Sox vs. ... Like who gives a crap?

[jad]

So the year is so calamitous that no one even bothers to follow or comment on games anymore?

[Palodios]

Did we really skip three game threads this weekend? Clearly we've all moved on to football.

[a700hitter]

That's pretty emblematic of how bad the 2014 team has been. I didn't expect a playoff team in 2014, but I did expect competitiveness and some excitement. This has been a horror show wire to wire. From the opening weekend on, this has been a horrible season. Other than David Ortiz, the 2014 gave us nothing to watch. I am a bit pissed at the FO for giving us a season that was a complete and utter failure without Amy glimmer of excitement. If this was a rebuild year, it failed in that regard too. Our top prospects have proved to be major duds and extremely overrated. Our pitching prospects have looked average at best. It has been football season since mini-camp.

[Elktonnick]

For the baseball purist such as myself while this season has been frustrating and very depressing it actually has been quite interesting especially from an analytical point of view. There is a lot to discuss as to what the club needs to do to right the ship. It is easy to root for a winner. The mark of the true fan are those who follow this team day to day when they are down. I just hope the franchise doesn't go into a twenty drought as they did in the fifties and early sixties. I am too old to wait that long.

[a700hitter]

For the baseball purist such as myself while this season has been frustrating and very depressing it actually has been quite interesting especially from an analytical point of view. There is a lot to discuss as to what the club needs to do to right the ship. It is easy to root for a winner. The mark of the true fan are those who follow this team day to day when they are down. I just hope the franchise doesn't go into a twenty drought as they did in the fifties and early sixties. I am too old to wait that long.

I like to analyze what we need whether things are going well or bad. I am glad that there are a few fans who haven't abondoned ship who have the stomach to talk about how to improve the team. However, none of that helps on game day when I do like to be entertained with good baseball ocassionally. I like you am too old for a prolonged drought. I also don't like throwing away an entire season. Sadly, I have few interests beyond the Red Sox.e Red

[Palodios]

Our top prospects have proved to be major duds and extremely overrated. Our pitching prospects have looked average at best. It has been football season since mini-camp.

 

Take 3 top prospects, and you usually get one star, one starter, and one dud. Mookie is looking like the star, and we're all hoping one of Xander/Bradley turns into a starter by the end of the season.

[a700hitter]

Take 3 top prospects, and you usually get one star, one starter, and one dud. Mookie is looking like the star, and we're all hoping one of Xander/Bradley turns into a starter by the end of the season.

Betts was considered to be the least major league ready of Middlebrooks, Bradley and XB as this season began. It was not likely that he would see any major league time in 2014. Middlebrooks already had major league time under his belt and XB and Bradley were deemed ready for prime time. Each of them proceeded to destroy his value by failing miserably. These were not bumps in the road or growing pains. These were major thudding failures. Betts-- a star! He has been the best of the lot and has not been an automatic out at the plate like the others. He has held his own with the bat. He is going through a normal transition with some bumps, but let's not blow him up into the next Nomar just yet. We still don't have a position for him yet.

 

As for our pitching prospects, Ranaudo is not going to live up to the hype that surrounded him when he was drafted. He just doesn't have the raw stuff, and it is really difficult for a guy that big to have Mike Maddox like command to succeed with average stuff. Webster is on the fast track to palooka-ville. De La Rosa has shown some promise of holdng down a rotation spot in 2015.

 

The 2014 season was not just a failure in the standings, but it exploded the myth of our deep talent in the minors. It was overall a calamity for the organization.

Edited September 8, 2014 by a700hitter

[Palodios]

The 2014 season was not just a failure in the standings, but it exploded the myth of our deep talent in the minors. It was overall a calamity for the organization.

 

Not all prospects turn into stars, or regulars. We've seen lots of prospects fail, but lots of prospects do fail.

 

Not many teams get a chance like this, to figure out which of their prospects are major leaguers, and which are 4A material. I'd much rather see Webster prove he is a 4A guy now than in a season that matters. Hopefully the team is figuring out that Workman is a reliever, and that Bradley doesn't have a place on the team. And that Mookie Betts and Henry Owens are the players who are untouchable.

