Are the Sox paid enough?

[notin]

Merit based pay and merit raises ................. A smart idea , but an idea that never , ever catches on .

 

Mostly because it's a great theory that in real life, is incredibly impractical...

[Bellhorn04]

Who determines merit - and why would it be static? I mean player measurement has evolved greatly, and with all the Statcast API stuff will evolve even more. Why should GMs bear no risk here?

 

GM's should bear risk, absolutely.

 

When you sign a player for 5 or more years you're not doing it strictly out of generosity. You're doing it because you want custody of the asset for an extended period. For that ownership and potential value you should pay a price in risk.

[Bellhorn04]

Mostly because it's a great theory that in real life, is incredibly impractical...

 

Yep. What would Mookie's merit-based pay for 2018 be?

[dgalehouse]

Who determines merit - and why would it be static? I mean player measurement has evolved greatly, and with all the Statcast API stuff will evolve even more. Why should GMs bear no risk here?

 

Exactly how much player measurement has evolved is a subject for a whole other debate . Regardless , a good manager / supervisor should know , and should be expected to know , which employees are productive and which are not . Regrettably, due to human nature and human failings on the part of both management and labor , a true merit based pay system would never work out .

[notin]

Exactly how much player measurement has evolved is a subject for a whole other debate . Regardless , a good manager / supervisor should know , and should be expected to know , which employees are productive and which are not . Regrettably, due to human nature and human failings on the part of both management and labor , a true merit based pay system would never work out .

 

 

Especially if you leave the determination of merit to the very people who issue pay and are incentivized to keep the money spent lower.

 

It’s not human nature that causes the problems. It’s conflict of interests...

[notin]

Yep. What would Mookie's merit-based pay for 2018 be?

 

One GAZILLION dollars.

 

And forty-three cents...

[Kimmi]

Who determines merit - and why would it be static? I mean player measurement has evolved greatly, and with all the Statcast API stuff will evolve even more. Why should GMs bear no risk here?

 

The merits would be something that the player and GM both agree on. The GM is assuming risk by guaranteeing the first 5-6 years.

[Jack Flap]

I know people love to hate on Fangraphs' $/WAR conversions, but according to them, Mookie was worth a cool $83.1 million in 2018.

[dgalehouse]

I know people love to hate on Fangraphs' $/WAR conversions, but according to them, Mookie was worth a cool $83.1 million in 2018.

 

I think if you asked most fans to explain WAR on the spot , without looking anything up , they would have no idea . I know I wouldn't. But if the system involves taking a variety of " baseball card " stats and throwing them into a blender , along with a few extenuating circumstances, a certain amount of judgment on their relative importance and a dash of personal opinion , and it all came out with a numerical rating for the player involved , I could , at least somewhat , dig it . But when you try to translate that into wins as opposed to an imaginary " replacement " and then into a dollar amount, you lose me completely. Getting old ain't easy .

[moonslav59]

I think if you asked most fans to explain WAR on the spot , without looking anything up , they would have no idea . I know I wouldn't. But if the system involves taking a variety of " baseball card " stats and throwing them into a blender , along with a few extenuating circumstances, a certain amount of judgment on their relative importance and a dash of personal opinion , and it all came out with a numerical rating for the player involved , I could , at least somewhat , dig it . But when you try to translate that into wins as opposed to an imaginary " replacement " and then into a dollar amount, you lose me completely. Getting old ain't easy .

 

Then ignore the conversion to dollars like most of us do.

 

[notin]

K

Then ignore the conversion to dollars like most of us do.

 

 

 

The dollar conversion assumes you want to replace that player with a free agent at the current full price...

[moonslav59]

K

 

 

The dollar conversion assumes you want to replace that player with a free agent at the current full price...

 

Yes, and so it is not really of much use.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, and so it is not really of much use.

 

It's not of great use but it is interesting, because it shows how incredibly expensive the production of free agents has been.

[moonslav59]

It's not of great use but it is interesting, because it shows how incredibly expensive the production of free agents has been.

 

Isn't the dollar conversion is based on what FAs got paid as a relation to their recent WAR before signing and not on what they did after the signing?

 

[Bellhorn04]

Isn't the dollar conversion is based on what FAs got paid as a relation to their recent WAR before signing and not on what they did after the signing?

 

What they did after the signing. That's exactly why the dollar values seem so inflated. They're real values in the sense that they measure what teams are paying on average to a free agent for a win. So it includes all the dead money like Pablo.

