The Official Dead Horse Topics Thread

[Kimmi]

Your bias is that you think there is such a thing as purely objective analysis. The trick is to recognize one's biases. Regarding consistency, I refer you to Ralph Waldo Emerson.

 

Please show me where I have ever said anything about there being a purely objective analysis. But maybe this is why I refer to computer analysis and sabermetrics more than others, over the "eye test"? No, I don't think they are foolproof by any means, but they sure do eliminate as much bias as possible, far more bias than the "I know what my eyes tell me" argument.

 

I am not talking about consistency in terms of never changing your mind or opinion. I am talking about consistency in terms of not having a double standard based on whether you like/agree with something or not. There's a difference.

[Elktonnick]

FTR, I never said that Dombrowski was incompetent. I agree with you that he is not incompetent. IMO, the Tigers were just ready to head in another direction.

 

I feel the same is true of Ben. With the young core in place and a strong farm system, Henry was ready to head in another direction. The on field results have not been good the past two years. I don't think that equates to incompetence when the teams looked good on paper. If the team that Ben assembled were not projected to contend by the vast majority, then I could understand the incompetence argument.

 

What I find ironic is that I think Ilitch is trying to embrace a philosophy more like the Red Sox have had, and Henry is trying to embrace one more like the Tigers have had.

 

As far as bias goes, I pretty much agree with you. I think that there are varying degrees of bias though, and some can be more objective than others.

 

Like I said Ben had his strong points. In fairness to Ben, if what Denny McLain is true then DD is one devious SOB, just like Larry Lucchino.

[Elktonnick]

Please show me where I have ever said anything about there being a purely objective analysis. But maybe this is why I refer to computer analysis and sabermetrics more than others, over the "eye test"? No, I don't think they are foolproof by any means, but they sure do eliminate as much bias as possible, far more bias than the "I know what my eyes tell me" argument.

 

I am not talking about consistency in terms of never changing your mind or opinion. I am talking about consistency in terms of not having a double standard based on whether you like/agree with something or not. There's a difference.

 

I fail to see the distinction.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, you throw around this term "bias" in this discussion about Ben and DD. Speaking for myself, I was forming my opinion on the facts that I know. The fan in me doesn't extend to FO personnel. I think that they are all fungible. I have already acknowledged that DD wasn't doing a good job at the end in Detroit. I also admitted to not knowing the terms surrounding DD's release from Detroit. I haven't read that article from which you quote DD, but it indicates that the parting was not mutual. I would still like to know if the terms called for the Tigers to continue to pay him. Just curiosity on my part.

 

Neither BC nor DD were doing a good job as GM when they got fired. Being that baseball Front Offices are a small closed group, the same people get recirculated. DD had the longer and more successful record of building a successful franchise so he immediately got offered an equivalent position with a premium franchise. Ben's record was at worst mainly a failure and at best it was incomplete, so he wasn't offered an equivalent position by a premier franchise. The Yankees expressed interest in him for a much lesser role and one or two lesser franchises expressed an interest in interviewing him. My opinion on Ben in my signature remains unchanged. He got fired because he was doing a bad job.

 

Not that I agree, but I can accept this as a fair opinion.

 

What I can't accept is the idea that Cherington was fired for doing a bad job but Dombrowski was fired for any reason other than he was doing a bad job. Or that Cherington was fired because Henry lost confidence in him but Dombrowski could not possibly have been fired because Ilitch lost confidence in him.

[Kimmi]

Like I said Ben had his strong points. In fairness to Ben, if what Denny McLain is true then DD is one devious SOB, just like Larry Lucchino.

 

I personally hope that it is not true.

[a700hitter]

Not that I agree, but I can accept this as a fair opinion.

 

What I can't accept is the idea that Cherington was fired for doing a bad job but Dombrowski was fired for any reason other than he was doing a bad job. Or that Cherington was fired because Henry lost confidence in him but Dombrowski could not possibly have been fired because Ilitch lost confidence in him.

 

It seems that every GM's administration runs its course, and DD 'S had run its course in Detroit. His system was not working at the end. Sometimes a fresh start is needed, and baseball is big on recycling at FO levels.

[Spudboy]

Like I said Ben had his strong points. In fairness to Ben, if what Denny McLain is true then DD is one devious SOB, just like Larry Lucchino.

 

What did McClain say? I don't know.

[Elktonnick]

I personally hope that it is not true.

 

Maybe that's what Henry wants. I think it is given Henry's past behavior.

[Elktonnick]

What did McClain say? I don't know.

Read Kimmi's post earlier in the thread.

[Kimmi]

I fail to see the distinction.

 

Double Standard:

 

Men who sleep with a lot of different women are studs.

Women who sleep with a lot of different men are sluts.

 

Changing your opinion:

 

Men who sleep with a lot of different women are studs.

Men who sleep with a lot of different women are shallow and lacking in self confidence.

[a700hitter]

What did McClain say? I don't know.

 

Neither do I. I thought McLain was dead.

[Elktonnick]

Double Standard:

 

Men who sleep with a lot of different women are studs.

Women who sleep with a lot of different men are sluts.

 

Changing your opinion:

 

Men who sleep with a lot of different women are studs.

Men who sleep with a lot of different women are shallow and lacking in self confidence.

 

All of the above may be true or may be false depending on the situation. The bias is whether one considers stud or slut as either a positive or negative attribute.

