Farrell

[moonslav59]

I meant bringing Chapman back for the 10th, which put two Sox on base before a new guy was brought in. And that gave up a walk and a single before finally striking out Ramirez and Devers lining out to left. My guess is the reliever wasn't fully warmed up as was the case with Reed in game one of that series.

 

I can't discount the mistakes, but am not as sure as you we are the only team making them. I also think you have a low threshold for boneheadedness. I'm more forgiving because it's a really long season--162 games of mind-numbing 3 1/2 hour contests dominated by pitchers and hitters doing their little meaningless routines before and after, what, 300 pitches? No wonder players have used amphetamines or whatever.

 

You want to see more fire and desire, which I would argue can't come from the manager and must come from the players. Moreover, it is hard to keep them alive during every moment of those 162 games, 3 1/2 hours each, and those 300 pitches accompanied by pitchers and hitters routines. I'm continually amazed at how the players stay alert in the field and in the dugout, maybe less so in the bullpen.

 

Of course other managers make mistakes. Of course other teams' players make mental mistakes and blunders. I get that. I've just never seen so many bone-head plays by Sox players in a long, long time.

 

Yes, the players have to take responsibility, but a manager does have a role in teaching, re-teaching and demanding good solid fundamental baseball. There's been a clear lack of focus, when you see multiple instances of players not knowing how many outs there are, or when it's okay to gamble on trying to go to 3B. I've watched just about every pitch of every Sox game for decades, and I've never seen anything like this. It actually seems to be getting worse, even as we are winning. To me, that indicates there seems to be no consequences for lacking focus. I know it's not easy to stay focused 100% of every moment of every game, but a severe lack of focus is surely a reflection of the manager.

 

Yes, "fire and desire" comes from the players, but JF is certainly not known for inspirational skills. He looks like a bump on a log all game.

 

I saw more fire and desire last year. I'm seeing it now since the Nunez trade. Devers' call up and heroics helped as well. I'm hopeful I won't have to say it's missing the rest of the year.

[moonslav59]

When was the last time anyone on talksox or in the media said, "you know, those guys won because the manager made some great moves."

 

I heard it said of Tito. I praised Tito a lot, before the team went AWOL on him. I didn't really "blame" Tito for that either as he certainly had reasonable distractions going on in his life.

 

This team has not gone AWOL, but there does not seem to be any accountability with repeated bone head plays.

 

The "fire and desire" are back, and I thank Nunez and Devers (and Beni- bonehead plays and all) for that.

[Spudboy]

I don't get the 'lack of fire and desire' thing. I don't see anybody loafing or missing games for suspect reasons. I see lots of bonehead mistakes on the bases, but that's different. I see lots of celebrating in the dugout which seems to indicate decent team spirit. Don't see the 'lack of fire and desire' thing.

 

Yup. That is a perfect characterization.

[MADSTORK]

The Boston Managerial position is arguably the toughest in MLB. You could go a step further and say, one of the toughest Coaching jobs in all professional sports. For that i have respect for whomever holds the position.

 

There is a shelf life. Arguably the greatest Manager in Sox history lasted only 8 seasons before exiting. By what Francona has accomplished in Cleveland you might say Boston Ownership didn't give him long enough. Despite missing the playoffs the last 2 yrs he was in Boston, the sox still averaged 90 wins but it was evident his time was up.

 

I don't agree with all of JF's in game decisions but what I did agree with was him attempting to pull Reed after 1 pitch where it was evident he was going suck again in a big moment. Your job as a reliever is to prepare yourself to pitch and be ready to pitch and study the opponent your going to face. Reed sucked on friday and was not off to good start despite getting Ellsbury out. Kudos to Farrell for calling out Reed. The next appearance by Reed will tell much...

[moonslav59]

The Boston Managerial position is arguably the toughest in MLB. You could go a step further and say, one of the toughest Coaching jobs in all professional sports. For that i have respect for whomever holds the position.

 

There is a shelf life. Arguably the greatest Manager in Sox history lasted only 8 seasons before exiting. By what Francona has accomplished in Cleveland you might say Boston Ownership didn't give him long enough. Despite missing the playoffs the last 2 yrs he was in Boston, the sox still averaged 90 wins but it was evident his time was up.

