partially" responsible for some "dead contract" players on this year's team.

 

[moonslav59]

And I don't know about you guys, but I really don't have any confidence in a knuckle ball pitcher and Colton Brewer. Brewer hasn't been good, he's just been "not s*****" lately. He's on a little hot streak but I wouldn't count on that lasting.

 

"any" confidence does not mean a lot.

[moonslav59]

I think restgate didn't end after two weeks. It ruined the month of April. It takes more than 2 weeks of spring training to ramp up a pitcher, and they missed those 2 weeks entirely. Pitchers who are properly ramped up during ST continue to build arm strength for the first couple of weeks of the regular season.

 

As for Henry's statement that this team has enough talent to "easily" make the playoffs, that is squarely on Cora and his players. There is no other way to interpret that. Maybe some of the other statements are subject to different interpretations, but that one is not.

 

I disagree, and I think my interpretation is totally within reason.

 

Also, do you think Cora acted totally alone on the decision to rest our SP'ers in ST'ing?

[moonslav59]

How much confidence has Wright inspired anyway ? In four innings pitched he has given up six hits including a home run . ERA - 4.50 WHIP - 1.8

 

It's sad but true.

 

I have more confidence in Wright than anyone else, except Workman & Brewer, as of right now.

 

That's not the same as saying I have confidence he will be good going forward... just "better" than putrid.

[oldtimer]

The premise of JH opening his wallet for still more players seems to me like throwing good money after bad. I doubt if any move we can make at this point will give us a chance to really compete for the WS. Fix what we have and try to rid ourselves of players that are not helping. At my company, you were either an A a B or a C employee. C employees were regularly turned over. Time to do that with some of ours while trying some youth who may blossom like Chavis has. He is not great but given a year of development he appears to be as valuable as Pearce and Moreland.

[Elktonnick]

Henry is putting the responsibility for not making the playoffs squarely on Cora.

That's my take as well. If the Sox fail to make the playoffs I believe the Manager will be on very thin ice. He may not get fired but he will be on a very very short leash come 2020.

[Elktonnick]

I disagree, and I think my interpretation is totally within reason.

 

Also, do you think Cora acted totally alone on the decision to rest our SP'ers in ST'ing?

 

It isn't a question of if he acted alone but rather if he was the leading advocate. If within the organization it was seen as primarily his idea or its leading proponent then he is stuck with the blame for its failure. Given how much he both advocated and defended the move then I would say he owns it and will be the one to primarily suffer the consequences for its failure.

 

I find it more than curious that many NESN analysts such as Remy, Eckersley and others have politely panned it. I suspect they wouldn't have said a word if the idea had been thoroughly embraced at the Henry or Werner level of the organization. I suspect the latter two approved it because coming off the title they had little reason to doubt the manager's judgment until its error was demonstrated by subsequent events. For this reason, I suspect that the manager has lost a lot of credibility with ownership, hence Henry's subtle warning.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Elktonnick

[moonslav59]

That's my take as well. If the Sox fail to make the playoffs I believe the Manager will be on very thin ice. He may not get fired but he will be on a very very short leash come 2020.

 

With the state of our farm and budget going forward, is DD "on this ice"as well?

[moonslav59]

Pablo's contract is gone from the luxury tax budget after this year.

 

Castillo, who doesn't count on the tax budget, is gone after next year.

 

Pedey's contract is dead weight, and our best pitcher right now, Price, is under contract a few more years, but this winter, the budget is squarely on DD's shoulders.

 

If we can't win by paying more than any other team, I don't see it as being Cora's fault, especially after he led a team not projected to win it all to a championship last year.

 

Of course, Cora deserves some of the blame, but this is DD's roster. This is DD's pen. This will be DD's budget and farm next year.

[moonslav59]

It isn't a question of if he acted alone but rather if he was the leading advocate. If within the organization it was seen as primarily his idea or its leading proponent then he is stuck with the blame for its failure. Given how much he both advocated and defended the move then I would say he owns it and will be the one to primarily suffer the consequences for its failure.

