Buchholz accused of cheating

[MJantomaso]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0lrstSN3v1r3zat8.gif

[redsoxbeatz]

it's funny b/c the Blue Jays added Melky Cabrera to their team, a known "cheater."

 

But hey whatever. I take all of this a compliment to Buchholz.

[SoxFanForsyth]

All info per Brooks Baseball:

 

4 seam Vert Movement in 2012: 10.18.

4 seam Vert Movement on Wed: 9.68.

4 seam Hor Movement in 2012: -4.25.

4 seam Hor Movement on Wed: -4.36.

 

2 seam Vert Movement in 2012: 7.95.

2 seam Vert Movement on Wed: 6.63.

2 seam Hor Movement in 2012: -6.00.

2 seam Hor Movement on Wed: -7.58.

 

** Please note, for his career, his 2 seam Hor Movement averaged -7.21 **.

 

Changeup V Mvmt in 2012: 5.78.

Changeup V Mvmt on Wed: 4.86.

Changeup H Mvmt in 2012: -1.36.

Changeup H Mvmt on Wed: -1.59.

 

Curve V Mvmt in 2012: -6.78.

Curve V Mvmt on Wed: -7.97.

Curve H Mvmt in 2012: 9.82.

Curve H Mvmt on Wed: 9.01.

 

Cutter V Mvmt in 2012: 7.23.

Cutter V Mvmt on Wed: 5.11.

Cutter H Mvmt in 2012: 1.69.

Cutter H Mvmt on Wed: 1.87.

 

Every single pitch outside of the horizontal movement on his cutter and horizontal movement on his curve was either less than or consistent with 2012. This entire allegation is absolutely absurd. Both Jack Morris and Dirk Hayhurst are complete clowns who do less than zero analytics on the entire situation. They saw something white on his arm based on a grainy photo, jumped to conclusions, and are now looking like morons. Take that garbage to Reddit you armchair investigators. And stop act like you know anything about baseball.

[jung]

What I posted earlier might seem hard to imagine. However in truth the well thrown spitter breaks so late and so sharply downward that there is really no mistaking what it is once you have seen it and know what to look for.

 

In fact later in Gaylord Perry's career it got to the point where there was no sense in announcers hiding what was going on. Some of them would in a very matter of fact tone, just in the flow of the broadcast identify the pitch as the spitter just as if they were announcing a curve ball or some other pitch. For the most part the umps had given up trying to find where Gaylord had the stuff hidden that day and managers stopped trying to get umps to look for it. That's one of the things that annoys me about this. These are baseball people. They know what a spit ball looks like.

[BornToRun]

I think we've established that clay hasn't been loading up the ball and on the off chance that he was, who cares? People have doctored the ball for as long as there's been baseball. Big whoop.

[User Name]

All info per Brooks Baseball:

 

4 seam Vert Movement in 2012: 10.18.

4 seam Vert Movement on Wed: 9.68.

4 seam Hor Movement in 2012: -4.25.

4 seam Hor Movement on Wed: -4.36.

 

2 seam Vert Movement in 2012: 7.95.

2 seam Vert Movement on Wed: 6.63.

2 seam Hor Movement in 2012: -6.00.

2 seam Hor Movement on Wed: -7.58.

 

** Please note, for his career, his 2 seam Hor Movement averaged -7.21 **.

 

Changeup V Mvmt in 2012: 5.78.

Changeup V Mvmt on Wed: 4.86.

Changeup H Mvmt in 2012: -1.36.

Changeup H Mvmt on Wed: -1.59.

 

Curve V Mvmt in 2012: -6.78.

Curve V Mvmt on Wed: -7.97.

Curve H Mvmt in 2012: 9.82.

Curve H Mvmt on Wed: 9.01.

 

Cutter V Mvmt in 2012: 7.23.

Cutter V Mvmt on Wed: 5.11.

Cutter H Mvmt in 2012: 1.69.

Cutter H Mvmt on Wed: 1.87.

 

Every single pitch outside of the horizontal movement on his cutter and horizontal movement on his curve was either less than or consistent with 2012. This entire allegation is absolutely absurd. Both Jack Morris and Dirk Hayhurst are complete clowns who do less than zero analytics on the entire situation. They saw something white on his arm based on a grainy photo, jumped to conclusions, and are now looking like morons. Take that garbage to Reddit you armchair investigators. And stop act like you know anything about baseball.

 

In all fairness, they probably know more about baseball than you or i do, having played professionally and all. The problem is that they're sore losers and they're pissed that Buchholz is owning them hard.

[Bellhorn04]

SI's Verducci's analysis:

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130503/clay-buchholz-spitball-red-sox-blue-jays-joey-votto-matt-harvey/?sct=uk_t11_a4

[jung]

According to Remy the reason Hayhurst is such an ******* is because he only presented the information he wanted to present.

