2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[Palodios]

We can only speculate but Ben was Chief of Baseball Operations so unless he is an entirely empty suit he can't escape responsibility for the mess. If he wasn't responsible and he was an empty suit then he should have been fired as being totally worthless. You can't have it both ways.

 

I've made this argument many times before. If you own a business, you have subordinates. When those subordinates are making smaller deals, and smaller transactions, they're not always worth your time. When it comes to spending large amounts of money, and making big deals, that is when you get involved.

 

This is a reality in most businesses. Why does it seem so far-fetched in baseball?

[Elktonnick]

I've made this argument many times before. If you own a business, you have subordinates. When those subordinates are making smaller deals, and smaller transactions, they're not always worth your time. When it comes to spending large amounts of money, and making big deals, that is when you get involved.

 

This is a reality in most businesses. Why does it seem so far-fetched in baseball?

 

It's not, but as Henry's nbr baseball operations guy he has to take responsibility for the decisions that were made. His job was to make the recommendations for those deals that were outside his budgetary authority. Ben Cherrington for all his faults is a standup guy. I never ever heard him say that Larry wanted this or that done and he Cherrington opposed it. I can recall no one definitively reporting that Sandoval or Ramirez was Larry's idea and he ordered Ben to sign them over Ben's objections. So why does any one presume that every dumb move had LL's fingerprints all over it and not Ben's. Ben either made recommendations or he didn't. And if his recommendations on major signings were not being followed by ownership then he wasn't worth the salary he was being paid.

[Palodios]

It's not, but as Henry's nbr baseball operations guy he has to take responsibility for the decisions that were made. His job was to make the recommendations for those deals that were outside his budgetary authority. Ben Cherrington for all his faults is a standup guy. I never ever heard him say that Larry wanted this or that done and he Cherrington opposed it. I can recall no one definitively reporting that Sandoval or Ramirez was Larry's idea and he ordered Ben to sign them over Ben's objections. So why does any one presume that every dumb move had LL's fingerprints all over it and not Ben's. Ben either made recommendations or he didn't. And if his recommendations on major signings were not being followed by ownership then he wasn't worth the salary he was being paid.

 

You seem to see this in black and white... he either makes all of the decisions or none of them. What if John Henry/Larry Luchhino followed Ben most of the time, but sometimes had their own opinions on larger signings? One more time, that's how owners treat their businesses.

 

There are certain moves that follow Ben/Theo's philosophies, and others that do not. There have been plenty of signings that seem like Ben believed he was smarter than everyone else and got burned. The Porcello extension may turn to be one of those signings.

[cp176]

You seem to see this in black and white... he either makes all of the decisions or none of them. What if John Henry/Larry Luchhino followed Ben most of the time, but sometimes had their own opinions on larger signings? One more time, that's how owners treat their businesses.

 

There are certain moves that follow Ben/Theo's philosophies, and others that do not. There have been plenty of signings that seem like Ben believed he was smarter than everyone else and got burned. The Porcello extension may turn to be one of those signings.

 

KiSS principle for me. You can't give Ben Cheirington credit for any good moves if you are blaming the bad ones on Lucchino, Henry, or whoever. It is all speculation on our part to think that Dombrowski has any more or any less power or authority then Cherington had. Is what it is - a guess unless you happen to be on the inside. With respect to the $ available for each of them to use, Dombrowski has chosen to use his allowance differently. I did not agree with the way Ben chose to spend his haul. I like the way DD has spent his so far. If people want to think that DD has more power and independence than Ben, so be it. Doesn't say much for Ben though.

[Bellhorn04]

Personally I'm willing to give Ben a pass for a lot of things. I don't think finishing last in 2012 was his fault. I hated finishing last in 2014, but after winning a championship the year before, I gave him a pass for that too. 2015 was his disaster, especially the pitching staff.

[Elktonnick]

Personally I'm willing to give Ben a pass for a lot of things. I don't think finishing last in 2012 was his fault. I hated finishing last in 2014, but after winning a championship the year before, I gave him a pass for that too. 2015 was his disaster, especially the pitching staff.

 

What is irrefutable is the only person with all the information about Cherrington's performance lost confidence in him and had him replaced.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Elktonnick

[Elktonnick]

You seem to see this in black and white... he either makes all of the decisions or none of them. What if John Henry/Larry Luchhino followed Ben most of the time, but sometimes had their own opinions on larger signings? One more time, that's how owners treat their businesses.

 

There are certain moves that follow Ben/Theo's philosophies, and others that do not. There have been plenty of signings that seem like Ben believed he was smarter than everyone else and got burned. The Porcello extension may turn to be one of those signings.