 

I'm sure DD signed off on it, but that's not even my point.

 

My point is that our "well-rested" starters have sucked their last 3 starts and longer. It's hard to blame Cora for that.

 

Our pen over achieved for weeks and weeks, despite being over worked. They are finally pitching like expectations projected they would.It's hard to blame Cora for that.

 

We can't buy a hit, when we need it, and I guess that's Cora's fault, too.

 

In my opinion, the players are the first to blame, especially the talented ones who are under performing of not rising to the challenge when needed. DD is second. Cora is third. Henry is beyond reproach.

 

[Elktonnick]

I'm sure DD signed off on it, but that's not even my point.

 

My point is that our "well-rested" starters have sucked their last 3 starts and longer. It's hard to blame Cora for that.

 

Our pen over achieved for weeks and weeks, despite being over worked. They are finally pitching like expectations projected they would.It's hard to blame Cora for that.

 

We can't buy a hit, when we need it, and I guess that's Cora's fault, too.

 

In my opinion, the players are the first to blame, especially the talented ones who are under performing of not rising to the challenge when needed. DD is second. Cora is third. Henry is beyond reproach.

 

 

Not to rude but it doesn't matter what your opinion is or for that matter mine. What matters is what is Henry's. I am merely interpreting Henry's remarks as it relates to the manager and to DD.

 

The reason why I suspect the field manager is on thinner ice than DD is merely because Henry has a longer relation with the latter than the former and because I believe the manager not the VP for baseball OPs DD has the day to day responsibility for the team's on the field performance which based on the owner's words is clearly seen as wanting.

[moonslav59]

Not to rude but it doesn't matter what your opinion is or for that matter mine. What matters is what is Henry's. I am merely interpreting Henry's remarks as it relates to the manager and to DD.

 

The reason why I suspect the field manager is on thinner ice than DD is merely because Henry has a longer relation with the latter than the former and because I believe the manager not the VP for baseball OPs DD has the day to day responsibility for the team's on the field performance which based on the owner's words is clearly seen as wanting.

 

I respect your opinion, and you could very well be 100% right.

 

I interpreted the statement as directed towards everyone: players, manager and GM.

 

He's provided ample resources to build a contender, and we are quickly slipping out of contention.

 

I don't see Cora as being the only target of this statement.

[Elktonnick]

I respect your opinion, and you could very well be 100% right.

 

I interpreted the statement as directed towards everyone: players, manager and GM.

 

He's provided ample resources to build a contender, and we are quickly slipping out of contention.

 

I don't see Cora as being the only target of this statement.

 

I agree that it is directed at everyone. But, that being said, I think it puts the most pressure on the manager. In essence what Henry is actually saying is " I have given you the tools and the players if you can't get the most out of these guys I will find some one who will."

[oldtimer]

I respect your opinion, and you could very well be 100% right.

 

I interpreted the statement as directed towards everyone: players, manager and GM.

 

He's provided ample resources to build a contender, and we are quickly slipping out of contention.

 

I don't see Cora as being the only target of this statement.

 

This is a team that is largely unchanged from the 2018 with the exception of Kimbrel and Kelly and the Operation on Eovaldi. Same manager and coaches. perhaps a few more injuries but no more than other teams, including the Yankees. It is also a team that spends the most of anyone in baseball to the extent that they are up against the second tier of the competitive balance tax. Why aren't they more competitive? Care to make any guesses?

 

1. Some of the better teams took action to improve while we stood pat.

2. Cora's plan to prepare the team to play appears to have fallen short.

a. The starters weren't ready

b. The BP got overworked

c. Poor decision to let Eovaldi's operation to be delayed until April.

d. Lack of any action to bolster the pitching staff after the loss of Kelly and Kimbrel

3. Some players have shown significant imrpovement (Bogey, Devers, Vazquez) while others have shown significant backsliding (Betts, Beni, JBJ for a long while).

