Who gets sent packing?

[Kimmi]

I don't get why people are so anxious to get rid of Pablo before he's been given a fair chance this year. I get that if he continues to stink it up, he needs to go. But it sounds to me like some are hoping that he continues to stink just so we can get rid of him. At the very least, there are some that don't even want to give him another chance.

 

It would be in the best interest of this team if Pablo comes back and plays well. Don't root against him.

[Dojji]

I don't get why people are so anxious to get rid of Pablo before he's been given a fair chance this year.

 

 

Kimmi.... listen, I appreciate your loyalty to this guy, but Pablo Sandoval came into this year needing to go out of his way to prove something. He needed to show he could still be a professional ballplayer that could stay healthy and be effective. He needed to do something immediately to restore our faith. We haven't been short of patience with the guy, a lot of us were pulling for him this year, but it's been 2+ years, if he wants to win us over, he needed to start in April

Not being on the field in this situation due to wear and tear based injury is not called "not getting a chance." It's called "player not fit for active service." He's lost weight but he's still too big. He can't count on youthful healing to repair the extra wear and tear his body is put under by the extra pounds he's carrying. And even if he was at his ideal weight right now, that doesn't erase the damage his weight has already done, all the extra wear and tear on his joints and back. That stuff adds up, I know this only too well.

 

Pablo was on his last chance going into this year for most of us. This team gave Pablo a big fat chance by not keeping Travis Shaw, who, let's be honest, was outplaying Sandoval last year in the short time the competition was relevant, would probably have outplayed Sandoval this year even if Sandoval was healthy, and even factoring in Shaw's huge slump last Augist and September Shaw was by far the better baseball player in the snapshot of time that was the opening of the 2017 season.

 

They cleared that guy out of the way so that Pablo could play, they took a huge risk to give Pablo as good a chance as he could earn and even risked exposing themselves massively at third base to do it. In a year in which they felt themselves to be on top of the league and had a hell of a lot to lose no less. And he turned around and repeated the same old nonsense we've already seen. Unable to stay on the field, and even when he is on it, even when that rare bolt of lightning that is a healthy Pablo appeared, unable to stay there or produce positively for the team. At some point it's just time to stop throwing good man-games after bad and let someone else have a crack at the job.

 

There comes a point where the chances end. We have been far more patient with Pablo Sandoval than he has any real right to expect. There comes a point that we have to remember that the objective is to win baseball games, not coddle morbidly obese 32 year olds. With a third straight year of being unable to stay on the field and turning in below replacement level production even when he's there, I think it's pretty clear to the dispassionate observer that the well is dry, and further pumping of said well will just yield more salt and disappointment.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Dojji

[Fisk]

Actually, we could avoid paying the tax by DFA'ing Pablo (like Craig and Castillo) and parking him at AAA for the remainder of his contract.

 

His salary would not count against the luxury tax, if he is not on the 40 man roster.

 

I'm not advocating this choice at this point, but it could be an option at some point.

 

I see 2018 like this, with a little optimism sprinkled in...

 

Moreland departs

 

HRam and Travis share 1B duty

 

HRam and Pablo share DH duty with Pablo maybe playing only vs some/most RHPs.

 

Devers and Pablo share 3B duty with Devers playing near FT.

 

4 players for corner IF/DH.

 

Marco, Marrero and Rutledge (Holt, if he ever returns) fight it out for the utility IF position.

 

Can't do that with Pablo has to much service time.

[Kingface]

Pablo will be on this team for the remainder of this season.......no questions asked. He's not getting traded. He's also not going to be DH with HanRam, he's not going to split time at 1B with HanRam (HanRam already said he's done with 1B) and he will not be playing for the PawSox unless he's injured. Notice I said "this season". I really think the Sox are hoping he starts playing very well because they would LOVE to trade him this offseason if he can het his stock up a bit. Devers is the future and the Sox would love for that to happen. Devers however will NOT be with the Sox this season. He will eventually get called up to AAA maybe but they will not rush the kid. Next year I see him starting in AAA and maybe being a late season call up.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

To win a W.S. this year, the Red Sox will need Hanley and Sandoval to produce (with no Ortiz). As far as Sandoval goes, Wednesday night was very encouraging. I would definitely platoon Sandoval, keep him out of the lineup against lefties and start him exclusively against righties. By platooning Sandoval, the Red Sox increase the odds of keeping him healthy.