 

I don't agree with all of JF's in game decisions but what I did agree with was him attempting to pull Reed after 1 pitch where it was evident he was going suck again in a big moment. Your job as a reliever is to prepare yourself to pitch and be ready to pitch and study the opponent your going to face. Reed sucked on friday and was not off to good start despite getting Ellsbury out. Kudos to Farrell for calling out Reed. The next appearance by Reed will tell much...

 

How about kudos to JF for calling out players making bonehead plays instead of merely performing poorly?

 

It hasn't happened (that I know of).

 

It's more than just base-running blunders, and I'm not talking about being a little over-aggressive at times. It's fielders forgetting how many outs there are, throwing to the wrong base, and allowing players to go from 1st to 3rd on a simple passed ball by just jogging back to the back stop and casually turning to look to see if the runner is blitzing to 3B. Lots and lots of little things that can and may end up biting us in the ass when it really matters.

 

[Kimmi]

One more thing. I respect moonslav's opinion about Farrell and sometimes agree because, while I also defend JF, I have myself said maybe he needs to go. The difference is he focuses on specific things the manager and players do or fail to do, and I basically go by the won-lost record. Plus I honestly think managers have more expertise, stats, bench coach, pitching coach, etc with which to make decisions on pitchers. I assume every move has a good rationale regardless of the outcome.

 

Think about this. When was the last time anyone on talksox or in the media said, "you know, those guys won because the manager made some great moves." Never happen, GI. Managerial credit for winning only comes with a large sample size, normally no less than a season. Funny thing, but many fans were delighted when Francona's contract after 2011. What a bum. Now he is doing a great job in Cleveland.

 

Nevertheless I do enjoy all the comments and insights on this thread/board. Way, way better than that other one. Some great insights. And humor.

 

I agree with your overall point. I try not to criticize a manager for his in game moves because, as you said, we don't have all the information that a manager. Farrell is much better equipped to make these decisions than any of us armchair managers are. That doesn't mean that he doesn't make mistakes, but he's not as bad as most people make him out to be.

 

Also, just because a move does not work does not mean that it was the wrong move.

[Kimmi]

I don't get the 'lack of fire and desire' thing. I don't see anybody loafing or missing games for suspect reasons. I see lots of bonehead mistakes on the bases, but that's different. I see lots of celebrating in the dugout which seems to indicate decent team spirit. Don't see the 'lack of fire and desire' thing.

 

I agree with this.

[Kimmi]

There have been many times in the gamethreads this year where people have said "great move by Farrell!"

 

Yeah, I think that's mostly Max. LOL

[Kimmi]

How about kudos to JF for calling out players making bonehead plays instead of merely performing poorly?

 

It hasn't happened (that I know of).

 

It's more than just base-running blunders, and I'm not talking about being a little over-aggressive at times. It's fielders forgetting how many outs there are, throwing to the wrong base, and allowing players to go from 1st to 3rd on a simple passed ball by just jogging back to the back stop and casually turning to look to see if the runner is blitzing to 3B. Lots and lots of little things that can and may end up biting us in the ass when it really matters.

 

 

He did call out Pomeranz. What for, exactly, I don't know. Perhaps it is just coincidence that Pom started pitching well after that, but he called him out.

[moonslav59]

He did call out Pomeranz. What for, exactly, I don't know. Perhaps it is just coincidence that Pom started pitching well after that, but he called him out.

 

I'm not actually "for" publicly "calling out" players, unless it's a last resort, and you have some idea it might have a positive influence on a player. My point was that JF is willing to "call-out" a player for a poor performance or even for some unknown reason, but he won't when certain players make multiple mental mistakes within short periods of time.

 

I'm just not sure there is any accountability on blunders. Maybe there is. Maybe JF is very good at secretly addressing this issue, but nonetheless the mistakes keep piling up at a seemingly increasing rate.

[moonslav59]

I agree with this.

 

To be accurate, I see "fire and desire" now that Nunez & Devers have joined the team.

 

I did not see it before.

 

I'm not talking running out to congratulate a player on a walk-off hit. I'm talking about energy and enthusiasm in between walk off hits.

 

I'm not asking for fake rah-rah emotions and constant dugout cheering or intense looking focus every second of every game by every player, but am I really alone in seeing more mental mistakes with this team than at least any other team in the Henry era?

 

Fundamental running mistakes beyond just very high aggressiveness.

 

Fundamental fielding mistakes (not out of lack of physical skill sets).

 

Farrell, himself, coming out of the dugout to make a pitching change no allowed by the rules.