 

If the Red Sox didn't know what they had, and traded RDLR, Betts, and Vazquez for an aging star, and were stuck with Webster, Bradley, and WMB, most of us would have been pretty pissed.

[a700hitter]

Not all prospects turn into stars, or regulars. We've seen lots of prospects fail, but lots of prospects do fail.

 

Not many teams get a chance like this, to figure out which of their prospects are major leaguers, and which are 4A material. I'd much rather see Webster prove he is a 4A guy now than in a season that matters. Hopefully the team is figuring out that Workman is a reliever, and that Bradley doesn't have a place on the team. And that Mookie Betts and Henry Owens are the players who are untouchable.

 

If the Red Sox didn't know what they had, and traded RDLR, Betts, and Vazquez for an aging star, and were stuck with Webster, Bradley, and WMB, most of us would have been pretty pissed.

I am not sure what you mean by the highlighted sentence. Are you saying that most teams do not have the opportunity to crash and burn and come in last place as the result of bringing up 3 prospects and handing them starting positions? There is nothing positive to be taken from 2014 except that Big Papi is still a beast with the bat. We traded our good pitchers and kept the trash pitchers. Our prospects blew up in our faces. These prospects were so highly touted that a package containing all of them had a shot to net us Stanton. Now, they could fetch us very little.

[jad]

It was easier to follow them through horrendous years in the 50s and 60s because the rosters were relatively stable--it was 'our' guys, for better or worse. Ike Delock and Gary Geiger? well, that's who we got. I don't know who these guys are now, or why they're out there--why root for Craig? or WMB? or whoever is on the mound if they aren't likely to be on the team next year and in some cases don't represent it now? (Not asking to return to the exploitative, pre-free-agent days; it's just the way things are. And the FO isn't making things any clearer by dumping 3 of 5 starting pitchers--and destroying the one strength the team apparently had.)

[Bellhorn04]

I am not sure what you mean by the highlighted sentence. Are you saying that most teams do not have the opportunity to crash and burn and come in last place as the result of bringing up 3 prospects and handing them starting positions? There is nothing positive to be taken from 2014 except that Big Papi is still a beast with the bat. We traded our good pitchers and kept the trash pitchers. Our prospects blew up in our faces. These prospects were so highly touted that a package containing all of them had a shot to net us Stanton. Now, they could fetch us very little.

 

I see Palodios's point. How do you find out if it's Betts or Bradley who's the real deal until you see them play in the bigs for a while?

 

As for trading for Stanton, nobody knows exactly when the Marlins will be ready to entertain offers. If it's not until next offseason, does that mean we should be keeping all our prospects in the minors until then to max their trade value?

 

There's a lot of luck involved in all this stuff.

[a700hitter]

I see Palodios's point. How do you find out if it's Betts or Bradley who's the real deal until you see them play in the bigs for a while?

And it comes at the expense of a flame out year. The cost was extremely high.

 

As for trading for Stanton, nobody knows exactly when the Marlins will be ready to entertain offers. If it's not until next offseason, does that mean we should be keeping all our prospects in the minors until then to max their trade value? There's a lot of luck involved in all this stuff.

Stanton was just an example. The FO gets paid to know which prospects to pump and dump and which to hold onto. They blew it. It's that simple. They could have moved these guys before the 2014 season and gotten a sweet return. If you want to give them an excuse for this, fine. I don't. And the fact is that these players lost a lot of value since opening day. Chalking it up to bad luck is a bit of a cop out, unless you also attribute the successes to luck.

[Bellhorn04]

And it comes at the expense of a flame out year. The cost was extremely high.

 

Stanton was just an example. The FO gets paid to know which prospects to pump and dump and which to hold onto. They blew it. It's that simple. They could have moved these guys before the 2014 season and gotten a sweet return. If you want to give them an excuse for this, fine. I don't. And the fact is that these players lost a lot of value since opening day. Chalking it up to bad luck is a bit of a cop out, unless you also attribute the successes to luck.

 

The only guy I can see they may have made a costly mistake with is Bradley. We're a long way from knowing if Bogaerts will live up to the hype. And Betts looks pretty good.

 

2014 is a disaster, I don't disagree in the least. But it will be a while before we know just how badly they judged the value of the prospects.