 

And it sounds like Farrell plans to platoon him--Sandoval is out of the lineup tonight against the lefty. Smart decision.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Spudboy]

Kimmi.... listen, I appreciate your loyalty to this guy, but Pablo Sandoval came into this year needing to go out of his way to prove something. He needed to show he could still be a professional ballplayer that could stay healthy and be effective. He needed to do something immediately to restore our faith. We haven't been short of patience with the guy, a lot of us were pulling for him this year, but it's been 2+ years, if he wants to win us over, he needed to start in April

Not being on the field in this situation due to wear and tear based injury is not called "not getting a chance." It's called "player not fit for active service." He's lost weight but he's still too big. He can't count on youthful healing to repair the extra wear and tear his body is put under by the extra pounds he's carrying. And even if he was at his ideal weight right now, that doesn't erase the damage his weight has already done, all the extra wear and tear on his joints and back. That stuff adds up, I know this only too well.

 

Pablo was on his last chance going into this year for most of us. This team gave Pablo a big fat chance by not keeping Travis Shaw, who, let's be honest, was outplaying Sandoval last year in the short time the competition was relevant, would probably have outplayed Sandoval this year even if Sandoval was healthy, and even factoring in Shaw's huge slump last Augist and September Shaw was by far the better baseball player in the snapshot of time that was the opening of the 2017 season.

 

They cleared that guy out of the way so that Pablo could play, they took a huge risk to give Pablo as good a chance as he could earn and even risked exposing themselves massively at third base to do it. In a year in which they felt themselves to be on top of the league and had a hell of a lot to lose no less. And he turned around and repeated the same old nonsense we've already seen. Unable to stay on the field, and even when he is on it, even when that rare bolt of lightning that is a healthy Pablo appeared, unable to stay there or produce positively for the team. At some point it's just time to stop throwing good man-games after bad and let someone else have a crack at the job.

 

There comes a point where the chances end. We have been far more patient with Pablo Sandoval than he has any real right to expect. There comes a point that we have to remember that the objective is to win baseball games, not coddle morbidly obese 32 year olds. With a third straight year of being unable to stay on the field and turning in below replacement level production even when he's there, I think it's pretty clear to the dispassionate observer that the well is dry, and further pumping of said well will just yield more salt and disappointment.

 

Oh but he had 3 hits last night!

[Spudboy]

To win a W.S. this year, the Red Sox will need Hanley and Sandoval to produce (with no Ortiz). As far as Sandoval goes, Wednesday night was very encouraging. I would definitely platoon Sandoval, keep him out of the lineup against lefties and start him exclusively against righties. By platooning Sandoval, the Red Sox increase the odds of keeping him healthy.

 

And it sounds like Farrell plans to platoon him--Sandoval is out of the lineup tonight against the lefty. Smart decision.

 

5 year $96. mil. contracts for platoon hitters are a great idea!!!!!1!!!

[sk7326]

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html

 

The money is gone. It's guaranteed. He will get his money no matter what, period. You can't get that money back. That means it doesn't even MATTER to rational decision making. You have to write that money off and do what's best for the team and DD is not doing that by compounding the problem of the lost money by letting Sandoval keep playing BELOW REPLACEMENT LEVEL ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL.

 

Sandoval is literally providing negative value even if you ignore the sunk cost, and players who are actually moderately useful, such as Rutledge, Marrero and Travis are on the chopping block as a result. idiotic. Literally counterproductive in several different ways.

 

The only reason to keep playing Sandoval is to try to look good if he performs well. Given 2.5 years of complete nonproductive play the odds of successfully "turning him around" are microscopic, and doing it for sheer preening points is moronic in light of the opportunity cost of either losing an infielder or having to demote a guy who's red hot at the plate. FFS the executive who signed the guy has already fallen on his sword. There is nothing to salvage here. Let Panda fall through the cracks and put an actual baseball player in his place.

 

Executives of a top baseball organization need to use brain on world better than this. AXE THIS GUY ALREADY.

 

It's a sunk cost. At the same time, nobody has created separation there either. So - a rotation makes sense on some level. Ultimately, players make these decisions.

[Dojji]

It's Sandoval's literal and only job to create separation at the third base position and make himself the obvious choice over replacement level options like Marrero. When a literal replacement player (Marrero) represented an objective upgrade over a player, the player in question has already spectacularly failed.

 

if Sandoval can't create separation between himself and that tier of player the logical response is to stop preferring him over that tier of player. Right now the difference between Marrero and Sandoval is that Marrerro has a ghost of a chance to improve. That being said it is absolutely brainless to give Sandoval preferential access to playing time at third base until he's shown he has earned it.

