2017 Rotation Discussion

[SoxnCycles]

Now, to reality.

 

It depends on what you mean by "rise". If you mean does the ball cross the plate at a higher point than it is released, them yes, a submariner does make the ball rise. Wasn't is Darin O'Day who basically threw the ball from almost ground level?

 

If you mean actually rise, then no. To actually rise, a pitcher would to develop lift on the ball greater than the weight of the ball. That would entail generating a bottom to top spin, a very high spin rate and a very high velocity.

 

The attached outlines the physics of it. The bottom line is no, at least today's athletes cannot make a ball actually rise.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-physics-of-a-rising-fastball/

 

They use Aroldis Chapman as a subject, and it concludes that if he kept his current spin rate (2350 rpm), he could (theoretically), get the ball to rise if he could thrown the ball at about 113 mph. Or, if he kept his current velocity, he would need to increase his spin rate to 3100 rpm to make it rise. However, that only accounts for the ball out of his hand. The ball loses speed over the course of it's journey to the plate, so the initial velocity would have to be 9-10 mph higher than it is right now (i.e., he would have to release the ball at around 122-123 mph).

 

A submariner might not have to throw the ball quite that hard, but to impart the same spin, it would have to be done as a breaking pitch which means less initial velocity.

 

Yes, but the important thing is what it appears to do, not what it actually does.

Or, some such BS like that....

[harmony]

$20M on Porcello will free up for 2020. Same goes for Hanley and Pablo, thus freeing up $60M between 3 players.

 

Looks to me like we'll have money to spend. We should trade Xander and even Betts if they look to walk. (say with 2 years of control left)

If Rick Porcello passed through waivers this month, or if Seattle made a successful waiver claim, would the Red Sox pull Porcello back off waivers or try to work out a deal with the Mariners?

 

If the Sox were willing to deal, what Mariners players would be wanted? Would cash change hands?

 

The Red Sox probably are not in a position to trade an established starter but Porcello's $21 million annual salary has luxury tax implications through 2019.

[mvp 78]

If Rick Porcello passed through waivers this month, or if Seattle made a successful waiver claim, would the Red Sox pull Porcello back off waivers or try to work out a deal with the Mariners?

 

If the Sox were willing to deal, what Mariners players would be wanted? Would cash change hands?

 

The Red Sox probably are not in a position to trade an established starter but Porcello's $21 million annual salary has luxury tax implications through 2019.

 

Why would they put Porcello on the block when Price is injured?

[Kimmi]

Nice to see Sale bounce back in a big way after that horrible last start.

 

Sale will deny it until he's blue in the face (putting all the blame on himself), but I can't help but think that not having Leon in that last outing contributed to the poor performance. I am not knocking Vazquez at all - I love the guy - but not having worked with Sale all, he can't possibly know the ins and outs of Sale the way Leon does.

[Kimmi]

Sale, Kimbrel, Nunez and Pom....now they are nice pickups by DD. We'll see what Carson Smith hype is all about. He's under team control for next three years, 2018-2020.

 

All great pickups indeed.

[mvp 78]

Sale will deny it until he's blue in the face (putting all the blame on himself), but I can't help but think that not having Leon in that last outing contributed to the poor performance. I am not knocking Vazquez at all - I love the guy - but not having worked with Sale all, he can't possibly know the ins and outs of Sale the way Leon does.

 

Yup. CV has been ok this year, but his lack of familiarity with Sale really impacted that last game. Should CV get a few more starts with Sale down the stretch just in case Leon gets injured?

[Kimmi]

If Rick Porcello passed through waivers this month, or if Seattle made a successful waiver claim, would the Red Sox pull Porcello back off waivers or try to work out a deal with the Mariners?

 

If the Sox were willing to deal, what Mariners players would be wanted? Would cash change hands?

 

The Red Sox probably are not in a position to trade an established starter but Porcello's $21 million annual salary has luxury tax implications through 2019.

 

I just don't see the Sox wanting to trade Porcello.

 

I have said it many times and I'll say it again. Porcello's contract is one that I would do all over again all day long, without the benefit of hindsight. It was probably a little more $ per year at the time, but the Sox were able to get him for fewer years than he would have likely received otherwise. Not to mention they are his prime years.

 

According to Fangraphs, Porcello was worth $41.7 mil last year. So far this year, he's been worth $14.9 mil with about 1/3 of the season to go. That would put him right on pace to be worth about $21 mil this year. This deal is hardly the disaster that some people make it out to be.

[Kimmi]

Yup. CV has been ok this year, but his lack of familiarity with Sale really impacted that last game. Should CV get a few more starts with Sale down the stretch just in case Leon gets injured?