[a700hitter]

The only guy I can see they may have made a costly mistake with is Bradley. We're a long way from knowing if Bogaerts will live up to the hype. And Betts looks pretty good.

 

2014 is a disaster, I don't disagree in the least. But it will be a while before we know just how badly they judged the value of the prospects.

 

What about Middlebrooks? You don't think his value has diminished?

 

As for XB, while we may be a long way off from knowing whether he will be a solid major league ballplayer, we pretty much know that he is not going to live up to the "through the roof" hype that was floating around before the beginning of 2013.

[Bellhorn04]

What about Middlebrooks? You don't think his value has diminished?

 

I think it diminished this year, yes. But I don't think it was that high at the start of 2014.

[a700hitter]

I think it diminished this year, yes. But I don't think it was that high at the start of 2014.

Prior to 2014, he was still known as a legitimate power threat. After putting up 2 knocks in 200 ABs, it's hard to sell anyone on that attribute.

[Spudboy]

Prior to 2014, he was still known as a legitimate power threat. After putting up 2 knocks in 200 ABs, it's hard to sell anyone on that attribute.

 

I see and understand your point and to a large degree I agree with what you have said.

 

It's very discouraging to see WMB still having trouble with braking pitches down and outside the zone or whatever his hole is.

 

But while his value has been diminished over the past two seasons ( by injury and failure to progress ), I'll bet that more than a few teams would still be in on getting him in trade. The promise of power is intoxicating and it seems that someone will be infatuated by the idea that Middlebrooks would hit with power for them.

 

The big problem now is who will be the Sox everyday 3rd baseman going forward?

 

Cherrington has said that it won't be Holt and Cecchini is nowhere near ready.

 

What a mess!

[seabeachfred]

For the baseball purist such as myself while this season has been frustrating and very depressing it actually has been quite interesting especially from an analytical point of view. There is a lot to discuss as to what the club needs to do to right the ship. It is easy to root for a winner. The mark of the true fan are those who follow this team day to day when they are down. I just hope the franchise doesn't go into a twenty drought as they did in the fifties and early sixties. I am too old to wait that long.

 

You're too old? Think about your good buddy here Elk. See what you think of this dream I had.......prescience or flat ********??? About the first of March I had this dream that I would, with God's grace, go to 93, a very lucky number for me. That meant I would see 20 more Red Sox seasons, 2014-2033. In that dream there were TWO, count them, two World Series Titles. I wondered if I could make that dream a reality would I seize upon it or just chuck it and try for more than two. As I write this I do feel a little silly having to share this stuff with others who think I might be a little off my trolley but I wonder what percentage on this board would be satisfied with two titles in the next 19 season----19 because this season is in the crapper.

[Spudboy]

Not all prospects turn into stars, or regulars. We've seen lots of prospects fail, but lots of prospects do fail.

 

Not many teams get a chance like this, to figure out which of their prospects are major leaguers, and which are 4A material. I'd much rather see Webster prove he is a 4A guy now than in a season that matters. Hopefully the team is figuring out that Workman is a reliever, and that Bradley doesn't have a place on the team. And that Mookie Betts and Henry Owens are the players who are untouchable.

 

If the Red Sox didn't know what they had, and traded RDLR, Betts, and Vazquez for an aging star, and were stuck with Webster, Bradley, and WMB, most of us would have been pretty pissed.

 

Maybe not many but there are always a few each season and those teams are almost always at the bottom of the standings and rarely make the playoffs.

 

That's the problem with where the Sox are now.

 

I said much earlier in this season that Boston is not a player development market. And for those here that are still confused by what I said then, I mean to say that Boston fans are not accustomed to seeing year after year of young players in the lineup who are not legitimate MLB ready talent. And Boston fans are pretty used to seeing teams that hold the promise of the playoffs or at least winning the majority of the time.

 

Now the Sox are one of the have nots. Yes, I know that the Sox have some good talent on the 25 man. But they just do not have enough of the pieces to compete now. And the near term does not look any better. Next season is shaping up to be more of the same or even worse now that there is no starting rotation.

 

Ben and the Rich boys need to make some big splashes this off season or many people will abandon this team.

