Maybe the Best all-around out field the Sox have ever had?

[jacksonianmarch]

And Swihart is just being showcased. He's a placeholder in LF for Benintendi.

[Bellhorn04]

Lynn won the gold glove 4 times in his brief tenure here. Rice won it 5 times in his much longer tenure. Yaz won 6, one in the era in question (77). Rice was a roughly average defender, which in Fenway's left field is fine.

 

THe problem here is we're comparing kids who are still learning their job to guys who came to the majors ready to dominate that job. All of Rice, Lynn, Evans, and Yaz came out the gate stronger than any of Swihart, Betts and Bradley. The talent level is simply an order of magnitude different.

 

I'll challenge that on one point - Betts clearly came out of the gate stronger than Evans.

[illinoisredsox]

I'll challenge that on one point - Betts clearly came out of the gate stronger than Evans.

 

Very true. Evans didn't become the hitter many think of until he was around 26 or 27, by which point he had been in the league 5-6 years. His 900 OPS seasons didn't until he had been around a decade.

[illinoisredsox]

The Rice-Lynn-Evans OF in the late 70s is the modern gold standard for Sox outfields.

 

Going way back, the Haary Hooper-Tris Speaker-Duffy Lewis trio a hundred years ago featured 2 Hall of Famers. The required skill sets was so different that it's hard to make comparisons.

[illinoisredsox]

Yes, Yaz was moving out as Rice, Lynn and Evans were moving starting out. However, Yaz played a full season in the OF in 1977 and half a season in 1978, so he did play a considerable number of games alongside Lynn and Evans. He also won a gold glove for LF in 1977. When he wasn't out there, Rice was out there, and although Jim Ed was built like a body builder, his athleticism was under rated.

 

Didn't Rice hit 15 triples in a season a couple times? I'm pretty sure he led the league in triples and homers one season (1978?).

 

He was never a gold glover, but he made himself into a pretty decent outfielder as well.

[Spudboy]

Didn't Rice hit 15 triples in a season a couple times? I'm pretty sure he led the league in triples and homers one season (1978?).

 

He was never a gold glover, but he made himself into a pretty decent outfielder as well.

 

Rice had some major giddy-up for a big man. He had really good speed on the bases.

 

And yes, he did make himself into a pretty competent LF. Many never really saw this because He followed Yaz ( the best ever ) out there.

 

Just my observation. I will not attempt to justify or support my opinion with stats.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Huh? All pitchers are one sore arm away from Tommy John surgery. It has taken the Sox 3 years to mold this outfield, and I think I would stick with it. And Sonny has not been all that sunny so far!

 

Pretty small sample size this season, I'd rather judge him on his full body of work.

 

If you can aquire a young, cost controlled TOTR starter you do it in a hearbeat IMO.

 

They are much harder to find than an average LF.

[cp176]

Rice had some major giddy-up for a big man. He had really good speed on the bases.

 

And yes, he did make himself into a pretty competent LF. Many never really saw this because He followed Yaz ( the best ever ) out there.

 

Just my observation. I will not attempt to justify or support my opinion with stats.

 

I agree with you and you know me - I'll never try to justify any opinion with quantifiable statistical evidence. Takes too long to look up. I'd rather fix divots in my spare time. If Rice had not been injured in '75, we would not have had to wait so long for our modern ws win. Same could be said about Coniglaro's injury in '67.

[Slasher9]

JBj is the best defensive outfielder to ever don a Red Sox uniform.

with Betts in RF...it doesnt matter who ends up playing LF for the next 5-6 years this will be the best defensive RS outfield ever.

the above is just my opinion......

[cp176]

And Swihart is just being showcased. He's a placeholder in LF for Benintendi.

 

 

We will have to wait and see about this one. At the present time, Swihart is doing it and Benintendi might be able to some day.

[sk7326]

Lynn won the gold glove 4 times in his brief tenure here. Rice won it 5 times in his much longer tenure. Yaz won 6, one in the era in question (77). Rice was a roughly average defender, which in Fenway's left field is fine.

 

THe problem here is we're comparing kids who are still learning their job to guys who came to the majors ready to dominate that job. All of Rice, Lynn, Evans, and Yaz came out the gate stronger than any of Swihart, Betts and Bradley. The talent level is simply an order of magnitude different.

