2012

[jad]

I have hope. If they can just win tonight, they will only need to win the next six to match their historic pace of 2012--a performance that of course resulted in a WS win the following year.

[seabeachfred]

I have hope. If they can just win tonight, they will only need to win the next six to match their historic pace of 2012--a performance that of course resulted in a WS win the following year.

 

Got you jad!!!!!! Way to go---hope for the afflicted fan. Man, have we really hit the skids this low?

[sk7326]

When you win a title - the right to complain the next season is very very low. This has not been a Marlins fire sale - just some crappy fortune and a little front office hubris.

[gojohn99]

Yes there was no fire sale. Still it's fun to complain, right? I am sad to be finding the World Cup more interesting than most Sox games lately.

[seabeachfred]

When you win a title - the right to complain the next season is very very low. This has not been a Marlins fire sale - just some crappy fortune and a little front office hubris.

 

In most cases sk you would be right on, but no one believed we could be this bad, this inept. When you are bad as we've been complaints is one of the few items you have to vent your frustration.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox are on a pace to lose 90 games this season. If that happens, they will have lost 90 games in 2 out of 3 seasons separated by a World Championship season. That would be bizarre. Putting this in context, in the 48 years that I have been a fan (including 2014), 90 loss seasons have been more rare for the Red Sox than World Championships.

[jad]

The Red Sox are on a pace to lose 90 games this season. If that happens, they will have lost 90 games in 2 out of 3 seasons separated by a World Championship season. That would be bizarre. Putting this in context, in the 48 years that I have been a fan (including 2014), 90 loss seasons have been more rare for the Red Sox than World Championships.

 

Youngster! You missed the Ike Delock, Gary Geiger, Don Buddin years! (But you're right--it's a completely bizarre 3 seasons, actually 4, if you count the September meltdown the year before--the record also destroys the seemingly rational narrative that could be constructed around, say, the evils of Josh Beckett and Bobby Valentine).

[a700hitter]

Youngster! You missed the Ike Delock, Gary Geiger, Don Buddin years! (But you're right--it's a completely bizarre 3 seasons, actually 4, if you count the September meltdown the year before--the record also destroys the seemingly rational narrative that could be constructed around, say, the evils of Josh Beckett and Bobby Valentine).

LOL!! At 8 years old, I was a front-runner. I started rooting for the Sox in 1967. I did miss Geiger and Buddin and Dr. Strangeglove.

[Spudboy]

The Red Sox are on a pace to lose 90 games this season. If that happens, they will have lost 90 games in 2 out of 3 seasons separated by a World Championship season. That would be bizarre. Putting this in context, in the 48 years that I have been a fan (including 2014), 90 loss seasons have been more rare for the Red Sox than World Championships.

 

Yup. When you follow the Sox for as long as we have you tend to "see it all".

 

We have both seen some bad teams and miserable seasons. The 3 World Series wins have sort of clouded my memory of some of the suck that I have seen from the Sox.

 

In any case, this season is really awful because the Sox on paper appear to have most of the pieces to win.

[seabeachfred]

LOL!! At 8 years old, I was a front-runner. I started rooting for the Sox in 1967. I did miss Geiger and Buddin and Dr. Strangeglove.

 

Not a front runner Ted----just good timing. Besides, you were in the vanguard for the birth of Red Sox Nation. You do know that all started with the "Impossible Dream" season of your epiphany into Red Sox fandom, don't you? Besides next to me you are a kid. Hell the 50's are young....haven't you heard?

[seabeachfred]

Yup. When you follow the Sox for as long as we have you tend to "see it all".

 

We have both seen some bad teams and miserable seasons. The 3 World Series wins have sort of clouded my memory of some of the suck that I have seen from the Sox.

 

In any case, this season is really awful because the Sox on paper appear to have most of the pieces to win.