[seabeachfred]

Not all prospects turn into stars, or regulars. We've seen lots of prospects fail, but lots of prospects do fail.

 

Not many teams get a chance like this, to figure out which of their prospects are major leaguers, and which are 4A material. I'd much rather see Webster prove he is a 4A guy now than in a season that matters. Hopefully the team is figuring out that Workman is a reliever, and that Bradley doesn't have a place on the team. And that Mookie Betts and Henry Owens are the players who are untouchable.

 

If the Red Sox didn't know what they had, and traded RDLR, Betts, and Vazquez for an aging star, and were stuck with Webster, Bradley, and WMB, most of us would have been pretty pissed.

 

Palodios, the problem most of us had was that we took the propaganda the front office gave us about Bogaerts and Bradley and swallowed the Kool Aid. Never will I do that again. Both turned out to be duds and I'm not sure if Bogaerts will ever live up to his buildup. He has been a car crash this season almost as bad as Bradley. Now from MY take on things and s*** canning the front office, Betts is keeper. He is headed for some great seasons for us as soon as we fine a spot for him in the lineup. Vazquez is a terrific defensive catcher but we have a better all around backstop down in AAA in Blake Swihart. I've seen enough film of him to say he is the real thing. We should not trade him---and here's a prediction. Garin Cecchini will make a strong comeback next season and be our third baseman byu June or July. He is now looking like the hitter we all thought he was, but Betts is the key here along with Blake. Neither of those to must be traded.

[Palodios]

Maybe not many but there are always a few each season and those teams are almost always at the bottom of the standings and rarely make the playoffs.

 

That's the problem with where the Sox are now.

 

I said much earlier in this season that Boston is not a player development market.

 

The Red Sox are going to be okay. The farm system isn't the superstar factory we thought it was, but there is plenty of money available this offseason. The offense has turned a corner, and the pitching has some pretty strong #3/4/5 options. They need to go out and get that #1 and #2 guy, and maybe another bat, but I see enough pieces and money to get this team back to contention.

[Spudboy]

Palodios, the problem most of us had was that we took the propaganda the front office gave us about Bogaerts and Bradley and swallowed the Kool Aid. Never will I do that again. Both turned out to be duds and I'm not sure if Bogaerts will ever live up to his buildup. He has been a car crash this season almost as bad as Bradley. Now from MY take on things and s*** canning the front office, Betts is keeper. He is headed for some great seasons for us as soon as we fine a spot for him in the lineup. Vazquez is a terrific defensive catcher but we have a better all around backstop down in AAA in Blake Swihart. I've seen enough film of him to say he is the real thing. We should not trade him---and here's a prediction. Garin Cecchini will make a strong comeback next season and be our third baseman byu June or July. He is now looking like the hitter we all thought he was, but Betts is the key here along with Blake. Neither of those to must be traded.

 

Fred, I'm not going to defend the front office on this. Yes, they probably did hype those kids too much. But I think the over valuation of the Sox prospects has a lot to do with the availability of stats and videos on-line and the ever important social media!

 

It's too easy to build these guys up into something that it will be too hard to achieve with all the stuff people can say on-line. Just look at Talksox, as an example.

 

I remember not too long ago when Middlebrooks and Lavarnway were being impatiently touted as the next big Sox stars right here on Talksox.

 

Now look at where they are!

 

I say until a guy consistently proves that he can play well in the majors that it's too early to project him as a star.

 

Of course that is not how things work now. Teams want to build interest in their prospects to help bolster the fan base and to make other teams believe that they have something of value that they should want in trade.

[Spudboy]

The Red Sox are going to be okay. The farm system isn't the superstar factory we thought it was, but there is plenty of money available this offseason. The offense has turned a corner, and the pitching has some pretty strong #3/4/5 options. They need to go out and get that #1 and #2 guy, and maybe another bat, but I see enough pieces and money to get this team back to contention.

 

I share your optimism, Pal, for the reasons you have stated. However, I don't think that the Sox have an abundance of 3/4/5 pitching prospects near MLB readiness.

 

I see maybe 2 #5s and possibly a #4 on the roster now.

