Did David Ortiz ever use steroids?

[Emmz]

I hope that my Miss America analogy was not offensive to our women readers.

 

It was very shallow, Ted, but I know how you men are.

[sk7326]

PED use creates an uneven playing field, because not everyone does it. Believe it or not, even in the heyday of PEDs before the drug testing, a lot of players were clean. Canseco, who is trying to make money and sell books claims that two-thirds were doing it. That is probably an overstatement, but even if accepted on it's face, there were at least 250 MLB players who were clean at the height of the usage. They had an unlevel playing field and they were cheated. The fans were cheated, because we thought that we were witnesses to something special watching Bonds and the MGWire Sosa HR chase and Clemens and so on. Now, we realize that they just gave themselves an unfair edge. I used to watch the Giants a lot and marvel at Bonds. His plate discipline was unbelievable and when the pitcher threw him a strike, he crushed the ball at a phenomenal rate. He almost never missed his pitch or failed to crush it. He was always great, but earlier in his career, you could get him out with pitches out of the zone. He was playing in an otherworldly manner in his Giant days. It was special to watch. Now, it just seems fake and not special. It's like finding out that Miss America had a boob job before the pageant. Yes, she is a beautiful girl, but she shouldn't have won because she was artificially enhanced, fake.

 

That is a fair sentiment - although what the actual effects were is harder to actually peg. Baseball involves so many special, learned skills that whatever steroids produced is not as cut and dried as say the edge they give football players. (who still routinely do this stuff) Bonds 2004 was still unfathomable - the ability to hit literally the only good pitch you see all game was still pretty incredible. The 2004 season with its baffling .609 OBP (and I think he's a giant jerk btw) - the only hitter that you could say truly managers and other players feared (they may say that about others but only Bonds got them to act like it).

 

What is the heydays of PEDs? Well, amphetamines and greenies had been around for decades and more or less commonly accepted. I don't get too wrapped up in the numbers implications - guys used amphetamines in the 60s, the owners systematically kept subsections of players from playing baseball in the 30s and 40s (and in the Red Sox and Yankees cases, further than that). All of the numbers require some context.

 

It happened, baseball rolled in dough because of it - a rolling in dough that STILL continues (the fan interest and attendance never went down - only writers seemed particularly interested and still are in the witch hunt aspects of it) ... I am glad that they fixed it, at least from a PR perspective - you don't want kids getting into this stuff, and baseball was extremely unfairly maligned compared to other sports. I feel bad for those who were clean in the old days (although that number is probably not that big) - and for obvious HoFers who get shafted because of playing in the wrong time. (Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio hello!)

[BornToRun]

I'd have to say that PEDs or no PEDs, what Barry Bonds did during the 2000's was ridiculous.

[Emmz]

I have a strong suspicion that my boy Bellhorn was a juicer. He hit some pretty impressive shots in that 2004 postseason. Even that one he hit in Game 6. He took an outside pitch and drove it into the left field seats, on a cold and misty night. And the one he hit in Game 7 was an absolute moonshot.

 

It's the only explanation for him hitting 17 home runs that year.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Emmz

[a700hitter]

It was very shallow, Ted, but I know how you men are.

My apologies. I am a flawed man. I am not proud to say that I like the fake ones as well as the real ones. LOL!!!

[Emmz]

I'd have to say that PEDs or no PEDs, what Barry Bonds did during the 2000's was ridiculous.

 

The s*** he was using supposedly helped his plate discipline, not just with getting ripped. Idk if he was using amphetamines on top of the steroids, or if that was just one drug, but he was cheating in more ways than just getting superhuman power.

 

On top of that, it definitely was PEDs.

[Bellhorn04]

I'd have to say that PEDs or no PEDs, what Barry Bonds did during the 2000's was ridiculous.

 

But you can't just say 'PEDs or no PEDs'. Look at McGwire before and after PEDs. He might have had trouble hitting 15 HRs in 1998 without the PEDs.

[Emmz]

My apologies. I am a flawed man. I am not proud to say that I like the fake ones as well as the real ones. LOL!!!

 

Every man is flawed in that way.

 

.... It's only natural?

[a700hitter]

I have a strong suspicion that my boy Bellhorn was a juicer. He hit some pretty impressive shots in that 2004 postseason. Even that one he hit in Game 6. He took an outside pitch and drove it into the left field seats, on a cold and misty night. And the one he hit in Game 7 was an absolute moonshot.

The biggest tragedy to come out of the PED scandal is that no one from the late 90's on is beyond suspicion. They are all tainted.

[sk7326]

I'd have to say that PEDs or no PEDs, what Barry Bonds did during the 2000's was ridiculous.

 

Ignore the 73 homerun season - that 2004 is mindblowing. .609 OBP, 232 walks. He had more IBBs than any team did that season. Considering the backflips we do justifiably over .400 OBP sorts, it was another planet. I have no doubt the drugs contributed - but it couldn't be 100%, and certainly none of the critics or writers seem the least bit interested in that part of the story.