[Bellhorn04]

It's Sandoval's literal and only job to create separation at the third base position and make himself the obvious choice over replacement level options like Marrero. When a literal replacement player (Marrero) represented an objective upgrade over a player, the player in question has already spectacularly failed.

 

if Sandoval can't create separation between himself and that tier of player the logical response is to stop preferring him over that tier of player. Right now the difference between Marrero and Sandoval is that Marrerro has a ghost of a chance to improve. That being said it is absolutely brainless to give Sandoval preferential access to playing time at third base until he's shown he has earned it.

 

How does he show he's earned it without playing time?

[Spudboy]

How does he show he's earned it without playing time?

 

At this point he can continue to have productive at bats when given the chance.

 

At some point if he is hitting at a decent clip, throw him out to third and see how he performs.

 

Dojji makes a ton of sense in the real world.

 

But this is baseball with millionaires making dumb investments that they may not be wiling to give up on.

 

I hope Pablow comes through and has a resurgent season.

 

I just have no reason to believe that he will do that.

 

And one more thing. The Sox would be foolish to spend anything at all on a another dud like Frazier.

 

Why compound the mistake by making another mistake?

[sk7326]

It's Sandoval's literal and only job to create separation at the third base position and make himself the obvious choice over replacement level options like Marrero. When a literal replacement player (Marrero) represented an objective upgrade over a player, the player in question has already spectacularly failed.

 

if Sandoval can't create separation between himself and that tier of player the logical response is to stop preferring him over that tier of player. Right now the difference between Marrero and Sandoval is that Marrerro has a ghost of a chance to improve. That being said it is absolutely brainless to give Sandoval preferential access to playing time at third base until he's shown he has earned it.

 

Breathe. Nobody has earned anything. I think in reality this is all shuffling deck chairs while management figures out if it wants to take plunge with Devers.

[Dojji]

How does he show he's earned it without playing time?

 

I didn't say no playing time. I said no preference in playing time. He's on the roster, you might as well use him, but don't prefer him unless he's hot. Ignore the empty number that is his salary and put the best player on the field unless you have some reason not to, say a favorable matchup or a platoon split. If Sandoval performs, reward him with more work. If not? Don't.

 

If "getting him going" was gonna work it would have worked 2 1/2 years ago. Dole out playing time as and only as he earns it with his performance the last time you had no choice but to use him.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Dojji

[Dojji]

Breathe. Nobody has earned anything. I think in reality this is all shuffling deck chairs while management figures out if it wants to take plunge with Devers.

 

Before the call center I worked at closed, I had worked my butt off to earn three promotions and several pay raises. A base level worker made 9/hr. I made 10.20/hr and was bucking for another raise. I got this concession from my employer because I was a leader on my team, one of the most productive workers at the center, and was beginning to take on formal supervisory duties. In other words, I was a star player and centerpiece of the team, and keeping me happy became important.

 

However, if I am performing no better at my job than the guy making 9/hr, why would my employer keep me in harness making 10.20? Answer is they wouldn't, and after a reasonable interval if my performance did not improve, I would either be fired or asked to take a pay cut. If I want to get paid above the minimum, I need to do more than the minimum to keep justifying my wage. That's how the real world works.

 

Since they can't cut Sandoval's wage they need to cut their losses and favor the player doing the minimum for minimum wage, over the guy doing LESS than the minimum, no matter how much he's paid. Marrero is the better ROI right now, until that changes Marrero needs to be maximized, and the damage to the team's fortunes that is Pablo Sandoval, minimuzed until such time as he shows in the limited playing time he will continue to accrue, that he's ready to start performing above that minimum level.

[Spudboy]

I didn't say no playing time. I said no preference in playing time. He's on the roster, you might as well use him, but don't prefer him unless he's hot. Ignore the empty number that is his salary and put the best player on the field unless you have some reason not to, say a favorable matchup or a platoon split. If Sandoval performs, reward him with more work. If not? Don't.

 

If "getting him going" was gonna work it would have worked 2 1/2 years ago. Dole out playing time as and only as he earns it with his performance the last time you had no choice but to use him.

 

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Bellhorn04]

What we'll probably see is Pablo starting at 3B vs. RH starters, with Marrero replacing Pablo in late innings, and Marrero starting at 3B vs. LH starters.

 

As sk7326 says it's all shuffling until they decide Devers is ready.

[moonslav59]

What we'll probably see is Pablo starting at 3B vs. RH starters, with Marrero replacing Pablo in late innings, and Marrero starting at 3B vs. LH starters...

 

 

Once Pedey comes back, the Marrero vs Rutledge debate will occur on who should be Pablo's platoon at 3B.