 

 

Well compared to you and 700 and I guess a lot of others, I would be what you'd call a "johnny-come-lately and will celebrate by 14th anniversary with my own Red Sox epiphany on August 19. I have caught hell from friends and "foe" alike on the boards when they take me to task for not understanding how bad things were in the years I didn't have a clue about the Sox. Hell, though, late 2001 was pretty brutal, 2003's ALCS was a killer, 2009-2012 were both disappointing and heart breaking and I wonder if I could have endured if I had come aboard in say 1991 instead, or even in the 60's.

[Wasatch]

I've been following the RedSox since about 65-66. They usually suck around Aug and miss the playoffs.

[a700hitter]

I've been following the RedSox since about 65-66. They usually suck around Aug and miss the playoffs.

Before 69 there were no playoffs and there was no Wild Card until 1995. Since 1967 we have lost 90 or more games once in 2012 and won 3 championships. They have usually fielded competitive teams that win more than they lose. If we lose 90 games for the second time in 3 years and only the second time in 48 years, that would be some historic suck for the Sox.

[Behindenemylines]

Everything that could go right last year did, and everything that could go wrong this year has. The big difference between 2012 and this year is that the Sox have a lot of good young players in the high minors that are knocking on the door. If their fortunes don't change in the next few weeks I think we see the Sox being big sellers before the deadline and a lot of the young guys in the second half. Even though they are losing you don't have the same feeling as 2012. In 2012 there was no hope until the Punto trade. This year you look at the young pitching at AA, AAA and in Boston and there is hope. It does hurt to see a Red Sox team struggle to score runs. Then again scoring is down all over the league.

[a700hitter]

Everything that could go right last year did, and everything that could go wrong this year has. The big difference between 2012 and this year is that the Sox have a lot of good young players in the high minors that are knocking on the door. If their fortunes don't change in the next few weeks I think we see the Sox being big sellers before the deadline and a lot of the young guys in the second half. Even though they are losing you don't have the same feeling as 2012. In 2012 there was no hope until the Punto trade. This year you look at the young pitching at AA, AAA and in Boston and there is hope. It does hurt to see a Red Sox team struggle to score runs. Then again scoring is down all over the league.

I think that you are completely right. Last year, amazed me as everything seemed to break our way. That team was a resilient fighting bunch and their efforts rarely went unrewarded. I did not think they were the most talented team last year by any stretch. When you get a run of good fortune like that, you expect that your fortunes will turn eventually, and they have turned bad dramatically this season. The feeling is different this year than 2012, largely because we are not saddled with a bloated payroll full of sloths and bad attitudes, but also it feels different because we are still basking in a cinderella Championship season. That being said, if we have another 90+ loss season that will mean a lot of pain for the fans as 90 loss seasons is something that is really unprecedented for everyone other than very senior Sox fans.

[Behindenemylines]

I think that you are completely right. Last year, amazed me as everything seemed to break our way. That team was a resilient fighting bunch and their efforts rarely went unrewarded. I did not think they were the most talented team last year by any stretch. When you get a run of good fortune like that, you expect that your fortunes will turn eventually, and they have turned bad dramatically this season. The feeling is different this year than 2012, largely because we are not saddled with a bloated payroll full of sloths and bad attitudes, but also it feels different because we are still basking in a cinderella Championship season. That being said, if we have another 90+ loss season that will mean a lot of pain for the fans as 90 loss seasons is something that is really unprecedented for everyone other than very senior Sox fans.

 

Yes, the 2013 Championship makes this season's losing easier to swallow. An you are also right that if the Sox lose 90 games and finish out of the playoffs the feelings of 2012 will start to return. The longer this season goes on it has become obvious that the 2013 Championship is one that the baseball gods gave us as payback for all of the years of suffering.

[Palodios]

6 games back on the wildcard. Plenty of pitching depth and plenty of infield and catching depth in the minors. Brock Holt is a monster, and Rubby has been awesome.

 

The next four series are Cubs, O's, White Sox, Astros. Besides the Orioles, those are all very bad teams.

 

They need two more outfielders, and the Victorino setback is a big loss. Alex Rios is on the market, maybe if the Sox pick up the tab, Felix could pull him in. Just get a little better on offense, that's all they need.