[Bellhorn04]

Ignore the 73 homerun season - that 2004 is mindblowing. .609 OBP, 232 walks. He had more IBBs than any team did that season. Considering the backflips we do justifiably over .400 OBP sorts, it was another planet. I have no doubt the drugs contributed - but it couldn't be 100%, and certainly none of the critics or writers seem the least bit interested in that part of the story.

 

Well, it's pretty hard to calculate 'PED adjustments'.

[mvp 78]

The s*** he was using supposedly helped his plate discipline, not just with getting ripped. Idk if he was using amphetamines on top of the steroids, or if that was just one drug, but he was cheating in more ways than just getting superhuman power.

 

On top of that, it definitely was PEDs.

Another issue was his now illegal elbow pad which was designed to smoothen his swing. It helped give his balls a little extra lift.

[BornToRun]

I have no problem with people not liking players that use PED's. I understand that people feel lied to or cheated or whatever other reasons they have for not liking steroid users.

 

I just don't feel the same way. I never had a huge issue with it and if Pedey or Ells or Buch ever got caught, I really wouldn't be bothered by it except of course for the suspension. Just my feelings on the matter.

[Emmz]

Ignore the 73 homerun season - that 2004 is mindblowing. .609 OBP, 232 walks. He had more IBBs than any team did that season. Considering the backflips we do justifiably over .400 OBP sorts, it was another planet. I have no doubt the drugs contributed - but it couldn't be 100%, and certainly none of the critics or writers seem the least bit interested in that part of the story.

 

It's no secret that Bonds was a HOF talent before using steroids.

 

He just definitely wasn't going to have anything close to a .600 OBP without them, though. You can't really say how much it helped him, but I'm willing to bet his highest OBP without steroids would be well over 100 points lower had he not been juicing.

[sk7326]

I have no problem with people not liking players that use PED's. I understand that people feel lied to or cheated or whatever other reasons they have for not liking steroid users.

 

I just don't feel the same way. I never had a huge issue with it and if Pedey or Ells or Buch ever got caught, I really wouldn't be bothered by it except of course for the suspension. Just my feelings on the matter.

 

This. I tend to be fairly ambivalent. Certainly don't feel a moral outrage about it - any of that Shaughnessy-esque sanctity of the game nonsense. I have a hard time believing the teams were in the dark on it - Selig is happy to let the players bask in the wrath, but it's impossible that the teams were not partially culpable.

 

I am glad their testing policy has gotten tougher - nothing wrong with that, as long as they start taking the confidentiality part of the thing seriously. It's a giant loophole in that Biogenesis case - and something that could screw up future appeals.

[Emmz]

I have no problem with people not liking players that use PED's. I understand that people feel lied to or cheated or whatever other reasons they have for not liking steroid users.

 

I just don't feel the same way. I never had a huge issue with it and if Pedey or Ells or Buch ever got caught, I really wouldn't be bothered by it except of course for the suspension. Just my feelings on the matter.

 

No one necessarily dislikes any of them, they just aren't shown the same respect because it's fake.

 

For all of you Halo fans out there, it's like going online and you think you're good until some guy with softmods keeps killing you in one shot. Yeah he beat you, and yeah he's technically better than you since he can kill you in one shot, but he's also a cheater.

[sk7326]

It's no secret that Bonds was a HOF talent before using steroids.

 

He just definitely wasn't going to have anything close to a .600 OBP without them, though. You can't really say how much it helped him, but I'm willing to bet his highest OBP without steroids would be well over 100 points lower had he not been juicing.

 

Well the brunt of the OBP was the unfathomable number of walks - he had a spectacular batting eye and managers were idiots about refusing to pitch to him.

[Bellhorn04]

I have no problem with people not liking players that use PED's. I understand that people feel lied to or cheated or whatever other reasons they have for not liking steroid users.

 

I just don't feel the same way. I never had a huge issue with it and if Pedey or Ells or Buch ever got caught, I really wouldn't be bothered by it except of course for the suspension. Just my feelings on the matter.

 

Well then, you would be very much bothered by it, because they'd be suspended and they'd be mortified in the media like Ryan Braun. If you like the idea of Dustin Braun, I guess it wouldn't be an issue for you.

[BornToRun]

No one necessarily dislikes any of them, they just aren't shown the same respect because it's fake.

 

For all of you Halo fans out there, it's like going online and you think you're good until some guy with softmods keeps killing you in one shot. Yeah he beat you, and yeah he's technically better than you since he can kill you in one shot, but he's also a cheater.

 

Fair enough. I get what you're saying and I can understand how someone might feel that way.