 

The latter part of your post says it all and proves my point, Ben did a lousy job when left to his own devices and got fired for it.

[a700hitter]

You seem to see this in black and white... he either makes all of the decisions or none of them. What if John Henry/Larry Luchhino followed Ben most of the time, but sometimes had their own opinions on larger signings? One more time, that's how owners treat their businesses.

 

There are certain moves that follow Ben/Theo's philosophies, and others that do not. There have been plenty of signings that seem like Ben believed he was smarter than everyone else and got burned. The Porcello extension may turn to be one of those signings.

it isn't black and white, but the be only people who know the inner workings of the dynamics at the executive level in the FO are the people involved. Apparently, JH and ownership felt that Ben wasn't doing the job. I don't think they would have fired him if he had opposed the bad moves and was responsible for the good moves. I don't think they would be so petty. If they had a pattern of rejecting Ben's recommendations which had turned out to be correct, I think he would still be here and owners would be listening more closely to his recommendations. Edited December 18, 2015 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

Personally I'm willing to give Ben a pass for a lot of things. I don't think finishing last in 2012 was his fault. I hated finishing last in 2014, but after winning a championship the year before, I gave him a pass for that too. 2015 was his disaster, especially the pitching staff.

Whether we give him a pass or not is irrelevant. The owners did not give him a pass and fired him. The notion that the fans drove him out of town is beyond absurd. Ownership fired him after giving him a pass on 2014. I am willing to put him in the past, because that is where he is in Red Sox history. He has to his his credit a World Championship of which he can be proud, but he is also the holder of certain ignominious records during his GM tenure. It is no longer about him. Future accomplishments of the team will not be attributed to him in any official manner. His legacy is one for message board debate and it is one that will take some time to develop, so let's wish him well and move on. Edited December 18, 2015 by a700hitter

[User Name]

KiSS principle for me. You can't give Ben Cheirington credit for any good moves if you are blaming the bad ones on Lucchino, Henry, or whoever. It is all speculation on our part to think that Dombrowski has any more or any less power or authority then Cherington had. Is what it is - a guess unless you happen to be on the inside. With respect to the $ available for each of them to use, Dombrowski has chosen to use his allowance differently. I did not agree with the way Ben chose to spend his haul. I like the way DD has spent his so far. If people want to think that DD has more power and independence than Ben, so be it. Doesn't say much for Ben though.

 

DD having more power than Cherington is not speculation, it is fact. He holds a position with inherently more power, and complete authority over baseball operations was a sticking point of his negotiations with the Red Sox.

[jacksonianmarch]

Ok, stop beating the horse fossil

[User Name]

The latter part of your post says it all and proves my point, Ben did a lousy job when left to his own devices and got fired for it.

 

How are you this bad at logical connections?

[User Name]

Ok, stop beating the horse fossil

 

^This though.

[cp176]

Whether we give him a pass or not is irrelevant. The owners did not give him a pass and fired him. The notion that the fans drove him out of town is beyond absurd. Ownership fired him after giving him a pass on 2014. I am willing to put him in the past, because that is where he is in Red Sox history. He has to his his credit a World Championship of which he can be proud, but he is also the holder of certain ignominious records during his GM tenure. It is no longer about him. Future accomplishments of the team will not be attributed to him in any official manner. His legacy is one for message board debate and it is one that will take some time to develop, so let's wish him well and move on.

 

I'm for that. He appeared to be an honest stand up sort of person. I wish him well. If he were to looks at our comments over the course of this debate, he would be surprised at how important it seems that he has become. For the record - i did not mind the Sandoval signing. I knew that we needed a third baseman. I wasn't opposed to the Porcello signing but I still think that his price tag was too high for what we got. Miley - I liked. I hated the Ramirez signing and still do.

[Elktonnick]

What I find fascinating and no one on this board has mentioned to any great degree is the Red Sox "quietly parted ways' with Jeremy Kapstein last month. If you look at Kapstein's record and read the Globe article he was more than just the guy who sat behind home plate with the big yellow earphones. He was Luchhino's guy and one who had unquestionable access and considerable influence in FO thinking.

 

I find it more than curious that Cherrington Kapstein and Luchhino all were "eased out" together. This obviously begs the question was Cherrington like Kapstein seen by Henry as Luchhino's guy. For those who like "Kremlin" watching it is an interesting question to ponder.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Elktonnick

[a700hitter]

Ok, stop beating the horse fossil

The irrelevant horse fossil.

[User Name]

Sandoval's signing was the worst move of Cherington's entire tenure. His offensive decline was a trend. Why sign two 3B then move the one who can actually hit to another position?