 

I have always thought there was a lot of merit to pitchers having the same catcher each outing, not only for the pitcher's sake, but for the catcher as well.

 

The drawback of that is what happens in case of injury to one of the catchers, as you mentioned. Having that familiarity with Vazquez would certainly help, but I don't know that I'd want to disrupt Sale in the middle of a fairly tight pennant race. So for the immediate future, I would say no.

 

Can they do that in a bullpen session or something?

[Kimmi]

For anyone wondering:

 

Pete Abraham

6m

Rodriguez, Pomeranz and Sale vs. the Yankees. Fister gets the Guardians makeup game on Monday.

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

 

Sale's 7.0 WAR so far is valued at $56M. Kluber has the next highest WAR at 4.9.

 

BUT THE CLIFF..................

[Kimmi]

@redsoxstats

 

Sale's 7.0 WAR so far is valued at $56M. Kluber has the next highest WAR at 4.9.

 

BUT THE CLIFF..................

 

The cliff is very real.

 

Even Henry acknowledges it and has started pulling Dombrowski back.

 

They are now putting more focus on trying to fix the cliff.

[mvp 78]

The cliff is very real.

 

Even Henry acknowledges it and has started pulling Dombrowski back.

 

They are now putting more focus on trying to fix the cliff.

 

RE: Henry

 

I don't trust people who sleep in coffins and don't come out during the daylight. I'm not sure I've read any direct quotes from Henry on this subject either.

[illinoisredsox]

Sale will deny it until he's blue in the face (putting all the blame on himself), but I can't help but think that not having Leon in that last outing contributed to the poor performance. I am not knocking Vazquez at all - I love the guy - but not having worked with Sale all, he can't possibly know the ins and outs of Sale the way Leon does.

 

Yup. CV has been ok this year, but his lack of familiarity with Sale really impacted that last game. Should CV get a few more starts with Sale down the stretch just in case Leon gets injured?

 

I'd go along with that to an extent; career wise, however, the Guardians are the team that has given Sale the most trouble. In 28 games (17 starts) against the Tribe, he's 5-7 (the only team he's under .500 against) with a 4.44 ERA (worst against any team he's faced more than twice) and a 1.297 WHIP.

 

Every pitcher seems to have a team he's Superman against and a team that's kryptonite to him. Cleveland appears to be that latter team for Sale.

[mvp 78]

I don't believe in grumkins, snarks or an impending cliff.

[Kimmi]

RE: Henry

 

I don't trust people who sleep in coffins and don't come out during the daylight. I'm not sure I've read any direct quotes from Henry on this subject either.

 

Dombrowski himself has hinted to something along these lines. I don't remember exactly what he said, but he made a comment about sort of shifting gears after the winter meetings.

[mvp 78]

Dombrowski himself has hinted to something along these lines. I don't remember exactly what he said, but he made a comment about sort of shifting gears after the winter meetings.

 

Until we can confirm this directly, it's all conjecture on our parts and prone to bias.

 

Is the FO shifting gears? Maybe? Is it coming from Henry, or someone else? Who knows?

 

I just can't stand the "this one guy in the organization is ruining everything, but this other guy is cool" narrative. We're not on the inside, so we don't really know what is actually going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure it matters either.

[SoxnCycles]

I'd go along with that to an extent; career wise, however, the Guardians are the team that has given Sale the most trouble. In 28 games (17 starts) against the Tribe, he's 5-7 (the only team he's under .500 against) with a 4.44 ERA (worst against any team he's faced more than twice) and a 1.297 WHIP.

 

Every pitcher seems to have a team he's Superman against and a team that's kryptonite to him. Cleveland appears to be that latter team for Sale.

 

And with Sale coming from the AL Central, the Guardians have seen a lot of him.

[Kimmi]

I'd go along with that to an extent; career wise, however, the Guardians are the team that has given Sale the most trouble. In 28 games (17 starts) against the Tribe, he's 5-7 (the only team he's under .500 against) with a 4.44 ERA (worst against any team he's faced more than twice) and a 1.297 WHIP.

 

Every pitcher seems to have a team he's Superman against and a team that's kryptonite to him. Cleveland appears to be that latter team for Sale.

 

I don't think it's all on the catcher, by any means. When a pitcher is on, he can pitch to any catcher, IMO. However, if a pitcher is struggling a bit, I think that a catcher who knows the pitcher well can reel that pitcher in a bit. I've seen Varitek do it.

 

I don't think that Sale would have pitched like he did last night if he had Leon catching. But I do think he would have had a better performance than he did.

[Kimmi]

Until we can confirm this directly, it's all conjecture on our parts and prone to bias.

 

Is the FO shifting gears? Maybe? Is it coming from Henry, or someone else? Who knows?