 

Only the fact that we are still winning despite all the blunders is what is preventing just about all fans from going totally loco on JF's ass.

 

Now, I do see a crazy looking bull pen somehow leading the league in many tough statistical areas. I do see one returning every day player doing better than last year (Vaz). I suppose JF should get credit for that, at least. I know managers are by-and-large judged by wins or losses, but to me, it's always gone far beyond that.

 

On a personal note, I'm usually the last guy calling for a manager's removal. (Bobby V and Tito were two examples.) I think Joe Morgan was the last guy I could not support for most of a season.

 

Yeah, I complain about line-ups and general philosophy, but I rarely use a microscope on every in-game decision. I give the manager the benefit of a doubt in those areas for the most part. I even defended the decision to leave Pedro in the game. I rarely even visit the game threads, in part because knit-picking irritates me and prevents me from enjoying the game. It's really a rare thing that I thrown blame at any one person in a baseball organization (player, coach, manager or GM). As much as I have criticized moves made by DD, I'm not even close to calling for his removal. Not even close to close.

 

I am sure of one thing: I do not think JF is a net positive on this team. I do not think he does enough to be proactive about preventing blunders. I know players should not need to be motivated, but a good manager can and will notice when a team is losing focus or losing enthusiasm and will do what it takes to keep the team positive, focused and enthusiastic.

 

[Bellhorn04]

The "fire and desire" are back, and I thank Nunez and Devers (and Beni- bonehead plays and all) for that.

 

This makes no sense to me. You're saying that because Nunez, Devers and Beni are raking and we're scoring more runs as a result that you can now see fire and desire again.

[moonslav59]

This makes no sense to me. You're saying that because Nunez, Devers and Beni are raking and we're scoring more runs as a result that you can now see fire and desire again.

 

I'm sure winning has a lot to do with it, but are you really saying you haven't noticed more energy and enthusiasm since Nunez & Devers joined the club?

I see more "fire". Maybe I'm the only one who does.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm sure winning has a lot to do with it, but are you really saying you haven't noticed more energy and enthusiasm since Nunez & Devers joined the club?

I see more "fire". Maybe I'm the only one who does.

 

Mainly I see more guys crossing the plate.

[OH FOY]

I see the difference too.

[Kimmi]

I'm not actually "for" publicly "calling out" players, unless it's a last resort, and you have some idea it might have a positive influence on a player. My point was that JF is willing to "call-out" a player for a poor performance or even for some unknown reason, but he won't when certain players make multiple mental mistakes within short periods of time.

 

I'm just not sure there is any accountability on blunders. Maybe there is. Maybe JF is very good at secretly addressing this issue, but nonetheless the mistakes keep piling up at a seemingly increasing rate.

 

I am not for publicly calling out players either. I don't think the argument in the dugout was meant to be seen, it's just one of those things that the cameras captured.

 

I have said that it is fair to question Farrell about the blunders. The players need to be held accountable. But as you said, maybe Farrell is addressing the issues behind the scenes, as a good manager should do.

[Kimmi]

To be accurate, I see "fire and desire" now that Nunez & Devers have joined the team.

 

I did not see it before.

 

I'm not talking running out to congratulate a player on a walk-off hit. I'm talking about energy and enthusiasm in between walk off hits.

 

I'm not asking for fake rah-rah emotions and constant dugout cheering or intense looking focus every second of every game by every player, but am I really alone in seeing more mental mistakes with this team than at least any other team in the Henry era?

 

Fundamental running mistakes beyond just very high aggressiveness.

 

Fundamental fielding mistakes (not out of lack of physical skill sets).

 

Farrell, himself, coming out of the dugout to make a pitching change no allowed by the rules.

 

Only the fact that we are still winning despite all the blunders is what is preventing just about all fans from going totally loco on JF's ass.

 

Now, I do see a crazy looking bull pen somehow leading the league in many tough statistical areas. I do see one returning every day player doing better than last year (Vaz). I suppose JF should get credit for that, at least. I know managers are by-and-large judged by wins or losses, but to me, it's always gone far beyond that.

 

On a personal note, I'm usually the last guy calling for a manager's removal. (Bobby V and Tito were two examples.) I think Joe Morgan was the last guy I could not support for most of a season.