4. The Pedroia issue was not addressed until Chavis was brought up

5. Cora's policy of resting players meant that we seldom put our A team on the field together. Despite all the rest we still produced a long IL.

6. Weak execution with RISP, Base Running, Fielding. Were some reading their newspaper clippings?

7. For a long while, the bottom hitters in the lineup just didn't contribute. Whose fault was it that we structured a team with that kind of problem?

 

I can understand players getting discouraged after so many hard losses. Is there any spirit and enthusiasm left in this group? Did winning the WS foster an attitude of arrogance in the players.

 

Cora is taking today to brainstorm with his coaches. Why has it taken this long to admit that there are big problems?

[moonslav59]

I agree that it is directed at everyone. But, that being said, I think it puts the most pressure on the manager. In essence what Henry is actually saying is " I have given you the tools and the players if you can't get the most out of these guys I will find some one who will."

 

I certainly see Cora as being one, maybe the major one, Henry is directing this at, but I do not think he is threatening job loss, if we fail to make the playoffs.

 

To me, it is more of a general lighting the fire under everyone's ass by telling them help is not on the way- sink or swim on your own.

 

Maybe heads roll, if we don't make it.

 

It's easy to look at a team like the Yankees and say, wow, their manager has given them this big lead despite all the major injuries, but look at the reserves he was given, compared to our scrubs.

 

We have a solid 18-20 players and nothing beyond. Personally, I can't see how that's Cora's fault, but I realize my opinion means nothing to Henry.

[a700hitter]

I disagree, and I think my interpretation is totally within reason.

 

Also, do you think Cora acted totally alone on the decision to rest our SP'ers in ST'ing?

since DD has never played or coached, if it was his idea, Cora and his pitching coaches should have filled him in on why it would be a terrible idea. I think this type of decision is left to the infield coaches and managers as they are the ones with the expertise. And there is no other way to interpret the “easily make” the playoffs remark. Another interpretation of that remark is not plausible.

[a700hitter]

Not to rude but it doesn't matter what your opinion is or for that matter mine. What matters is what is Henry's. I am merely interpreting Henry's remarks as it relates to the manager and to DD.

 

The reason why I suspect the field manager is on thinner ice than DD is merely because Henry has a longer relation with the latter than the former and because I believe the manager not the VP for baseball OPs DD has the day to day responsibility for the team's on the field performance which based on the owner's words is clearly seen as wanting.

Henry and DD go back a long way. Cora was DD’s hire. He will go first. The pressure is on Cora.

[moonslav59]

This is a team that is largely unchanged from the 2018 with the exception of Kimbrel and Kelly and the Operation on Eovaldi. Same manager and coaches. perhaps a few more injuries but no more than other teams, including the Yankees. It is also a team that spends the most of anyone in baseball to the extent that they are up against the second tier of the competitive balance tax. Why aren't they more competitive? Care to make any guesses?

 

1. Some of the better teams took action to improve while we stood pat.

2. Cora's plan to prepare the team to play appears to have fallen short.

a. The starters weren't ready

b. The BP got overworked

c. Poor decision to let Eovaldi's operation to be delayed until April.

d. Lack of any action to bolster the pitching staff after the loss of Kelly and Kimbrel

3. Some players have shown significant imrpovement (Bogey, Devers, Vazquez) while others have shown significant backsliding (Betts, Beni, JBJ for a long while).

4. The Pedroia issue was not addressed until Chavis was brought up

5. Cora's policy of resting players meant that we seldom put our A team on the field together. Despite all the rest we still produced a long IL.

6. Weak execution with RISP, Base Running, Fielding. Were some reading their newspaper clippings?

7. For a long while, the bottom hitters in the lineup just didn't contribute. Whose fault was it that we structured a team with that kind of problem?

 

I can understand players getting discouraged after so many hard losses. Is there any spirit and enthusiasm left in this group? Did winning the WS foster an attitude of arrogance in the players.