 

We have a good group of outfielders. We do not nearly have the best group of outfielders we've ever had, ever. Heck the Drew-Crisp-Manny outfield might be better defensively in 2007 than the Swihart-Bradley-Betts outfield is right now, even with Manny dragging the 07 numbers down. Coco and JD were that good. but it is nice to have all those young guys with upside there to point the team in the direction of the future. That looks like it will be fun.

 

When I made the assertion about athleticism, it did apply to the whole starting unit ... ironically, the team which actually hired Pablo Sandoval has the most un-Sandoval like lineup in team history. You have RB/WR types at every position (except for C where Vasquez seemed bred in Middle Earth specifically to do this job).

 

Rice was a bad outfielder his entire career - but like Manny, he was a bad outfielder who knew how to play Fenway ... which as we've learned has little to do with more general outfield defense traits. Lynn clearly was an all-timer before his body broke down, and Evans' Hall of Fame case is quite good compared to a lot of guys who are actually in the Hall (including Rice himself).

[a700hitter]

I thought this had to do with athletic ability as applied to baseball. Also, the little grey memory cells sometimed play tricks with us older guys. Some here have mentioned the 1975 team as a criteria. In 1975, Yaz hit .269, had 14 HR and 87 RBI's. To get the real Yaz, you have to go back to the mid-60's

That group of outfielders played together through 1977. Check out their 1977 numbers..

[a700hitter]

I'll challenge that on one point - Betts clearly came out of the gate stronger than Evans.

My recollection is that Evans suffered a severe beaning early on in his career that effected him for a while. Evans was a far superior outfielder to Betts. Betts is not even in the same zip code as Evans.

[a700hitter]

Rice had some major giddy-up for a big man. He had really good speed on the bases.

 

And yes, he did make himself into a pretty competent LF. Many never really saw this because He followed Yaz ( the best ever ) out there.

 

Just my observation. I will not attempt to justify or support my opinion with stats.

Rice became a excellent outfielder. And yes he did suffer from comparisons to Yaz.

[Spudboy]

My recollection is that Evans suffered a severe beaning early on in his career that effected him for a while. Evans was a far superior outfielder to Betts. Betts is not even in the same zip code as Evans.

 

Certainly Evans was far superior to what we currently have with Betts.

 

I love what I see from Bettts and can see that he may become much better than what he is currently. He has tools that Dewey never had ( more speed and possibly a better bat ) but as of now he is not capable of doing things like throwing to bases, the cut-off, or to the plate like Evans. That's no knock on the kid. Evans made himself into a great defensive right fielder. I think Betts will do this as well.

 

How come my boy Jose Tartebul gets no love?

[Bellhorn04]

My recollection is that Evans suffered a severe beaning early on in his career that effected him for a while. Evans was a far superior outfielder to Betts. Betts is not even in the same zip code as Evans.

 

Evans suffered a severe beaning in August, 1978. Pretty sure that's the one you're thinking of.

[cp176]

When I made the assertion about athleticism, it did apply to the whole starting unit ... ironically, the team which actually hired Pablo Sandoval has the most un-Sandoval like lineup in team history. You have RB/WR types at every position (except for C where Vasquez seemed bred in Middle Earth specifically to do this job).

 

Rice was a bad outfielder his entire career - but like Manny, he was a bad outfielder who knew how to play Fenway ... which as we've learned has little to do with more general outfield defense traits. Lynn clearly was an all-timer before his body broke down, and Evans' Hall of Fame case is quite good compared to a lot of guys who are actually in the Hall (including Rice himself).

 

 

I have to say I do remember Rice being a work in progress in left but I don't recall considering him bad. Don't ruin my memories with statistical analysis please. Manny I certainly would consider borderline bad (c-). Just from memory though.

[Spudboy]

Rice became a excellent outfielder. And yes he did suffer from comparisons to Yaz.

 

Not according to some!

 

"Rice was a bad outfielder his entire career - but like Manny, he was a bad outfielder who knew how to play Fenway ... which as we've learned has little to do with more general outfield defense traits."

 

My guess is that that statement is based on dWar or some other stat.

 

I watched Rice play from the moment he came up. I disagree.

[Spudboy]

I have to say I do remember Rice being a work in progress in left but I don't recall considering him bad. Don't ruin my memories with statistical analysis please. Manny I certainly would consider borderline bad (c-). Just from memory though.

 

Of course we could be accused of selective or even failing memory.

 

I don't think so. I believe that between a700, you, and myself, we have seen a large sample and judge his play objectively.

 

Whatever.