 

The Sox will need a number 1 and number 2, to be sure. And possibly a 3 depending on how Kelly develops.

 

I'm kind of high on Steven Wright this season. I see him as a decent candidate for long relief and spot starter next season.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, I'm not going to defend the front office on this. Yes, they probably did hype those kids too much. But I think the over valuation of the Sox prospects has a lot to do with the availability of stats and videos on-line and the ever important social media!

 

It's too easy to build these guys up into something that it will be too hard to achieve with all the stuff people can say on-line. Just look at Talksox, as an example.

 

I remember not too long ago when Middlebrooks and Lavarnway were being impatiently touted as the next big Sox stars right here on Talksox.

 

Now look at where they are!

 

I say until a guy consistently proves that he can play well in the majors that it's too early to project him as a star.

 

Of course that is not how things work now. Teams want to build interest in their prospects to help bolster the fan base and to make other teams believe that they have something of value that they should want in trade.

 

Last year baseball pundits picked the Red Sox to have the second best selection of prospects in all of Major League baseball while the Angels were ranked dead last. You think so? Well they dip into their "barren" minor league system and come up with a first baseman named Cron, two outfielders named Cowgill and Calhoun and a pitcher named Schumacher......and they have all performed well this season, some in regular roles and a couple as valued reserves. US???????? Bradley had been a total disaster, Bogaerts a near car wreck, Middlebrooks a bomb and the pitchers brought up on our farm bitter disappointments. No one who follows the Red Sox should believe a word of crap coming from Charington, Hazen and the rest of the dolts running our minor leagues. You mentioned Lavarnway. He hit 32 homers in 2010 and instead of being put on the team was sent down again. I think he may have lost his confidence when that happened. He was at least as capable a defensive catcher as Salty was but the Red Sox went with the latter. I guess it turned out OK since Jarrod was part of a WS Title team last year, but Ryan was hurt by his demotions. Even last season when brought up he his just under 300. So there is more there than meets the eye. Either way, my point is that none of us should take anything the FO throws at us except with a fine grain of salt. Me? I like Betts, Swihart and Cecchini will eventually be solid players for us......if they are not ruined or jerked around by the Sox. The front office hyped and picked the wrong people to hit their wagon to. I think with the three I mentioned they could make amends for their miserable judging of the talent they tried to sell us.

[a700hitter]

Maybe one of the positives that will come out of 2014 will be that the owners and FO will come to the conclusion that our scouting department needs some revamping.

[Palodios]

I share your optimism, Pal, for the reasons you have stated. However, I don't think that the Sox have an abundance of 3/4/5 pitching prospects near MLB readiness.

 

I see maybe 2 #5s and possibly a #4 on the roster now.

 

The Sox will need a number 1 and number 2, to be sure. And possibly a 3 depending on how Kelly develops.

 

I'm kind of high on Steven Wright this season. I see him as a decent candidate for long relief and spot starter next season.

 

I think that between Kelly, De La Rosa, Buchholz and Ranaudo, they will be able to pull together a mid-to-back end of the rotation. I'm not concerned about those spots. The #1 and #2 spots are the ones I am concerned about.

[Spudboy]

I think that between Kelly, De La Rosa, Buchholz and Ranaudo, they will be able to pull together a mid-to-back end of the rotation. I'm not concerned about those spots. The #1 and #2 spots are the ones I am concerned about.

 

Agreed.

[gojohn99]

I have tickets to tomorrow's game. I'd have to sell them at a loss, so I guess I'm going. This is as bad as late 2012 as far as interest in the games.

[a700hitter]

I have tickets to tomorrow's game. I'd have to sell them at a loss, so I guess I'm going. This is as bad as late 2012 as far as interest in the games.

I dumped all of my tickets from June until September at a loss. It wasn't worth the trip up there to see the horror show, and I couldn't get anyone to join me. So, I dumped them just like in 2012.

[gojohn99]

Anyway it is rare to develop 3 superstars. Perhaps you will hit the jackpot with one, and a few others may be decent major league players. Right now Betts and DeLaRosa seem to be the best of the bunch. If Jackie Bradley Jr could only hit a little! I think WMB is done and the jury is still out on Bogaerts