 

I knew Buch whipped off a lot. In fact I have seen him go to his mouth more than once between pitches and wipe off every time after going to his mouth. Remy says he went back and looked at every pitch from that game and reports that Buch whipped off every time before throwing every pitch.

 

As for what Hayhurst was claiming...I really don't know. Although he did say the words.....He did describe it as loading up the baseball. I have always used that term to describe the spit ball, the Gaylord Perry and others...spitter. That sort of pitch is almost unhittable and sometimes is unhittable.

 

So if Hayhurst is accusing Buch of doing something to get a better grip and has decided to use the term loading the baseball to do it that is sorta' sucky. I think the whole thing is ******** because Hayhurst is only presenting the information he wants to present and he is presenting it in a way that is frankly less than accurate, disingenuous and designed to be purposefully provocative.

 

As for trying to get a better grip which I for one have never described as "loading the baseball", all pitchers try things to get a better grip. If Buch is using a combination of rosin and water, I don't see what Hayhurst is complaining about, especially since Buch whips off before every pitch.

[Behindenemylines]

Why is the Blue Jays announcers saying Buchholtz is cheating? You would think it would be a member of the Jays on the playing field. A player, the manager, or a coach. If they are not complaining then this is just a load of crap.

[SoxFanForsyth]

In all fairness, they probably know more about baseball than you or i do, having played professionally and all. The problem is that they're sore losers and they're pissed that Buchholz is owning them hard.

 

I know, I know, the last part was a bit of a low blow, but regardless, if you're going to call someone out for cheating, you better be 110% sure that he is cheating. And looking at the movement on his pitches, it's all consistent, so they have no valid argument that any 'doctoring' they think he's doing is having any affect on his pitches.

[YAZMAN]

I think we've established that clay hasn't been loading up the ball and on the off chance that he was, who cares? People have doctored the ball for as long as there's been baseball. Big whoop.

 

Good for Clay. The distraction to a hitter worrying about a ball getting loaded is generally more of an edge than actually loading the ball anyway.

[Bellhorn04]

Verducci makes a pretty strong case that whatever Buch has on his arm, it isn't rosin. Rosin doesn't shine like that.

 

Verducci's position seems to be this : 'yes, he's cheating, a little...but so are many other pitchers, and that's why the Jays didn't make a fuss about it.'

[BSN07]

This is like the guy playing the violin on the Titanic. It will distract some from the real issue at hand which is the ship is sinking and your probably boned.

[SoxFanForsyth]

For visual guys, here's an awesome link to a FG article that shows two of Buchs pitches overlaid on each other, and deciphers the movement from 2012 to 2013.

 

You will enjoy.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/visually-comparing-clay-buchholz-2012-2013/

[SoxSport]

SI's Verducci's analysis:

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130503/clay-buchholz-spitball-red-sox-blue-jays-joey-votto-matt-harvey/?sct=uk_t11_a4

 

Verducci is a smart guy, but his analysis is subjective. I don't trust any of these network media types who are based in NY and are "amazed" the Red Sox are doing so well. It is not so amazing when you consider last year they underperformed so badly. A lot of these guys are simply playing up to their potential. The networks have predictably grabbed this story, which is based on pure speculation--not by the Toronto team, mind you, as some have reported, but by a couple of Jays' booth announcers. No team accusation. Wonder why not.

 

If there was anything obvious on Buchholz's arm, the umpires would notice. I suppose they'll dream up a similar explanation for Lester. Maybe Farrell brought a few tricks with him from Toronto? More likely a matter of knowing the Red Sox pitchers and fixing their mechanics. Something the media has yet to point out.

[User Name]

Verducci is a smart guy, but his analysis is subjective. I don't trust any of these network media types who are based in NY and are "amazed" the Red Sox are doing so well. It is not so amazing when you consider last year they underperformed so badly. A lot of these guys are simply playing up to their potential. The networks have predictably grabbed this story, which is based on pure speculation--not by the Toronto team, mind you, as some have reported, but by a couple of Jays' booth announcers. No team accusation. Wonder why not.

 

If there was anything obvious on Buchholz's arm, the umpires would notice. I suppose they'll dream up a similar explanation for Lester. Maybe Farrell brought a few tricks with him from Toronto? More likely a matter of knowing the Red Sox pitchers and fixing their mechanics. Something the media has yet to point out.

 

This couldn't be farther from the truth, like almost everything else you ever post.

[SoxSport]

For visual guys, here's an awesome link to a FG article that shows two of Buchs pitches overlaid on each other, and deciphers the movement from 2012 to 2013.

 

You will enjoy.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/visually-comparing-clay-buchholz-2012-2013/

 

ha. looks the same to me--within standard deviation. no big difference. that's the story.