[a700hitter]

Certainly Evans was far superior to what we currently have with Betts.

 

I love what I see from Bettts and can see that he may become much better than what he is currently. He has tools that Dewey never had ( more speed and possibly a better bat ) but as of now he is not capable of doing things like throwing to bases, the cut-off, or to the plate like Evans. That's no knock on the kid. Evans made himself into a great defensive right fielder. I think Betts will do this as well.

 

How come my boy Jose Tartebul gets no love?

Betts does have tools that Evans didn't have. That is true, but Evans was phenomenal defensively from the start. He could run, chase down flies and he had a howitzer for an arm. He didn't develop into a great RFer. That was his reputation from the beginning. Betts can chase flies and is an excellent OFer, but the arm is just not there to compare to Dewey. He has a second baseman's arm.

[Bellhorn04]

With Rice and Manny, the real question is what kind of defense did they play on the road?

[Spudboy]

With Rice and Manny, the real question is what kind of defense did they play on the road?

 

That is one man's opinion, apparently.

[a700hitter]

Certainly Evans was far superior to what we currently have with Betts.

 

I love what I see from Bettts and can see that he may become much better than what he is currently. He has tools that Dewey never had ( more speed and possibly a better bat ) but as of now he is not capable of doing things like throwing to bases, the cut-off, or to the plate like Evans. That's no knock on the kid. Evans made himself into a great defensive right fielder. I think Betts will do this as well.

 

How come my boy Jose Tartebul gets no love?

Tartabull to Elston Howard to get Ken Berry at the plate. Howard had to leap for the throw.

[illinoisredsox]

My recollection is that Evans suffered a severe beaning early on in his career that effected him for a while. Evans was a far superior outfielder to Betts. Betts is not even in the same zip code as Evans.

 

I believe you are right, Evans was beaned early in his career. I remember him missing 1/2 a season or so sometime in his first 2-3 years, but that might have been a knee..

 

Defensively, the only thing Betts has over Evans is speed, but Evans had such incredible instincts. Evans arm may have been better than JBJ's and it was certainly comparable. His assist totals were not as high as some other guys because teams just didn't bother trying to score from 3rd on a medium fly ball or even go from 1st to 3rd on routine base hits. He earned 8 gold gloves in his career and deserved every one of them.

[a700hitter]

With Rice and Manny, the real question is what kind of defense did they play on the road?

Rice had much better speed than some people remember. He wasn't graceful, but he got the job done at Fenway and on the road. He handled the spacious LF in Yankee Stadium just fine.

[Spudboy]

Betts does have tools that Evans didn't have. That is true, but Evans was phenomenal defensively from the start. He could run, chase down flies and he had a howitzer for an arm. He didn't develop into a great RFer. That was his reputation from the beginning. Betts can chase flies and is an excellent OFer, but the arm is just not there to compare to Dewey. He has a second baseman's arm.

 

Honestly I do not remember Dewey being great defensively as soon as he arrived. That is not to say he was not. Just that I do not remember that exactly!

 

Betts arm may never be what Evans arm was, true. But at least he can learn where to throw, how to get his feet and body into position to make that throw and to make the throw with accuracy and authority.

 

There should be no need for him to be labeled as a Damon or Ellsbury Rag type arm. He should become better.

[Spudboy]

Rice had much better speed than some people remember. He wasn't graceful, but he got the job done at Fenway and on the road. He handled the spacious LF in Yankee Stadium just fine.

 

And what the f*** do you know?

 

Old men and their memories. Jeez!

 

Lol. I totally agree with what you said.

[Spudboy]

Tartabull to Elston Howard to get Ken Berry at the plate. Howard had to leap for the throw.

 

Lol.

 

I just wonder if anyone else even remembers Jose. Lol.

[a700hitter]

Honestly I do not remember Dewey being great defensively as soon as he arrived. That is not to say he was not. Just that I do not remember that exactly!

 

Betts arm may never be what Evans arm was, true. But at least he can learn where to throw, how to get his feet and body into position to make that throw and to make the throw with accuracy and authority.

 

There should be no need for him to be labeled as a Damon or Ellsbury Rag type arm. He should become better.

When Dewey first came up at the end of '72 I think, we still had Reggie Smith, Tommy Harper, Ben Olgivie and Yaz had to play first base. It was hard to make an impression with those guys out there.

[a700hitter]

And Rick Miller too. He was the best of them all. He just couldn't hit enough to play everyday on those clubs.