[a700hitter]

6 games back on the wildcard. Plenty of pitching depth and plenty of infield and catching depth in the minors. Brock Holt is a monster, and Rubby has been awesome.

 

The next four series are Cubs, O's, White Sox, Astros. Besides the Orioles, those are all very bad teams.

 

They need two more outfielders, and the Victorino setback is a big loss. Alex Rios is on the market, maybe if the Sox pick up the tab, Felix could pull him in. Just get a little better on offense, that's all they need.

This is definitely a great opportunity for the Sox to pick up some ground - playing 3 of the small handful of teams with worse records than the Red Sox. They have 5 or 6 teams to climb over in the Wild Card hunt. If they don't make a major move over this stretch, 2014 I over for them.

[Spudboy]

I believe that I suggested Alex Rios!!

 

Seriously, the Sox have the chips to play with. If Rios can be had I say go for it.

 

But only if they intend to compete in the playoffs this year.

 

I know nothing about how much Rios is being paid. I believe it is 13-15 mil through next year. I don't know how his salary would work.

[a700hitter]

I believe that I suggested Alex Rios!!

 

Seriously, the Sox have the chips to play with. If Rios can be had I say go for it.

 

But only if they intend to compete in the playoffs this year.

 

I know nothing about how much Rios is being paid. I believe it is 13-15 mil through next year. I don't know how his salary would work.

I think they have to do something to keep the team competetive. 90 loss seasons drain fan interest from the franchise which is not easy to regain as they find other forms of entertainment. Look at this forum. Since we have been losing many of the noisier pom pom waving posters are gone. I don't think the Red Sox FO wants its fan base to disengage. I think they will try to kick start them back to competitiveness. Edited June 27, 2014 by a700hitter

[Spudboy]

I think they have to do smething to keep the team competetive. 90 loss seasons drain fan interest from the franchise which is not easy to regain as they find other forms of entertainment. Look at this forum. Since we have been losing many of the noisier pom pom waving posters are gone. I don't think the Red Sox FO wants its fan base to disengage. I think they will try to kick start them back to competitiveness.

 

I hope that you are right Ted. 90 loses is not acceptable in this market. Maybe some will accuse me of being "entitled". I don't think so. I do expect that the Sox will do whatever they can do each year to put a competitive team on the field. That has not happened yet this season.

 

Let's hope for the best.

[Palodios]

The other thing to consider is that the Red Sox can be very flexible because of the cost of many of their players.

 

They could potentially be buyers in June/July, and if it doesn't stick, they can still be sellers on the waiver wire.

 

Peavy at $15 million, Drew at $10 million, Buchholz at 8 + 12 million, AJ at $10 million. Even trade targets like Alex Rios and Cuddyer are expensive enough that they can be passed through waivers and moved to the right teams for mid-value pieces.

[a700hitter]

I wonder if Betts will get called up this weekend against the Yanks now that Victorino has been shut down again.

[seabeachfred]

6 games back on the wildcard. Plenty of pitching depth and plenty of infield and catching depth in the minors. Brock Holt is a monster, and Rubby has been awesome.

 

The next four series are Cubs, O's, White Sox, Astros. Besides the Orioles, those are all very bad teams.

 

They need two more outfielders, and the Victorino setback is a big loss. Alex Rios is on the market, maybe if the Sox pick up the tab, Felix could pull him in. Just get a little better on offense, that's all they need.

 

Hot damn Pal, I love your upbeat outlook---and don't let anyone tell you otherwise but I have this optimistic bug in my system that is just dying to come out but it's been hard because except for isolated instances of some good individual pitching performances and a few big hits from Papi there hasn't been much to turn me on. One thing I do believe though. Somehow we have to summon the best we have and win this series in New York. That would enliven even the more cynical of us. And keep your upbeat persona going. This ranter loves it.

[seabeachfred]

I think they have to do something to keep the team competetive. 90 loss seasons drain fan interest from the franchise which is not easy to regain as they find other forms of entertainment. Look at this forum. Since we have been losing many of the noisier pom pom waving posters are gone. I don't think the Red Sox FO wants its fan base to disengage. I think they will try to kick start them back to competitiveness.