[Bellhorn04]

Sandoval's signing was the worst move of Cherington's entire tenure. His offensive decline was a trend. Why sign two 3B then move the one who can actually hit to another position?

 

I suspect when they looked at his 2014 numbers they made some allowance for his terrible start. From May to September his OPS was .774. In October his OPS was .888. So from May to October he was in line with his career averages.

[Palodios]

The latter part of your post says it all and proves my point, Ben did a lousy job when left to his own devices and got fired for it.

 

Right, because other GMS are perfect and don't ever make mistakes. Look at the Twins -- they've been trying to build a starting pitching staff on a budget for years, and it hasn't gone well for them either. If Ben had 250 million to spend on pitching in 2014 instead of 27 million, things would have gone differently.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Palodios

[cp176]

The signing of Ramirez made very little sense. I don't remember anyone suggesting that there were any intentions of using him in the infield at all. Nothing in his career stats indicated that he was a sure thing to revert to his 2010 and before levels of production with respect to his hitting not to mention the number of games played. Also, complicating things just a bit were the "rumors" floating around with respect to his attitude. They took an expensive shot with him. It still could work out I guess. My opinion, which I think I am entitled to, is that it was a bad sign. I also think that if there was one contract that DD could get out of having to pay it would be his.

[Palodios]

Ok, stop beating the horse fossil

 

I doubt this one will end any time soon. I'm see similar arguments going on in different Red Sox forums right now too.

[a700hitter]

Right, because other GMS are perfect and don't ever make mistakes.

 

Ben's farm system tells me that he did a lot of the little things right.

Not enough according to his bosses who fired him.

[Elktonnick]

Right, because other GMS are perfect and don't ever make mistakes. Look at the Twins -- they've been trying to build a starting pitching staff on a budget for years, and it hasn't gone well for them either. If Ben had 250 million to spend on pitching in 2014 instead of 27 million, things would have gone differently.

 

What the Cherrington sycophants fail to realize is that it was part of his job to convince ownership to allocate the resources necessary for him to make proper acquisitions. When he was provided those resources, however, he used them poorly and failed to achieve the desired results.

 

Now the "Poor Ole Ben Cherrington " crowd says well if he had the money for pitching that Dombrowski has he'd have done just as well. However, that belies another irrefutable fact, the person in the best position to evaluate Ben's performance decided he wanted to trust some one other than Ben to make those decisions. I guess John Henry didn't think Ben accomplishments with the farm system worth that much to trust him being one to lead the team's baseball operations going forward.

[Spudboy]

I would really like to know where Fred would stand on this.

[a700hitter]

What the Cherrington sycophants fail to realize is that it was part of his job to convince ownership to allocate the resources necessary for him to make proper acquisitions. When he was provided those resources, however, he used them poorly and failed to achieve the desired results.

 

Now the "Poor Ole Ben Cherrington " crowd says well if he had the money for pitching that Dombrowski has he'd have done just as well. However, that belies another irrefutable fact, the person in the best position to evaluate Ben's performance decided he wanted to trust some one other than Ben to make those decisions. I guess John Henry didn't think Ben accomplishments with the farm system worth that much to trust him being one to lead the team's baseball operations going forward.

But he was a snappy dresser.

[a700hitter]

I would really like to know where Fred would stand on this.

That was my good laugh for the day. Thanks Pete!

[cp176]

I would really like to know where Fred would stand on this.

 

Let me think about that for a second or two - nope - don't need that long.

[Palodios]

What the Cherrington sycophants fail to realize is that it was part of his job to convince ownership to allocate the resources necessary for him to make proper acquisitions. When he was provided those resources, however, he used them poorly and failed to achieve the desired results.

 

John Henry has stated many many times that he did not want to give out a long term contract to a pitcher. The only thing that convinced him otherwise was two losing seasons.

[a700hitter]

John Henry has stated many many times that he did not want to give out a long term contract to a pitcher. The only thing that convinced him otherwise was two losing seasons.

Billionare puppet.

[Elktonnick]

John Henry has stated many many times that he did not want to give out a long term contract to a pitcher. The only thing that convinced him otherwise was two losing seasons.

 

And your point is?

 

Whether Dombrowski convinced Henry to change his mind or Henry changed his mind on his own, (one can only speculate which) the end result is the same Henry didn't trust Cherrington to lead the effort to rebuild the Red Sox.

 

I suspect that those two losing seasons raised legitimate questions about Cherrington's competence to run baseball operation. I think Henry made the right decision. Cherrington needed someone more competent to run baseball ops.

 

Like I've said before I have no problem with Ben as an advisor but I think the results raise serious reservations about his fitness to be the top guy in any major league baseball operations shop.