[dgalehouse]

The owners are clearly making a concerted effort to hold down spending on salaries. ( It is understandable and I don't necessarily blame them . ) They are using these kind of analytics as well as the ( essentially self imposed ) luxury tax as tools in an attempt to justify this effort . I am pretty sure the players are coming to realize this more each day . It will all come to a head before long.

[cp176]

The owners are clearly making a concerted effort to hold down spending on salaries. ( It is understandable and I don't necessarily blame them . ) They are using these kind of analytics as well as the ( essentially self imposed ) luxury tax as tools in an attempt to justify this effort . I am pretty sure the players are coming to realize this more each day . It will all come to a head before long.

 

I don't think that there is much question at all that analytics have and are continuing to change the game. Some will say for the good and some will say just the opposite. A concept that initially has been used to help clubs maximize on field play is seemingly now being used as a useful tool for owners to help keep salaries down. Collusion with respect to owners and the way they are spending has been suggested but it kind of looks like they are using a useful tool to help shape the future of the game.

[moonslav59]

What they did after the signing. That's exactly why the dollar values seem so inflated. They're real values in the sense that they measure what teams are paying on average to a free agent for a win. So it includes all the dead money like Pablo.

 

Actually, it makes more sense by including the dead money, because it counts all the money spent for such little return, thereby inflating the dollars value per WAR.

 

To me, it's not a useful practice. It's basically saying all players are worth what some dumb GMs pay for aged and declining players post signing performances.

[Bellhorn04]

Actually, it makes more sense by including the dead money, because it counts all the money spent for such little return, thereby inflating the dollars value per WAR.

 

To me, it's not a useful practice. It's basically saying all players are worth what some dumb GMs pay for aged and declining players post signing performances.

 

It's not really saying what players are worth, although that's the way we tend to interpret it. Once you understand what it really represents you look at it differently. That's my take, anyway.

[moonslav59]

It's not really saying what players are worth, although that's the way we tend to interpret it. Once you understand what it really represents you look at it differently. That's my take, anyway.

 

I agree. It over inflates everybody's "value" due to big money being spent on negative WAR guys being a major factor in the equation.

[Kimmi]

Personally, I'm a fan of most things Fangraphs, including their WAR to dollars conversion.

[Maxbialystock]

I missed the specifics on WAR vs. $$ value, but have looked at baseball reference for a few players--

 

In 8 seasons, JDM's accumulated WAR is 20.4, and his total salary is $45.7M, about $2.2M per WAR of 1. His WAR last year was 6.4 and his salary $23.8M, which is close to what his salary will be this year. .

 

In 5 seasons, Mookie's accumulated WAR is 35.2, and his total salary is $12.5M, about $350K per WAR of 1 and a huge savings for the Sox. This year, his arbitration salary will be $20M.

 

In 11 seasons, Pablo Sandoval's accumulated WAR is 18.4 and total salary is $71.8M--the complete reverse of Mookie and strong evidence for why GM's are more and more reluctant to pay a lot for a little. About $4M per WAR of 1.

 

In 14 seasons, Hanley Ramirez accumulated WAR is 38.1 vs. a total salary of $159.2M. About $4M per WAR of 1.

 

Bryce Harper, 7 seasons, accumulated WAR 27.4 vs. total salary of $47.4M, about $1.7M per WAR of 1. His average WAR per season is 27.4/7= 4. If he gets $300M for 10 years and averages a WAR of 4, that's a salary of over $7M per WAR of 1.

 

Manny Machado, 7 seasons, total WAR of 33.8, total salary of $34M, about $1M/WAR.

 

Albert Pujols, 18 seasons, accumulated WAR of 100, total salary of $257M, about $2.5M per WAR of 1.

 

Worth noting: at St Louis, 11 season, accumulated WAR of 86.6, total salary of $104M, about $1.2M per WAR of 1.

At LA an accumulated WAR of 13.5 and a total salary of $153M, about $11M per WAR of 1.

[dgalehouse]

In the words of General Sherman ; " WAR is hell ."

[Maxbialystock]

In the words of General Sherman ; " WAR is hell ."

 

Thanks for the reminder because my intent is to wage WAR for as long as it takes.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury: 11 seasons, accumulated WAR, 31.1; total salary, $105.3M, which is $3.4M per WAR of 1.

