Stanton or Votto

[moonslav59]

Xander Bogaerts may well have diminished trade value after a somewhat disappointing season but the 25-year-old shortstop certainly has trade value after posting a combined 12.5 fWAR the past three years.

 

I doubt his value diminished much at all.

[moonslav59]

Nobody wants Bogey. He's already in his 2nd year of arbitration. Sox will NOT get anything in value. Similar to Pedey. You couldn't even give Pedey away without even NOT getting a player in return. THINK ABOUT THAT!

 

Nobody wants the 4th best SS WAR guy over the last 3 years combined, and who is making arb money NOT free agent money.

 

Are you serious?

[sk7326]

Xander Bogaerts may well have diminished trade value after a somewhat disappointing season but the 25-year-old shortstop certainly has trade value after posting a combined 12.5 fWAR the past three years.

 

I suspect the industry take is that last year was injury related and they will try to swindle the Sox.

[moonslav59]

I suspect the industry take is that last year was injury related and they will try to swindle the Sox.

 

Then, we say no and trade JBJ instead.

 

I'm not for handing any of our players away for less than their value, but we should explore all avenues on obtaining Stanton.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

In 2017, Bogaerts had a 95 OPS+ and was below average in the field for a second year in a row. Sure, he has value, but his trade value is going to be impacted by his 2017 season. In general, major league teams don't like trading for players who are trending downwards. He could have a big comeback season; or he could be even worse in 2018. It is fair to assume that his trade value has been impacted by his 2017 season. I wouldn't do it. This isn't the time to trade Bogaerts--the return won't be there.

[mvp 78]

In 2017, Bogaerts had a 95 OPS+ and was below average in the field for a second year in a row. Sure, he has value, but his trade value is going to be impacted by his 2017 season. In general, major league teams don't like trading for players who are trending downwards. He could have a big comeback season; or he could be even worse in 2018. It is fair to assume that his trade value has been impacted by his 2017 season. I wouldn't do it. This isn't the time to trade Bogaerts--the return won't be there.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=12161&position=SS

 

12th in the league in defensive WAR for SS. Cozart is 9th and he's a guy people are drooling over for some reason.

 

His defensive misgivings are overstated. It's not 2014 anymore. He's solid, but not spectacular.

[Slasher9]

Stanton. 1 million billion percent.

Giancarlo freakin stanton. Please. Please dd. Make this happen.

Thank you.

[moonslav59]

Cozart is 9th and he's a guy people are drooling over for some reason.

 

Maybe it's the better-than-Bogey defense, the .385 OBP and the .548 SLG.

 

24 HRs in 122 games isn't bad either.

[moonslav59]

Stanton. 1 million billion percent.

Giancarlo freakin stanton. Please. Please dd. Make this happen.

Thank you.

 

I feel pretty close to how I felt with Sale. Guys like Stanton only become available once in a long, long time.

 

We're talking about...

 

Giancarlo Freakin' Stanton!

 

Now, I want to know what they want in return, but I'm all ears, and I'm seeking ways to get the prospects they will want, even if it means trading JBJ or Bogey.

[S5Dewey]

Two things concern me about Stanton. I don't want to be trading away JBJ or Bogaerts for a guy whom we're going to be paying millions of dollars for and who's going to walk in a couple of years. In order for me to be interested in Stanton that Opt Out clause has to go.

 

Also, whether his injuries are related or not, this guy has missed significant time in three consecutive years. That's Ellsbury-esque and I can remember that many posters on BDC wanted to be the ones boiling the tar and bringing the feathers to run Ells out of Boston. How many times does a player have to have unrelated injuries before he becomes injury-prone?

 

There's nothing we can do about the injuries and I'd (probably) swallow hard and make a trade involving one of the B's, but only without the opt out. Both together is too big a gamble. It reminds me of a young lady I knew once. She was very pretty and great in the sack, which make it easy to overlook the fact that she had a disposition like a pit viper. Sometimes it's easy to overlook shortcomings during the good times but sooner or later those bad times will come back to bite you on the ass.

[sk7326]

Cozart is 9th and he's a guy people are drooling over for some reason.

 

Maybe it's the better-than-Bogey defense, the .385 OBP and the .548 SLG.

 

24 HRs in 122 games isn't bad either.

 

32 years old with zero history of that level of production before - big time fluke rule candidate

[moonslav59]

Two things concern me about Stanton. I don't want to be trading away JBJ or Bogaerts for a guy whom we're going to be paying millions of dollars for and who's going to walk in a couple of years. In order for me to be interested in Stanton that Opt Out clause has to go.