[BornToRun]

Well then, you would be very much bothered by it, because they'd be suspended and they'd be mortified in the media like Ryan Braun. If you like the idea of Dustin Braun, I guess it wouldn't be an issue for you.

 

What I meant is that it wouldn't affect my opinion of them as players. I wouldn't decry them as cheaters, liars, etc. etc. I'd just be upset that they'd gotten busted.

[Emmz]

Well the brunt of the OBP was the unfathomable number of walks - he had a spectacular batting eye and managers were idiots about refusing to pitch to him.

 

He was probably using Adderall or something.

[a700hitter]

The s*** he was using supposedly helped his plate discipline, not just with getting ripped. Idk if he was using amphetamines on top of the steroids, or if that was just one drug, but he was cheating in more ways than just getting superhuman power.

 

On top of that, it definitely was PEDs.

Before All of the PED use hads been exposed, I would watch Bonds and marvel at his plate discipline. Once he was busted as a PED user, I still wondered whether it helped his plate discipline which was so much better than before his PED use. It was explained to me that some stuff does help your vision and it does help your reflexes. An improvement in vision and/or reflexes would help him identify pitches a minute fraction of second earlier and allow him to wait a fraction longer before committing. In a game of inches and fractions of inches, improving by a fraction catapulted a great ballplayer's performance into the performance of an All Time legend.

 

The real measure of Bonds was how he played before he got the big mellon head and the raisen sized testicles, and that was a pretty great ballplayer. He had won 3 MVP's. The melon head Bonds was all fake, -- power and plate discipline-- it was all enhanced. Of all the PED users, Bonds is the one who was certain to go to the HOF if he had not used PEDs. They say it about Clemens, but he had less than 200 wins when he left Boston and the Duke was right-- he was in the twilight of his career before it was revived pharmaceutically. At 200 + wins, his case for HOF would not be as strong as Schill's, because Schill had the post-season legend status.

[a700hitter]

What I meant is that it wouldn't affect my opinion of them as players. I wouldn't decry them as cheaters, liars, etc. etc. I'd just be upset that they'd gotten busted.

I would.

[Bellhorn04]

What I meant is that it wouldn't affect my opinion of them as players. I wouldn't decry them as cheaters, liars, etc. etc. I'd just be upset that they'd gotten busted.

 

Your opinion of MVP Ryan Braun as a player hasn't been affected at all?

 

How about batting champ Melky Cabrera?

Edited August 23, 2013 by Bellhorn04

[a700hitter]

Every man is flawed in that way.

 

.... It's only natural?

Well, I can't change what I like, and it is the most benign of my flaws. LOL!!

[SoxSport]

You have to search far and wide to find any reference to what the differences are between steroids and HGH. In terms of the effect on players. We know what happens with power. But what about pitching? I heard Clemens took them because he could come back quicker from injury or soreness from his last start. And which was it they were taking? Probably steroids earlier when there was no testing--and they weren't aware of the side effects--all those muscle and hip problems. After urine testing started, there was probably a shift to HGH, which can't be detected in urine--you need a blood test, and even there the stuff is out of your system within the hour.

 

That's why it's really tough to catch cheating. And prove it. Guys have to make a mistake. Or they leave a paperwork trail, which is happening now with Braun, ARod and the rest.

[Bellhorn04]

Melky Cabrera could be the new 'Before and After PED's' poster boy.

 

At the time he was suspended last year he was hitting 346/390/516.

 

This year he's hitting 279/322/360. How 'bout that 156 point drop in his SLG?

 

Plus he's only played 88 games this year and now is probably gone for the season.

 

Getting a cool 16 million from the Jays though. Serves them right.

[sk7326]

W!ell the HGH benefits are still pretty controversial - granted the studies are scarce - had to go back to 2007 for some of the good stuff http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2007/04/i-dont-worry-about-hgh-in-baseball-and-neither-should-you/ ... certainly the evidence for a drop in homeruns or a staggering change in run scoring after harsher testing hasn't really come true at all. But it is necessary to aggressively test it, if nothing to just have it covered in case Congress feels like wasting its time again.

 

Guys getting ahead of the rules will be an issue the whole way - teams want to get ahead of the rules, and will fully support it though none will ever admit it. In a sense it tells you how healthy the game is that the media and the management have spent several years demonizing its players with the broad brush without suffering at the box office.

[BornToRun]

Your opinion of MVP Ryan Braun as a player hasn't been affected at all?

 

How about batting champ Melky Cabrera?

 

Cabrera is certainly an interesting case but as far as Braun goes, I still consider him the 2011 NL MVP. He's certainly an ******* but he's an MVP ******* in my opinion.

[RedSoxNC84]

Cabrera is certainly an interesting case but as far as Braun goes, I still consider him the 2011 NL MVP. He's certainly an ******* but he's an MVP ******* in my opinion.

 

He certainly is the MVP of *******s right now.