 

Thanks for you support Ted----and I even agreed with you when you said I was acting like an ******* arguing with Ellsbury the way I was. Not bothering with that topic anymore if I can. Well one thing is certain, I'm no pom-pom waver, just a noisy guy who rants now and then, lately mostly now. As I said to Spud, I think it was yesterday, I didn't really expect the Red Sox to get back to the WS this year because so many things broke out way last season even on paper we were not the best team. However, I never thought we would be playing this poorly, and the olden day be damned, the Red Sox aren't supposed to play like that in the 21st Century and Spud had it right. The Red Sox are not supposed to play this way.

 

Damn, I finally remembered......I would like to recommend a nice book to read.....Maybe some of you bought and read it already but if you haven't it is worth the treat......"IDIOTS REVUISITED"---the capsule story of the 2004 Red Sox, the players who made it happen, what they thought about it then, how it has affected them today, and brings everyone up to date about how their doing a decade after that historic season.

 

I was only in my fourth-plus year of fandom so to me it was simply my team won, beat the Yankees in the ALCS and swept the Cardinals in the WS...that and little more. For most of you who back a generation or two or three this would have so much more significance for you, and that is stressed throughout the book. Personally my favorite of the three Red Sox World Series Champions was 2007 but I'm willing to bet most of you will pick the '04 team in an instant.

 

The most wistful part is the last chapter called "Idiot Exodus"----and it was exactly that. Within two years the 2004 infield was gone, three of the five starting pitchers were somewhere else and one of the starting outfielders was playing in enemy country. In fact a second OF, Trot Nixon, was seen less and less that season as he was constantly battling knee and shoulder injuries. Well I told you.....I did my good deed for the day. Now I hope the Red Sox do theirs.

Edited June 27, 2014 by seabeachfred

[sk7326]

Yes, the 2013 Championship makes this season's losing easier to swallow. An you are also right that if the Sox lose 90 games and finish out of the playoffs the feelings of 2012 will start to return. The longer this season goes on it has become obvious that the 2013 Championship is one that the baseball gods gave us as payback for all of the years of suffering.

 

6 WHOLE YEARS!!!! The horror!!!

[jad]

The other thing to consider is that the Red Sox can be very flexible because of the cost of many of their players.

 

They could potentially be buyers in June/July, and if it doesn't stick, they can still be sellers on the waiver wire.

 

Peavy at $15 million, Drew at $10 million, Buchholz at 8 + 12 million, AJ at $10 million. Even trade targets like Alex Rios and Cuddyer are expensive enough that they can be passed through waivers and moved to the right teams for mid-value pieces.

 

Wait. I don't understand. I realize that they have grossly overpaid some underperforming players. Exctly how does that make them 'flexible'? Who in the world would want these guys?

[Spudboy]

Wait. I don't understand. I realize that they have grossly overpaid some underperforming players. Exctly how does that make them 'flexible'? Who in the world would want these guys?

 

What don't you understand? Obviously any team that has a need for one of the positions mentioned or a pitcher. Even Drew has value.

 

Jettisoning payroll can create roster flexibility.

[Palodios]

Wait. I don't understand. I realize that they have grossly overpaid some underperforming players. Exctly how does that make them 'flexible'? Who in the world would want these guys?

 

There are two trade deadlines. One is the standard trade deadline, the other is the waiver trade deadline. After the trade deadline has passed, high salary players that are not claimed on waivers can still be traded -- That's how the Agon/Crawford/Beckett trade happened.

[jad]

What don't you understand? Obviously any team that has a need for one of the positions mentioned or a pitcher. Even Drew has value.

 

Jettisoning payroll can create roster flexibility.

 

Oh ok. But you're really talking next year, right? I just can't see any team picking up a $10 Drew (they all had the opportunity to do this, and no one did), or a $15 mil Peavy. What you're saying is that the Sox can just get rid of them (even if it means paying some of this year's salary), and start again. So in that sense, yes, they can change their commitment from underperforming veterans to prospects (but it won't be free).