Regularly using relievers as starters

[Maxbialystock]

The Ray manager has done a lot of that this season and it carries two big advantages without, as far as I can tell, any downside. 1. He forces opposing managers to commit to a lineup that can't be lefty or righty heavy--or can be at that manager's peril (unless he has a lot of switch hitters). 2. By also using several pitchers but having one of them for 3 or 4 innings, he also denies opposing lineups the opportunity to face the same pitcher three or more times and sometimes even twice.

 

I don't think I've seen this done before, and it does seem to be working.

[OH FOY]

If it works, you save a ton of Money on Starters. Maybe have 2 good starters, and work the BP, I guess.

[jung]

Nobody will try this IMO unless forced to it. Cash has been forced to it and has done a great job with it IMO.

 

I don't like using a serious late innings arm in the first inning unless at home and trying to keep your anemic hitting team from having to take their first AB's already down in the game, possibly enough to rob them of some of the tools an anemic hitting team would use to try to generate some runs. So other than that, it's fine in a pinch. It does help that regardless of all the news about pitchers throwing 98, I think what is more interesting is the number of pitchers throwing an assortment of hooks and changes. The Curve is back in a big way for one thing.

 

The other component of relief pitching that your pitchers better feature if you are going to do something like what Cash has done is they need to have resilient arms. Additionally, the times you run a starter out there, he better not collapse early as that could throw off your plans for a week.

[Maxbialystock]

Nobody will try this IMO unless forced to it. Cash has been forced to it and has done a great job with it IMO.

 

I don't like using a serious late innings arm in the first inning unless at home and trying to keep your anemic hitting team from having to take their first AB's already down in the game, possibly enough to rob them of some of the tools an anemic hitting team would use to try to generate some runs. So other than that, it's fine in a pinch. It does help that regardless of all the news about pitchers throwing 98, I think what is more interesting is the number of pitchers throwing an assortment of hooks and changes. The Curve is back in a big way for one thing.

 

The other component of relief pitching that your pitchers better feature if you are going to do something like what Cash has done is they need to have resilient arms. Additionally, the times you run a starter out there, he better not collapse early as that could throw off your plans for a week.

 

You realize, I hope, that we have had our share of starters give up early runs. I honestly can't see why a decent reliever can't get safely thru inning 1 and maybe all or part of inning 2. As for the long reliever who gets inserted, he only has to go to 3 or 4 innings, depending.

 

I entirely agree that you would need a bunch of healthy arms on the pitching staff, but even that is mitigated by having a minimum of 12 arms and the ability to rotate one or more them from the big club to AAA and back as needed. Most if not all MLB clubs do that a lot already.

 

However, yesterday Tampa used 4 pitchers, including the one guy who went 4 innings. I don't see how you can do that consistently with just 12 pitchers even with the availability of AAA help now and then.

 

Nevertheless, Cash has apparently made that work for just about all of this season. Brilliant.

[Bellhorn04]

I honestly can't see why a decent reliever can't get safely thru inning 1 and maybe all or part of inning 2.

 

Sorry Max but this cracked me up.

[notin]

A few years ago, both KC and TB simultaneously experimented with limiting starters to 4 or 5 IP and relying on the bullpen. It worked well for both as they were in the top 3 in AL ERA. Tampa then broke up their bullpen in a trade and fell apart. KC, however, went to the World Series...

[jung]

A few years ago, both KC and TB simultaneously experimented with limiting starters to 4 or 5 IP and relying on the bullpen. It worked well for both as they were in the top 3 in AL ERA. Tampa then broke up their bullpen in a trade and fell apart. KC, however, went to the World Series...

 

KC had a great bullpen, not just good but great and they had the most resilient arm in baseball for a couple of years...Davis...who had an incredibly resilient arm like a rubber band. He could do anything for about two years as a relief pitcher. By the time they got to the post season they were just throwing him into everything. Back to backs, multiple innings...didn't matter. Not sure I can remember seeing anything quite like it since Dick Radatz here.

[illinoisredsox]

It works so long until one of the relievers doesn't have it on a given day. And the more arms you trot out there, the more likley it is that one of them doesn't have it, especially since you can't use your top pen guys to do it.

[sk7326]

KC had a great bullpen, not just good but great and they had the most resilient arm in baseball for a couple of years...Davis...who had an incredibly resilient arm like a rubber band. He could do anything for about two years as a relief pitcher. By the time they got to the post season they were just throwing him into everything. Back to backs, multiple innings...didn't matter. Not sure I can remember seeing anything quite like it since Dick Radatz here.

 

Rubber armed Wade Davis pitched 72 and 67 innings in both of the Royals' World Series runs, roughly an inning per appearance ...

 

The last sentence of the post misspelled Keith Foulke (who exceeded Davis' inning total and innings per appearance every year through 2004, and it is hard to forget his damn near heroic postseason)

[mvp 78]

KC had a great bullpen, not just good but great and they had the most resilient arm in baseball for a couple of years...Davis...who had an incredibly resilient arm like a rubber band. He could do anything for about two years as a relief pitcher. By the time they got to the post season they were just throwing him into everything. Back to backs, multiple innings...didn't matter. Not sure I can remember seeing anything quite like it since Dick Radatz here.

 

Wade Davis 2014 Postseason: 12 Games, 14.1 Innings

 

Keith Foulke 2004 Postseason: 11 Games, 14 Innings

 

C'mon man...

[Bellhorn04]

Wade Davis 2014 Postseason: 12 Games, 14.1 Innings

 

Keith Foulke 2004 Postseason: 11 Games, 14 Innings

 

C'mon man...

 

In Games 4/5/6 of the ALCS Foulke threw 100 pitches in 3 days.

 

No wonder his arm wasn't quite the same after that.

[mvp 78]

In Games 4/5/6 of the ALCS Foulke threw 100 pitches in 3 days.

 

No wonder his arm wasn't quite the same after that.

 

But Wade Davis tho! He should be in the HOF just because of those WS runs!

[Maxbialystock]

It works so long until one of the relievers doesn't have it on a given day. And the more arms you trot out there, the more likley it is that one of them doesn't have it, especially since you can't use your top pen guys to do it.

 

All true. You do need a pretty darn good bullpen. But what I like about this approach is that it's innovative and based on two pretty sound ideas--

 

1. When you start with a short term reliever, you force the opposing manager to commit to a lineup which can't be based on the strengths and weaknesses of your starting pitcher.

 

2. By limiting the number innings, even for the long reliever, to 3 or 4 innings, you ensure none of your pitchers will fact that lineup for 3 at bats and usually for just 1 at bat.

 

I absolute agree this would not work for everyone, but like it because it has helped the Rays survive with a weak rotation. And it's innovative, which is a rarity these days.