 

I just can't stand the "this one guy in the organization is ruining everything, but this other guy is cool" narrative. We're not on the inside, so we don't really know what is actually going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure it matters either.

 

Of course we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. It's all conjecture as to who does what.

 

That's not going to stop me from conjecturing, just like it stops no one else. It's what we do here.

[illinoisredsox]

I don't think it's all on the catcher, by any means. When a pitcher is on, he can pitch to any catcher, IMO. However, if a pitcher is struggling a bit, I think that a catcher who knows the pitcher well can reel that pitcher in a bit. I've seen Varitek do it.

 

I don't think that Sale would have pitched like he did last night if he had Leon catching. But I do think he would have had a better performance than he did.

 

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

One of my biggest gripes (maybe the biggest one) with Saltalamacchia was that he NEVER went to the mound other than to change the signals. He never attempted to refocus a pitcher or calm him down or just break a bad rhythm. Ross did it all the time, so it wasn't an organizational thing. Varitek, of course, was the best at it.

[Slasher9]

Yup. CV has been ok this year, but his lack of familiarity with Sale really impacted that last game. Should CV get a few more starts with Sale down the stretch just in case Leon gets injured?

 

100%

[Slasher9]

I just don't see the Sox wanting to trade Porcello.

 

I have said it many times and I'll say it again. Porcello's contract is one that I would do all over again all day long, without the benefit of hindsight. It was probably a little more $ per year at the time, but the Sox were able to get him for fewer years than he would have likely received otherwise. Not to mention they are his prime years.

 

According to Fangraphs, Porcello was worth $41.7 mil last year. So far this year, he's been worth $14.9 mil with about 1/3 of the season to go. That would put him right on pace to be worth about $21 mil this year. This deal is hardly the disaster that some people make it out to be.

 

100%

[mvp 78]

Of course we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. It's all conjecture as to who does what.

 

That's not going to stop me from conjecturing, just like it stops no one else. It's what we do here.

 

I never conjecture. Henry does sleep in coffins!

[moonslav59]

I have always thought there was a lot of merit to pitchers having the same catcher each outing, not only for the pitcher's sake, but for the catcher as well.

 

The drawback of that is what happens in case of injury to one of the catchers, as you mentioned. Having that familiarity with Vazquez would certainly help, but I don't know that I'd want to disrupt Sale in the middle of a fairly tight pennant race. So for the immediate future, I would say no.

 

Can they do that in a bullpen session or something?

 

I think every pitcher should be exposed to both catcher for enough time to gain a "comfort level".

 

One example that irked the hell out of me was when VTek was used with Beckett almost exclusively, but when the playoffs started, the manager decided he wanted more offense, and so he started VMart at catcher.

 

I'm not saying VMart was the reason Beckett got lit up, but I hated the choice (before it happened).

[Kimmi]

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

One of my biggest gripes (maybe the biggest one) with Saltalamacchia was that he NEVER went to the mound other than to change the signals. He never attempted to refocus a pitcher or calm him down or just break a bad rhythm. Ross did it all the time, so it wasn't an organizational thing. Varitek, of course, was the best at it.

 

I appreciated Salty's work ethic, but he never really had it defensively. Varitek is the man. As I posted recently, I would still have him on the team if I could.

[Kimmi]

I think every pitcher should be exposed to both catcher for enough time to gain a "comfort level".

 

One example that irked the hell out of me was when VTek was used with Beckett almost exclusively, but when the playoffs started, the manager decided he wanted more offense, and so he started VMart at catcher.

 

I'm not saying VMart was the reason Beckett got lit up, but I hated the choice (before it happened).

 

It would probably be smart to do that in case of injury, but if that's going to be the case, I'm not sure that now is a good time to try to get that exposure.

 

I agree about the decision to start VMart over Varitek. I didn't like it.

[Spudboy]

Sale will deny it until he's blue in the face (putting all the blame on himself), but I can't help but think that not having Leon in that last outing contributed to the poor performance. I am not knocking Vazquez at all - I love the guy - but not having worked with Sale all, he can't possibly know the ins and outs of Sale the way Leon does.

 

Indeed.

[Larry Cook]

Last year Lester worked almost exclusively with Ross and lester had a very nice year.

 

This year, Ross is retired and Lester is not having as nice a year.

 

Sometimes pitchers and catchers develop chemistry. When it works, you ride it.

[Kimmi]

Last year Lester worked almost exclusively with Ross and lester had a very nice year.

 

This year, Ross is retired and Lester is not having as nice a year.

 

Sometimes pitchers and catchers develop chemistry. When it works, you ride it.

 

I think that was a big reason why Theo even signed Ross.

[Larry Cook]

Did price throw today?