[Spudboy]

And because I'm such a fair poster, I will give the conspiracy theorists this from Detroit beat writer Drew Sharp:

 

"...there remains no public explanation for what ultimately crumbled the long relationship between Dombrowski and the Ilitches. My own suspicions from speaking with various parties in and around the Tigers is that the Ilitches thought that Dombrowski had made back-channel overtures to potential suitors for when his contract ended after the season."

 

And this from Denny McLain, though he offers no sources:

 

"Dave Dombrowski was caught dipping his hand in too many cookie jars, and in the end, it cost him his job.

 

“What he was essentially doing was talking to any number of clubs,” former Tigers pitcher Denny McLain said on CBS Sports Radio’s Ferrall on the Bench. “And listen, the world of baseball, especially at the ownership level, is a very small group. We’re only talking (about) really 32 icons who own baseball teams, so what you’ve got is you’ve got a guy who thinks he’s bigger than the game because he’s had some success in a couple of places with World Series – and that’s great success. But he came over here and he really didn’t have success.”

 

Everybody knew this day was coming, but what happened is he got caught talking to too many teams and one of those icons said something to somebody, and almost in the middle of the night, (Mike) Ilitch found out abut it, called him and said you need to hit the door and don’t look back and don’t say goodbye.”"

 

 

This does not prove anything, but it does allow for the possibility that the Sox and Dombrowski were in discussion before Dombrowski was fired.

 

I'm re-posting this so Ted can find it easily.

 

I too, thought McClain was dead. Lol.

[Kimmi]

What did McClain say? I don't know.

 

Here is a link to the article:

 

http://ferrall.radio.cbssports.com/2015/08/26/denny-mclain-dombrowski-got-caught-talking-to-too-many-teams/

 

McLain does not speak highly of Dombrowski at all. OTOH, he speaks rather highly of the Red Sox organization (thank you Ben).

[Elktonnick]

Here is a link to the article:

 

http://ferrall.radio.cbssports.com/2015/08/26/denny-mclain-dombrowski-got-caught-talking-to-too-many-teams/

 

McLain does not speak highly of Dombrowski at all. OTOH, he speaks rather highly of the Red Sox organization (thank you Ben).

 

I think Ben can do better than praise from a convicted felon.

[Elktonnick]

I'm re-posting this so Ted can find it easily.

 

I too, thought McClain was dead. Lol.

 

That's just your bias showing.

[Kimmi]

All of the above may be true or may be false depending on the situation. The bias is whether one considers stud or slut as either a positive or negative attribute.

 

I think you are reaching a bit, but let me spell it out for you. The statements above would be made by the same person. He/she considers stud to be a positive attribute, and considers slut, shallow, and lacking in self-confidence to be negative attributes.

 

You know as well as I do that double standards exist.

 

They exist in people's baseball opinions as well.

[Kimmi]

I think Ben can do better than praise from a convicted felon.

 

Of course he can. He gets high praise from me.

[a700hitter]

McLain is not a very reliable source. He is convicted drug dealer and embezzler of pension funds. He has been convicted of at least two major felonies. He's not very reputable. His word is worth nothing.

[Elktonnick]

I think you are reaching a bit, but let me spell it out for you. The statements above would be made by the same person. He/she considers stud to be a positive attribute, and considers slut, shallow, and lacking in self-confidence to be negative attributes.

 

You know as well as I do that double standards exist.

 

They exist in people's baseball opinions as well.

 

That may be true but I think none of who have posted here regarding Ben have exhibited a double standard with respect to DD or BC As I said before and I say again Ben was promoted above his level of competency to be the Chief of Baseball operations. I will add the following based on (the late) Denny McLain's comments. Ben just isn't devious enough for the job.

BTW Denny McLain is alive.

[Elktonnick]

McLain is not a very reliable source. He is convicted drug dealer and embezzler of pension funds. He has been convicted of at least two major felonies. He's not very reputable. His word is worth nothing.

 

Yea but is he biased?

[a700hitter]

I'm re-posting this so Ted can find it easily.

 

I too, thought McClain was dead. Lol.

 

Thanks.

[a700hitter]

Yea but is he biased?

 

Sociopaths are not always biased, but they are never reliable.

[Kimmi]

McLain is not a very reliable source. He is convicted drug dealer and embezzler of pension funds. He has been convicted of at least two major felonies. He's not very reputable. His word is worth nothing.

 

As I noted, he did not make any reference to any sources. This is nothing more than his opinion, based on his speculation.

 

Ilitch is the only one who knows for sure why he fired Dombrowski. The rest is speculation.

[mvp 78]

Why does Drew love the backwards k? He's up there to swing!

[Kimmi]

Why does Drew love the backwards k? He's up there to swing!

 

That depends. Are you talking about JD or Stephen?

[User Name]

All them Drew boys lack grit and dirtdogness!

[Kimmi]

All them Drew boys lack grit and dirtdogness!

 

LOL

 

The Drews are so misunderstood.

[Spudboy]

All them Drew boys lack grit and dirtdogness!

 

As a Drew basher of old I acknowledge that I became a fan of both.

 

Even old-timey guys can learn.

[a700hitter]

I loved J.D. Drew until he would tweak something. No matter how minor the tweak, even mere tightness meant buh bye for 2-3 weeks.