 

Also, whether his injuries are related or not, this guy has missed significant time in three consecutive years. That's Ellsbury-esque and I can remember that many posters on BDC wanted to be the ones boiling the tar and bringing the feathers to run Ells out of Boston. How many times does a player have to have unrelated injuries before he becomes injury-prone?

 

There's nothing we can do about the injuries and I'd (probably) swallow hard and make a trade involving one of the B's, but only without the opt out. Both together is too big a gamble. It reminds me of a young lady I knew once. She was very pretty and great in the sack, which make it easy to overlook the fact that she had a disposition like a pit viper. Sometimes it's easy to overlook shortcomings during the good times but sooner or later those bad times will come back to bite you on the ass.

 

Good points.

 

Stanton did play 159 games this year. One injury was from getting hit by a pitch, so I wouldn't count that as being "injury prone".

 

I am a bit concerned about injury, but I am more concerned with JD Martinez's health.

[mvp 78]

32 years old with zero history of that level of production before - big time fluke rule candidate

 

Total fluke. No chance he does that the next two years.

[Dojji]

Then, we say no and trade JBJ instead.

 

I'm not for handing any of our players away for less than their value, but we should explore all avenues on obtaining Stanton.

 

No, we shouldn't. We might do it anyway, but Giancarlo Stanton is not a panacea. It's entirely possible to pay more for him than he's worth.

 

Personally I am keeping an eye on Eric Hosmer. He's not Stanton, but he'd be an upgrade on both sides of the ball and contract talks with the Royals seem troubled, we may be able to get our toe in and steel the guy, and he's really good, one of the major heroes of the Royals' 2015 postseason and 2014 near miss. If our problem is in the postseason, Hosmer looks to me like he'd be very helpful.

[moonslav59]

No, we shouldn't. We might do it anyway, but Giancarlo Stanton is not a panacea. It's entirely possible to pay more for him than he's worth.

 

Personally I am keeping an eye on Eric Hosmer. He's not Stanton, but he'd be an upgrade on both sides of the ball and contract talks with the Royals seem troubled, we may be able to get our toe in and steel the guy, and he's really good, one of the major heroes of the Royals' 2015 postseason and 2014 near miss. If our problem is in the postseason, Hosmer looks to me like he'd be very helpful.

 

Hosmer is near the bottom of my list. He will want and get at least 3 years- probably 4-5. He's not the guy I want to have at 1B for that long. He's not good fielder, and he's been up and down like a yo-yo.

 

Duda can probably be had for 1 year. He has better numbers over the last 4 years. He's no good on D either, but he has the best 1Bman ISO over the last 4 years.

 

We need power. Hosmer looks like 2017 might have been a fluke.

[Larry Cook]

The single biggest need in the Red Sox for next year is a veteran leader! An experienced veteran to hold the other players in the locker room accountable, someone to focus them, someone to motivate them to want to win, someone to teach them how to bring the intensity while avoiding distractions and most of all someone to provide leadership!

 

This past season was a pathetic display of numbness and distraction by our hitters,

 

Now I understand that pedroia fractured the clubhouse and caused irreversible tension and distraction in the room that lingered throughout the year. The fact that we lacked a veteran leader that could bring everybody together and discuss it and move the team past it was very sad and totally avoidable.

 

The best clubhouse leader in all of baseball is Votto. But I do not know if we want to spend the prospect capital to acquire him.

 

Stanton is not the guy,

 

So time to look for plan b.

[moonslav59]

The single biggest need in the Red Sox for next year is a veteran leader! An experienced veteran to hold the other players in the locker room accountable, someone to focus them, someone to motivate them to want to win, someone to teach them how to bring the intensity while avoiding distractions and most of all someone to provide leadership!

 

This past season was a pathetic display of numbness and distraction by our hitters,

 

Now I understand that pedroia fractured the clubhouse and caused irreversible tension and distraction in the room that lingered throughout the year. The fact that we lacked a veteran leader that could bring everybody together and discuss it and move the team past it was very sad and totally avoidable.

 

The best clubhouse leader in all of baseball is Votto. But I do not know if we want to spend the prospect capital to acquire him.

 

Stanton is not the guy,

 

So time to look for plan b.

 

Votto has said over and over that he does not want to leave Cincy. He has a no trade clause.

 

I think he's a pipe dream.

 

Just curious, what makes you think Votto is the best clubhouse guy in all of MLB?

[Larry Cook]

Votto has said over and over that he does not want to leave Cincy. He has a no trade clause.