[moonslav59]

5 year $96. mil. contracts for platoon hitters are a great idea!!!!!1!!!

 

I said the same thing when we signed CC.

[moonslav59]

It's pretty sad when we look to a guy with a .577 OPS (Marrero) or .604 OPS (Rutledge) to replace or platoon with Pablo (.696 OPS).

 

We've already used 6 guys at 3B this year, and Marrero leads the team in 3B PAs with just 70!

OPS at 3B only:

.556 Marrero

.666 Pablo (63 PAs at 3B)

.663 Rutledge (38)

.556 Marco (27)

.250 Holt (4)

.000 Selsky (1)

 

 

 

[oldtimer]

It's pretty sad when we look to a guy with a .577 OPS (Marrero) or .604 OPS (Rutledge) to replace or platoon with Pablo (.696 OPS).

 

We've already used 6 guys at 3B this year, and Marrero leads the team in 3B PAs with just 70!

OPS at 3B only:

.556 Marrero

.666 Pablo (63 PAs at 3B)

.663 Rutledge (38)

.556 Marco (27)

.250 Holt (4)

.000 Selsky (1)

 

 

 

 

Yes third base has been a position where we have chronnically underachieved. Marrero has been solid defensively, something we couldn't claim for any of the other 5. The team problems appear to go deeper. Hanley appears to be injured to some degree and in a slump. Beni, who we expected to be a consistent on base guy appears to have lost his mojo temporarily. So where will the runs come from?

Tonight Miley seems to have befuddled everyone other than Travis. Its coming back to the Sox need some reliable bats. Something needs to stir up this group of players. Miley isn't that good.

[georom4]

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html

 

The money is gone. It's guaranteed. He will get his money no matter what, period. You can't get that money back. That means it doesn't even MATTER to rational decision making. You have to write that money off and do what's best for the team and DD is not doing that by compounding the problem of the lost money by letting Sandoval keep playing BELOW REPLACEMENT LEVEL ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL.

 

Sandoval is literally providing negative value even if you ignore the sunk cost, and players who are actually moderately useful, such as Rutledge, Marrero and Travis are on the chopping block as a result. idiotic. Literally counterproductive in several different ways.

 

The only reason to keep playing Sandoval is to try to look good if he performs well. Given 2.5 years of complete nonproductive play the odds of successfully "turning him around" are microscopic, and doing it for sheer preening points is moronic in light of the opportunity cost of either losing an infielder or having to demote a guy who's red hot at the plate. FFS the executive who signed the guy has already fallen on his sword. There is nothing to salvage here. Let Panda fall through the cracks and put an actual baseball player in his place.

 

Executives of a top baseball organization need to use brain on world better than this. AXE THIS GUY ALREADY.

 

Perfect analysis -spot on 100%

[S5Dewey]

It's Sandoval's literal and only job to create separation at the third base position and make himself the obvious choice over replacement level options like Marrero. When a literal replacement player (Marrero) represented an objective upgrade over a player, the player in question has already spectacularly failed.

 

if Sandoval can't create separation between himself and that tier of player the logical response is to stop preferring him over that tier of player. Right now the difference between Marrero and Sandoval is that Marrerro has a ghost of a chance to improve. That being said it is absolutely brainless to give Sandoval preferential access to playing time at third base until he's shown he has earned it.

 

I don't disagree with you at all, but sadly this is what's called "The business of baseball". It's also why this turned out to be such a dreadful signing.

 

It's the business of baseball because the Sox have millions of dollars tied up in him and they want to get something in return for it, whether it's improved production or value in a trade. Unfortunately in order to get value in a trade he has to have proven improved production and the only way to prove it - or prove that he doesn't - is to play him. It's somewhat a Catch-22. They can't prove his skills have improved unless they play him and they shouldn't play him unless his skills have improved.

 

I see this as Sandoval's last chance. As has been already established, his salary is sunk. If he can't be a contributor there's no point in keeping him on the bench occupying a roster spot that could be filled by a contributing player. But I do think we have to put ourselves in JH's spot for a minute and realize that he doesn't want to eat all of Sandoval's salary so he's going to play a game of trying to find out what Sandoval can do in the hope (against hope) that he can be good enough to be our regular 3B or someone else will eat a (small?) portion of his salary in the hope they can get value out of him.

 

But I think I'm preaching to the choir here. We all already know this. It's ugly but it's what it is.