 

Yeah, I complain about line-ups and general philosophy, but I rarely use a microscope on every in-game decision. I give the manager the benefit of a doubt in those areas for the most part. I even defended the decision to leave Pedro in the game. I rarely even visit the game threads, in part because knit-picking irritates me and prevents me from enjoying the game. It's really a rare thing that I thrown blame at any one person in a baseball organization (player, coach, manager or GM). As much as I have criticized moves made by DD, I'm not even close to calling for his removal. Not even close to close.

 

I am sure of one thing: I do not think JF is a net positive on this team. I do not think he does enough to be proactive about preventing blunders. I know players should not need to be motivated, but a good manager can and will notice when a team is losing focus or losing enthusiasm and will do what it takes to keep the team positive, focused and enthusiastic.

 

 

Of course we all see the blunders. I don't think that that necessarily equates to lack of fire though. Maybe they are trying to do too much? Maybe for some of them it's still a learning curve as to when it's a good risk to take versus not?

 

That doesn't excuse mental lapses like forgetting how many outs there are, but again, I'm not sure that means lack of fire.

[moonslav59]

Of course we all see the blunders. I don't think that that necessarily equates to lack of fire though. Maybe they are trying to do too much? Maybe for some of them it's still a learning curve as to when it's a good risk to take versus not?

 

That doesn't excuse mental lapses like forgetting how many outs there are, but again, I'm not sure that means lack of fire.

 

I wasn't equating lack of fire with mental blunders. They are separate.

 

It's my guess the "lack of fire" basically fixed itself with the additions of Nunez and Devers. Sometimes new blood alone can add enthusiasm or maybe just a drive to try and keep your job for some guys.

 

The mental blunders were occurring 2-3 a game for a while there, and that was after I was already fed up with JF.

[Spudboy]

Mainly I see more guys crossing the plate.

 

Bottom f***ing line boys.

[moonslav59]

Mainly I see more guys crossing the plate.

 

I've yet to see JF cross the plate, except to try and yank a pitcher not knowing he couldn't.

[Bellhorn04]

I've yet to see JF cross the plate, except to try and yank a pitcher not knowing he couldn't.

 

Where did you get your pitchfork and torch - Home Depot?

[moonslav59]

Where did you get your pitchfork and torch - Home Depot?

 

LOWE's

[Slasher9]

pinch hitting Holt for vazquez last night was an absolute horrific managerial decision. even more so when he didn't try bunting strike 1 (he swung).

last night is an example of us winning in spite of JF.

[moonslav59]

pinch hitting Holt for vazquez last night was an absolute horrific managerial decision. even more so when he didn't try bunting strike 1 (he swung).

last night is an example of us winning in spite of JF.

 

If JBJ was thrown out at the plate, maybe more would be jumping on the "JF must go" bandwagon.

[Bellhorn04]

Pinch hitting Holt there was questionable but hardly horrific. He put up a decent 8 pitch at-bat which may have contributed to what followed.

[jacksonianmarch]

Well, you could be Mike Matheny who gives up on his closer with a one run lead and a guy on first. Rosenthal deserved to close that out. Mixing and matching late left last years MVP runner up walking off vs a far inferior pitcher

[Slasher9]

Pinch hitting Holt there was questionable but hardly horrific. He put up a decent 8 pitch at-bat which may have contributed to what followed.

 

fair point. at the time i was recognizing the tough AB he was involved in but it was not surprising it ended in a K.

the swing at strike 1 and bunt at strike 2 is on the manager. if we are going to sacrifice, then sacrifice. did holt miss a sign on strike 1? or was JF late in making his decision to sacrifice?

[Slasher9]

If JBJ was thrown out at the plate, maybe more would be jumping on the "JF must go" bandwagon.

i guess it would have depended on who ended up winning in extras as CY provided the tying run already.

also, everyone thrown at at any base seems to fall on the base coaches. certainly buttermaker was waving JBj home on that particular play. JBj's intelligent slide to the point side of homeplate forced the catcher to try and make a quick tag which made him miss the ball. the throw was a one hopper and should have easily been picked. but he was rushing the swipe tag and forgot to catch the ball first. kudos bigtime to JBj.

[Nick]

Holt sucks....his value? Let see what we can get for him. Probably not much.

[Maxbialystock]

pinch hitting Holt for vazquez last night was an absolute horrific managerial decision. even more so when he didn't try bunting strike 1 (he swung).

last night is an example of us winning in spite of JF.

 

It was Holt or Leon, period. Holt is faster, about even in OBP with Leon, and a better bunter. You are free to disagree with the decision, of course, but it was hardly horrific.