 

I think he's a pipe dream.

 

Just curious, what makes you think Votto is the best clubhouse guy in all of MLB?

 

Everything that has been said and written about him.

 

And while votto may not want to leave Cincy, the fact remains, he is a competitor, a warrior. Winning is important to him, we offer him that chance and his position is a position of need,

 

All that being said however, we do not have the prospect capital to make this happen.

 

So we need a veteran who can come into our fractured clubhouse and command respect from day one and has some power and plays a position of need,

[moonslav59]

Everything that has been said and written about him.

 

And while votto may not want to leave Cincy, the fact remains, he is a competitor, a warrior. Winning is important to him, we offer him that chance and his position is a position of need,

 

All that being said however, we do not have the prospect capital to make this happen.

 

So we need a veteran who can come into our fractured clubhouse and command respect from day one and has some power and plays a position of need,

 

"Everything written?"

 

This article seems to hint that the Cincy media was complaining about the lack of leadership in the Reds clubhouse:

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/redsblog/2015/02/24/joey-votto-says-reds-full-of-leaders/23959477/

 

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Votto's leadership skills, and I'm not doubting the fact that we have a void in that area after Papi's departure, but I was just curious about why you felt he is the very best. I never heard anything about it, but then a again, I wasn't looking at the Cincy clubhouse or media outlets.

[Larry Cook]

Would Carlos Santana work for us? He may not be a power hitter per se.

 

But his on base is consistently over .350.

[jacksonianmarch]

Here's what I think guys.

 

Votto isn't leaving for Boston. He just isn't. The Reds are getting MVP level production out of him still, so they would need to be bowled over and the sox don't have that kind of prospect haul. Also, there is no guarantee that Votto accepts a deal to Boston. Heck, if the guy really likes the small town of Cincy, why would he want to leave to go to Boston? Also, he is 34 and eventually will turn into a pumpkin. I doubt you want to deplete anything you have and have 2018 be the year he finally craters.

 

Stanton is intriguing, but getting Stanton effectively closes your offseason. It does so with a bang for sure, but it creates other issues and leaves you without the money to spend to fix it. I honestly think you need to give up Bradley or Bogaerts to get Stanton. Those guys aren't on minimum deals anymore, but they are still somewhat cheap through arb. Replacing them on the open market will be pricey. I think the sox are better off signing Martinez and keeping the rest of the team intact

[jacksonianmarch]

Would Carlos Santana work for us? He may not be a power hitter per se.

 

But his on base is consistently over .350.

 

Santana would work for you guys. I want the Yankees to get him. But I think you need a hitter who is better than Santana to revive your offense. You need a 1+ OPS guy, a guy capable of hitting 40 homers. Santana is a nice hitter, one who will elongate the lineup. In Boston, he is probably a .850OPS and 25HR guy. That's damn good, but I don't think it truly replaces Papi, who went un-replaced in 2017. Martinez will replace him

[Larry Cook]

Santana would work for you guys. I want the Yankees to get him. But I think you need a hitter who is better than Santana to revive your offense. You need a 1+ OPS guy, a guy capable of hitting 40 homers. Santana is a nice hitter, one who will elongate the lineup. In Boston, he is probably a .850OPS and 25HR guy. That's damn good, but I don't think it truly replaces Papi, who went un-replaced in 2017. Martinez will replace him

 

Sox will have tons of competition for Martinez.

[jacksonianmarch]

Sox will have tons of competition for Martinez.

 

They have a lot of money and dealin Dan doesn't miss when he targets someone

[Thunder]

I don't think we should get either one of them

[Bellhorn04]

Everything that has been said and written about him.

 

And while votto may not want to leave Cincy, the fact remains, he is a competitor, a warrior. Winning is important to him, we offer him that chance and his position is a position of need,

 

 

If Votto really cared about winning he would want to leave Cincy, a lot. Their best season in the last 3 is 68-94!

 

Maybe he's more comfortable with losing than you realize.

[moonslav59]

Here's what I think guys.

 

Votto isn't leaving for Boston. He just isn't. The Reds are getting MVP level production out of him still, so they would need to be bowled over and the sox don't have that kind of prospect haul. Also, there is no guarantee that Votto accepts a deal to Boston. Heck, if the guy really likes the small town of Cincy, why would he want to leave to go to Boston? Also, he is 34 and eventually will turn into a pumpkin. I doubt you want to deplete anything you have and have 2018 be the year he finally craters.