[Maxbialystock]

For those advocating the immediate release of Sandoval, consider the following simple scenario. He is still 30 and has missed a bunch of games--basically all of last year--the last 2-3 years. So he is rusty. So he very possibly could go to a contending team, get his stroke back--he was pretty good in San Francisco where he was heavier than he is now--play decent defense, and make a real contribution. And the Sox would be playing him to play for that other team.

[S5Dewey]

For those advocating the immediate release of Sandoval, consider the following simple scenario. He is still 30 and has missed a bunch of games--basically all of last year--the last 2-3 years. So he is rusty. So he very possibly could go to a contending team, get his stroke back--he was pretty good in San Francisco where he was heavier than he is now--play decent defense, and make a real contribution. And the Sox would be playing him to play for that other team.

 

Yeah. I know. And that would suck.

 

But what also would suck is having Sandoval platooning at 3B and averaging 1 error every 5 games, which is slightly better than he's done thus far.

 

That fear that he may play well for someone else - along with his salary of course - are the only reasons he's still with the Sox at all. I'm just wondering if that's a rational fear.

[oldtimer]

Yeah. I know. And that would suck.

 

But what also would suck is having Sandoval platooning at 3B and averaging 1 error every 5 games, which is slightly better than he's done thus far.

 

That fear that he may play well for someone else - along with his salary of course - are the only reasons he's still with the Sox at all. I'm just wondering if that's a rational fear.

 

The way hanley has been hitting, Pablo could platoon as DH with him. His first game back in that role was encouraging. Hard to swallow we would tie up $40 mil a year for the DH/pinch hitting role. If we find ourselves in the middle of the pack at the all star break, I would think the club would bring up our best young players and let them play. Devers and Travis along with our other youth. That way we could get a feel for what we may need next year.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

It's pretty sad when we look to a guy with a .577 OPS (Marrero) or .604 OPS (Rutledge) to replace or platoon with Pablo (.696 OPS).

 

I guess it is all about upside. Marrero and Rutledge will never hit whereas Sandoval has a track record of producing offensively and maybe he can get back to that. If he stays healthy, maybe he will have a big second half and greatly improve the Red Sox offense.

 

I don't think they are going to bring up Devers this year--he probably isn't ready. I think there is a better chance that Dombrowski will trade Devers than promote him to the major league level.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Kimmi]

For those advocating the immediate release of Sandoval, consider the following simple scenario. He is still 30 and has missed a bunch of games--basically all of last year--the last 2-3 years. So he is rusty. So he very possibly could go to a contending team, get his stroke back--he was pretty good in San Francisco where he was heavier than he is now--play decent defense, and make a real contribution. And the Sox would be playing him to play for that other team.

 

Thank you.

 

Not only that, but as much as I appreciate what Marrero and Rutledge have done for the team, they are not the answer to our 3B problem. Then, heaven forbid, what happens if one of them sustains an injury that will keep him out for a long time?

 

It behooves the Red Sox to give Pablo a fair chance at 3B to see what he can contribute to the team. It is in the team's best interest if Pablo can play well.

 

It's easy to say that we should just eat the money because Pablo is a sunk cost anyway, but that is easier said than done. We don't know for sure that he is a sunk cost.

[moonslav59]

I guess it is all about upside. Marrero and Rutledge will never hit whereas Sandoval has a track record of producing offensively and maybe he can get back to that. If he stays healthy, maybe he will have a big second half and greatly improve the Red Sox offense.

 

I don't think they are going to bring up Devers this year--he probably isn't ready. I think there is a better chance that Dombrowski will trade Devers than promote him to the major league level.

 

I agree that Pablo should get another significant look.

 

I'm not sure when Devers will or should be called up. I trust Sox management to know the right time.

[moonslav59]

Thank you.

 

Not only that, but as much as I appreciate what Marrero and Rutledge have done for the team, they are not the answer to our 3B problem. Then, heaven forbid, what happens if one of them sustains an injury that will keep him out for a long time?

 

It behooves the Red Sox to give Pablo a fair chance at 3B to see what he can contribute to the team. It is in the team's best interest if Pablo can play well.

 

It's easy to say that we should just eat the money because Pablo is a sunk cost anyway, but that is easier said than done. We don't know for sure that he is a sunk cost.

 

Plus, it's not like we have anyone else to play 3B right now that is a clear overall plus.

[oldtimer]

Plus, it's not like we have anyone else to play 3B right now that is a clear overall plus.

 

Pablo did hit a home run tonight and made a fielding play. To me he looks like he has gained back a little weight, which is also something to watch with him. I feel the same way about Moreland. He is no long term solution and maybe Travis will be.