[SoxSport]

I don't think Buchholz is loading the ball or cheating or whatever. I will say tho as a pitcher myself I lick my fingers after every pitch and wipe on my pants right after that and even though I have wiped there is a residual "stickiness" that I find helps me with my breaking pitches. I don't think it makes my pitches better, just the grip feels better. So I would imagine grabbing his wet hair or rubbing his arm probably does have some effect on his grip. But I don't see it as any different then say Yu Darvish or Dice K or just about everyone else rubbing their forearms and then rubbing down the ball, which they do all the time.

 

They all do something to get a better grip. The combination of wet, usually from perspiration, and rosin.

[Lord Snow]

I know most people here have defended Buchholz but let me just state my observations:

 

Do I think Clay Buchholz is doctoring the baseball? Absolutely not. I don't see abnormal-funky movement on his pitches, and unless he has been doing it since day 1 I tend to think he isn't cheating.

 

Clay has had filthy stuff since he was a rookie and its evidenced by his second career start no-no.

 

His biggest struggles have been staying healthy and consistent. Everybody seemed to think Clay Buchholz was going to lay an egg this season, but I always found those expectations to be unfounded. He was DOMINANT, one of the best pitchers in baseball, from June-September 2012. He had a rough first two months and got tattooed in his final start of the season, but other than that he was a boss for 2/3 of a season!

 

Now he opens the season like a boss, consistent just like he was between June and September 2012, and people accuse him of cheating?

 

I see markedly better control from Buchholz in 2013, just like I saw during that dominant stretch in 2012. He is consistently hitting his spots. He's throwing all his pitches for strikes. That is a very tough combination to beat and the results are there.

[jung]

Well for me, "loading the baseball" sits at the extreme end of doctoring the baseball. I also think that is why Remy reacted so angrily at the accusation. He takes the same position. Loading the baseball at least as I have always seen the term used means the Gaylord Perry spitter. "Doctoring" up to loading the baseball can mean anything that helps the pitcher get a better grip. Much of it accepted and not challenged by umps....some of it maybe more questionable but still not really challenged by umps. Clay's stuff is pretty good but the distinguishing characteristics of the well thrown spitter are so far away from what Clay gets on his pitches that the two things are not even on the same planet.

[Orange Juiced]

I really, really cannot believe this story has any legs. It's amazing that there continue to be actual stories from major organizations (like ESPN) on this.

[Orange Juiced]

They all do something to get a better grip. The combination of wet, usually from perspiration, and rosin.

 

Pitchers do this all the time. They prespire, wipe their fingers across their arm or forehead, or, standing behind the mound, lick their fingers, and apply rosin. Combination of wet and rosin. All Buchholz does is apply rosin to his forearm and wipe his fingers across that. It's the same thing, but he doesn't have to go to the back of the mound to apply it.

 

If rosin is LEGAL - and it obviously is, because every mound in MLB has a rosin bag there - then it's LEGAL for Buchholz to use it.

[jung]

And remember as Remy has pointed out, Buch wipes off every single time before he grips the baseball. The whole thing is the most ridiculous story I have seen in a long time and really unfair to Buch. The guy is trying to get into his head. This bum is no longer even directly in the employ of a ML team.

[Orange Juiced]

And remember as Remy has pointed out, Buch whips off every single time before he grips the baseball. The whole thing is the most ridiculous story I have seen in a long time and really unfair to Buch. The guy is trying to get into his head. This bum is no longer even directly in the employ of a ML team.

 

Yep. My concern for Clay is not that he'll get "caught" cheating or anything like that, but rather that this will mess with his head.

[SoxSport]

Buchholz ought to sue those announcers in Toronto for defamation of character. The Canadian liability laws are different from ours---the media doesn't have the 1st amendment to hide behind.

[User Name]

What the f*** are you talking about? That's not how a defamation lawsuit works.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Actually, I think it might in Canada.

[User Name]

No, it really doesn't. For it to have been a lawsuit-worthy slander, it couldn't have been an implication, which is what Dick did, but rather a direct accusation.

 

If you read what he said, he never directly accused Buchholz of "cheating". All Hayhurst said publicly was that Buchh loaded his arm with something, and said "wow" through twitter.

 

You can't (well you can, but you shouldn't because it won't prosper) base a lawsuit off an implication, and even then, where is the provable damage done to Buchholz' reputation that would impede him from performing the activities that ensure his livelihood?

 

It's not that simple.

[User Name]

Something else: The accusation has to be false, and as much as it may piss everyone off, it most likely isn't. He was loading his arm with something that's not rosin, and while umpires or the other team won't check for it or punish a pitcher, it does violate a rule in the MLB rulebook.

 

For further illustration: Canadian Bar Association website, defamation and libel definitions and characteristics

[Youk Of The Nation]

Oh. Well, that'll teach me to practice Canadian law without a license.