 

Benintendi: 3 season, accumulated WAR, 7; total salary $1.17M, which is $160K per WAR of 1.

 

Alex Rodriguez, 22 seasons, accumulated WAR of 118, total salar of $396M, which is $3.38M per WAR of 1.

 

Looking back, I think we have a pretty nice shot group of ARod, Pablo, Hanley and Jake: all are right around $3-4M per WAR of 1.

 

They would be dwarfed, however, by Bryce Harper if had taken the $300M for 10 years and averaged the same WAR of 4 he has averaged in 7 years. Because then his $$ per WAR of 1 would have been $7M

 

Scott Boras can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned. He's selling sugar water and calling it the elixir of life. And he's got not only the players parroting his philosophy, but some sports writers too.

[BillyWilliams]

Thanks for the reminder because my intent is to wage WAR for as long as it takes.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury: 11 seasons, accumulated WAR, 31.1; total salary, $105.3M, which is $3.4M per WAR of 1.

 

Benintendi: 3 season, accumulated WAR, 7; total salary $1.17M, which is $160K per WAR of 1.

 

Alex Rodriguez, 22 seasons, accumulated WAR of 118, total salar of $396M, which is $3.38M per WAR of 1.

 

Looking back, I think we have a pretty nice shot group of ARod, Pablo, Hanley and Jake: all are right around $3-4M per WAR of 1.

 

They would be dwarfed, however, by Bryce Harper if had taken the $300M for 10 years and averaged the same WAR of 4 he has averaged in 7 years. Because then his $$ per WAR of 1 would have been $7M

 

Scott Boras can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned. He's selling sugar water and calling it the elixir of life. And he's got not only the players parroting his philosophy, but some sports writers too.

 

He's doing his job which is to get the most money he can for his clients.

[Bellhorn04]

Thanks for the reminder because my intent is to wage WAR for as long as it takes.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury: 11 seasons, accumulated WAR, 31.1; total salary, $105.3M, which is $3.4M per WAR of 1.

 

Benintendi: 3 season, accumulated WAR, 7; total salary $1.17M, which is $160K per WAR of 1.

 

Alex Rodriguez, 22 seasons, accumulated WAR of 118, total salar of $396M, which is $3.38M per WAR of 1.

 

Looking back, I think we have a pretty nice shot group of ARod, Pablo, Hanley and Jake: all are right around $3-4M per WAR of 1.

 

They would be dwarfed, however, by Bryce Harper if had taken the $300M for 10 years and averaged the same WAR of 4 he has averaged in 7 years. Because then his $$ per WAR of 1 would have been $7M

 

Scott Boras can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned. He's selling sugar water and calling it the elixir of life. And he's got not only the players parroting his philosophy, but some sports writers too.

 

What you're doing is not without merit. But you have to keep in mind the system is set up so that players make peanuts their first few years.

 

Free agents are more expensive because you need them and you don't have any equivalent internally.

 

It's true, though, that Harper's average WAR is a little light for what he expects to be paid.

[dgalehouse]

I don't really have a problem with WAR and the other analytics . I just don't get too excited over it all . The way I see it , you have websites trying to make a buck . They employ some very smart geeks who love to play around with numbers . And they come up with things like WAR . And that's okay . There are a million stats around these days . Some are real , some are not . WAR is not a real stat . It is a contrived stat , a manufactured stat . But many people swear by it . Fine . No problem .

[Bellhorn04]

I don't really have a problem with WAR and the other analytics . I just don't get too excited over it all . The way I see it , you have websites trying to make a buck . They employ some very smart geeks who love to play around with numbers . And they come up with things like WAR . And that's okay . There are a million stats around these days . Some are real , some are not . WAR is not a real stat . It is a contrived stat , a manufactured stat . But many people swear by it . Fine . No problem .

 

I like the idea behind WAR, which is to measure the total value of a player. With a position player you have hitting, defense and base running all rolled in there.

[Kimmi]

I am one who gets excited by analytics. IMO, they very much enhance my enjoyment and understanding of the game.

[notin]

WAR is not a real stat . It is a contrived stat , a manufactured stat . But many people swear by it . Fine . No problem .

 

 

Arguably stats like batting average are contrived, and frankly, misunderstood.

 

Not to mention, stupidly titled. I mean, it’s not an average, it’s a percentage. (And to make it weirder, it’s slugging percentage is not a percentage; it’s an average.)