 

Cora is taking today to brainstorm with his coaches. Why has it taken this long to admit that there are big problems?

 

It's probably many of these things plus a few not on the list. I'm not sure we can even pinpoint one area that is mostly worthy of the blame game.

 

Our pen was weak to start with. The hope was they could hold it together until we traded for someone(s). They did well for a while, but ultimately came down to earth and even underground.

 

Timely hitting is not something that can be coached, managed, traded for or inspired. It is not a sustainable skill set. It may involve luck, momentum or whatever, but it's hard to throw blame on anyone for doing poorly in small subset sample sizes, but the fact is, we have lost many games due to the lack of one key hit.

 

Our SP'ers have pitched poorly and not gone long into games. Our 5th starter has been a punching bag. Without some massive run support, at times, our 5th starters would be something like 2-15.

 

Devers, Vaz and Bogey have stepped it up, even in the clutch, but too many have declined.

 

I've not given up hope, yet, but I am as low as I have been since 2017.

[a700hitter]

I respect your opinion, and you could very well be 100% right.

 

I interpreted the statement as directed towards everyone: players, manager and GM.

 

He's provided ample resources to build a contender, and we are quickly slipping out of contention.

 

I don't see Cora as being the only target of this statement.

Some of the statement could be interpreted as being directed toward DD, but that portion of the statement is vague. The portion that is not vague about “easily making the playoffs is targeted directly at Cora and the roster.

[moonslav59]

Henry and DD go back a long way. Cora was DD’s hire. He will go first. The pressure is on Cora.

 

Of course, there is pressure being directed at Cora, and I know DD's job is probably safer than Cora's, but I do not think the statement was directed at Cora alone.

 

I realize my opinion means nothing to Henry, but I feel that if blame is to be assigned (not my idea of fun times) I'd put more blame on DD than any other one person in the organization- past or present.

 

That's not to say I dislike DD or want his ass canned, if we fail to make the playoffs. I'm happy for the ring he helped bring us, but there is no denying, we are in a pickle now with no help in sight from the farm and no budget space to move more than an inch or two. That is on DD.

 

BTW, with all this talk of not even making the playoffs and firing the 2018 Manager of the Year, could this be a sign of the coming of a steep rocky terrain mentioned years ago?

[Elktonnick]

I certainly see Cora as being one, maybe the major one, Henry is directing this at, but I do not think he is threatening job loss, if we fail to make the playoffs.

 

To me, it is more of a general lighting the fire under everyone's ass by telling them help is not on the way- sink or swim on your own.

 

Maybe heads roll, if we don't make it.

 

It's easy to look at a team like the Yankees and say, wow, their manager has given them this big lead despite all the major injuries, but look at the reserves he was given, compared to our scrubs.

 

We have a solid 18-20 players and nothing beyond. Personally, I can't see how that's Cora's fault, but I realize my opinion means nothing to Henry.

You may not be thinking he is threatening the Manager's job but I suspect the manager is. I know what I would be thinking if I were the manager " I better get this thing turned around if I want keep managing this ball club.

[a700hitter]

I certainly see Cora as being one, maybe the major one, Henry is directing this at, but I do not think he is threatening job loss, if we fail to make the playoffs.

 

To me, it is more of a general lighting the fire under everyone's ass by telling them help is not on the way- sink or swim on your own.

 

Maybe heads roll, if we don't make it.

 

It's easy to look at a team like the Yankees and say, wow, their manager has given them this big lead despite all the major injuries, but look at the reserves he was given, compared to our scrubs.

 

We have a solid 18-20 players and nothing beyond. Personally, I can't see how that's Cora's fault, but I realize my opinion means nothing to Henry.

I agree that Cora will probably not lose his job if they miss the playoffs. If he misses the playoffs or goes one game and out, Cora will not get fired, but he will be on a short leash in 2020. However, if this team falls apart in the second half, I think he could get fired. In any case, Cora will go before DD.