 

Stanton is intriguing, but getting Stanton effectively closes your offseason. It does so with a bang for sure, but it creates other issues and leaves you without the money to spend to fix it. I honestly think you need to give up Bradley or Bogaerts to get Stanton. Those guys aren't on minimum deals anymore, but they are still somewhat cheap through arb. Replacing them on the open market will be pricey. I think the sox are better off signing Martinez and keeping the rest of the team intact

 

Getting Stanton does not "close our off season". His luxury tax hit is $25M, and we apparently have $40M to spend and not reach the second penalty phase.

 

That's $15M, which might get us Cozart or Cobb or maybe two guys like Duda and Kendrick/Nunez. Heck, Santana might go for $15M.

 

Henry might even allow us to go over $40M in additional spending. The extra penalty is just dropping 10 picks in the draft for round one.

[Jack Flap]

Would Carlos Santana work for us? He may not be a power hitter per se.

 

But his on base is consistently over .350.

 

I'd be happy with him if we don't sign Martinez.

[Dojji]

Hosmer is near the bottom of my list. He will want and get at least 3 years- probably 4-5. He's not the guy I want to have at 1B for that long. He's not good fielder, and he's been up and down like a yo-yo.

 

He's also done most of his hitting in one of the bigger pitcher's parks in the AL. Move him to a hitter's park and surround him with better offensive talent and I think those numbers get better. If we want a playoff leader, the list doesn't start with Duda -- or with Votto or Stanton for that matter, since I don't think either one has sniffed the playoffs.

 

as for the years he wants the dude is 27 years old, it's not particularly unreasonable to expect him to be productive through his age 31 season, is it?

 

We don't need a revolutionary bat, just an above average guy who can hit 4th and extend the lineup a bit. Our lineup was right around league average, small upgrades will be enough to push it into the range where we need it to be. Going ham after a big thumper is going to work against that, especially an older one like Votto in particular.

 

 

 

Duda can probably be had for 1 year. He has better numbers over the last 4 years. He's no good on D either, but he has the best 1Bman ISO over the last 4 years.

 

In the American League, Duda is a DH. That's not what we need. Also I don't want an over-30 who put up 1.1 WAR last year between NYM and TBR. I looked at Duda when considering who I'd want to see the Sox bring in and decided to stay the hell away. If a guy can manage to hit 30 HR's and put up only 1.1 bWAR, I don't even know how that's done, and I'd rather not find out the expensive way.

 

We need power. Hosmer looks like 2017 might have been a fluke.[/b]

 

You would not say that of any other hitter who put up that performance in his age 27 season, I guaran-fracking-tee it.

[moonslav59]

He's also done most of his hitting in one of the bigger pitcher's parks in the AL. Move him to a hitter's park and surround him with better offensive talent and I think those numbers get better. If we want a playoff leader, the list doesn't start with Duda -- or with Votto or Stanton for that matter, since I don't think either one has sniffed the playoffs.

 

as for the years he wants the dude is 27 years old, it's not particularly unreasonable to expect him to be productive through his age 31 season, is it?

 

We don't need a revolutionary bat, just an above average guy who can hit 4th and extend the lineup a bit. Our lineup was right around league average, small upgrades will be enough to push it into the range where we need it to be. Going ham after a big thumper is going to work against that, especially an older one like Votto in particular.

 

 

 

 

 

In the American League, Duda is a DH. That's not what we need. Also I don't want an over-30 who put up 1.1 WAR last year between NYM and TBR. I looked at Duda when considering who I'd want to see the Sox bring in and decided to stay the hell away. If a guy can manage to hit 30 HR's and put up only 1.1 bWAR, I don't even know how that's done, and I'd rather not find out the expensive way.

 

 

 

You would not say that of any other hitter who put up that performance in his age 27 season, I guaran-fracking-tee it.

 

I'd get physically sick, if we sign Hosmer to 4+ years.

 

1B (or DH, if HRam can play 1B) is where we have the best chance to get a big boost.

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about Hosmer based on 2017. He's been under .765 in 2 of the last 4 seasons.

 

While his defense is better than Duda, he's been a negative UZR/150 guy the last 2 years and is -4.1 career at 1B.

 

This isn't the guy you sign to such a key offensive position for 4 or more years.

 

Don'y guarantee anything about what I say about a player based on 1 year. My MO has been pretty consistently about a player's last 3-4 year numbers, unless they are 23-25 years old.

 

Both Hosmer and Duda are risky signings. I'll go with the 1 year guy and then go all out for Machado next year and move Devers to 1B, where he likely belongs anyways.

 

BTW, Hosmer might end up at DH, if Devers fails on defense at 3B.