Francona Co-writes book with Shaughnessy

[Palodios]

Sounds pretty brutal already! Not much we don't already know, but he's confirmed a lot of things. I had no idea Shaughnessy was involved.

 

 

 

Werner talked about slumping television ratings and whined, ‘We need to start winning in more exciting fashion.' ”

 

* From Epstein: “They told us we didn’t have any marketable players, that we needed some sizzle. We need some sexy guys. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. This is like an absurdist comedy. We’d become too big. It was the farthest thing from what we set out to be.”

 

* Back to Francona: "One thing the players were always asking for was getaway day games. The owners would never go for it. They couldn’t have more day games because the ratings were already suffering, and that would have hurt worse.”

 

* More Francona: “Our owners in Boston, they’ve been owners for 10 years. They come in with all these ideas about baseball, but I don’t think they love baseball. I think they like baseball. It’s revenue, and I know that’s their right and their interest because they’re owners — and they’re good owners. But they don’t love the game. It’s still more of a toy or a hobby for them. It’s not their blood. They’re going to come in and out of baseball. It’s different for me. Baseball is my life.”

[jacksonianmarch]

This will be good.

[BSN07]

Should be no big surprises. Him stating that the ownership group pushed for the flashy names as opposed to developing talent was obvious. Still should make for a good read.

[seabeachfred]

Sounds pretty brutal already! Not much we don't already know, but he's confirmed a lot of things. I had no idea Shaughnessy was involved.

 

 

 

Werner talked about slumping television ratings and whined, ‘We need to start winning in more exciting fashion.' ”

 

* From Epstein: “They told us we didn’t have any marketable players, that we needed some sizzle. We need some sexy guys. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. This is like an absurdist comedy. We’d become too big. It was the farthest thing from what we set out to be.”

 

* Back to Francona: "One thing the players were always asking for was getaway day games. The owners would never go for it. They couldn’t have more day games because the ratings were already suffering, and that would have hurt worse.”

 

* More Francona: “Our owners in Boston, they’ve been owners for 10 years. They come in with all these ideas about baseball, but I don’t think they love baseball. I think they like baseball. It’s revenue, and I know that’s their right and their interest because they’re owners — and they’re good owners. But they don’t love the game. It’s still more of a toy or a hobby for them. It’s not their blood. They’re going to come in and out of baseball. It’s different for me. Baseball is my life.”

 

Palodios, five will get you ten that this thread will consume a lot of our attention for quite awhile. Some of us have had deep suspicions about the Red Sox ownership for a few years now and suddenly on January 22 all hell may break loose. A lot of what I have already red from you and on other sites already tells a damning story and I sometimes wonder how we got all above this and still won two WS Titles during their reign. The thing that most impressed me was when Francona said they were not baseball people. Many of us have been saying that too for quite some time. I'll get that book the day it comes out.

[dupree]

I dont think Francona writes this book if he was still in Boston and finished his managerial career here. Its a shame that when people are let go from jobs they go back and slam their previous employers. Im not saying that the owners are perfect and that they didnt do things wrong here and there and that their love for the game is not in the right place, what im saying is i just held Terry Francona into a higher place and class and i just hope this book doesnt blackball his name. Some like when secrets come out and cant get enough of scandals while others just want the stuff behind the scenes stay behind the scenes, i am one of those people, i wont be purchasing this book i believe what goes on behind the scenes is their business and all i care about is if the team wins and is exciting to watch and has the potential to win World Series Championships.

 

I hope those who purchase and read really enjoy the book. And i hope the book does well and flys off the shelves. Im a big Tito fan and just hope this doesnt tarnish his character

[SoxSport]

Tito may be right about upper management sucking. But he sucked, too. He forgot about fundamentals his last couple years, and let the team get away from him. The players liked him because he left them alone--gave them a lot of leeway. Didn't criticize them publically like V foolishly did. Good guy, but he managed the last couple years like he was bored.

 

Every organization has a life cycle. They peak and they fall. The Red Sox peaked--and fell a couple years ago. The FO, Lucchino and Henry aren't the same as they were 5-10 years ago. They have made a lot of bad decisions. I can't see the current management group turning things around. It's time for them to move on. They need some new blood from the top down which is more interested in the team winning championships than NESN ratings.

[User Name]

I don't understand the whole "baseball people" babble. Most baseball owners are businessmen first, and interested in baseball second.

[Dojji]

I sometimes wonder how we got all above this and still won two WS Titles during their reign.

 

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/lbrownie/curt-schilling-tip-cap.jpg

 

And they managed to screw him over too, by insisting he try to rehab a shoulder that clearly needed to be surgically repaired.

 

Gotta love that Red Sox medical staff.

[jung]

I have often said here that I think somewhere along the way, something like "the fans got theirs [championships] and now it is time for us to get ours" in the form of maximizing their ROI leaked into ownership's thinking.

 

I absolutely believe that baseball owners are businessmen first and foremost. It is a business for them and they compete in a world of maximizing ROI. My problem with the information that has been coming out for awhile now, seemingly supported by these snippets from the new book is that looking to seed the team with players in the way suggested by these comments is bad business...not good business. To me it is the kind of thinking that not only results in missed business objectives but missed baseball objectives as well.

 

Sure you could say that the teams that won it all in 2004 and then again in 2007 were popular because they won....I sure cannot argue with that. However with few exceptions they were teams in the sense that the pieces fit both in the clubhouse and in a baseball sense. Those teams had a team persona that resonated for the fans. Sure Manny was a great hitter but the fact that he was a bit of a nut worked here....amongst the Kevin Mullar's and Pedey and Ortiz and Paps and even Youk. As much as some of the players were stars, the team was really the star. Of course as we have often discussed, those teams could pitch as well...an area of the team that has seemingly gone unattended during this same period of bringing in big name ballplayers, mainly everyday players to boot.

 

If in fact ownership started to push for players that independent of the team had "star power" they lost it on both scores. They no longer had a team persona that engendered empathy from the fans. The Sox no longer played like a team and they no longer had any depth of starting pitching that the team could rely on. Beckett is a pitcher. However, how much did locking him up to big money over years in his 2010 extension, a move many did not like, smack of just that same sort of star power kind of move?

 

Right in the middle of this whole mess, the organization from all outward appearances is overly focused on all of that marketing BS that revolved around the Fenway anniversary, another bad business move as they kept dropping the prices on all of that BS, a clear sign that fans were not buying the stuff.

 

So at least in my case my argument is not that my expectations for ownership is that they should not have their best business interests at the forefront. My argument is that much of what they did from about 2009 on was not good business. It was bad business and bad for the baseball.

[BSN07]

But wait, I thought the state of the team was all Theo's fault?

 

The people that burned and blamed him for everything when he was on his way out are going to look awful. I never understood the people who thought the downfall was all on Tito and Theo and the likes ok Lucchino and others never got any blame, and if they did it wasn't the same as the other two. The team became a ratings monster and had to be constantly fed even at the cost of the proven development route Theo and company had proven.

[a700hitter]

But wait, I thought the state of the team was all Theo's fault?

Sure he shoulders most of the blame. The FO opened their wallet and directred him to get exciting "sexy" players and Theo implemented that philosophy very poorly. He spent maga bucks on the likes of Lackey, Crawford and a first baseman with a bum shoulder. If he had gone for Cliff Lee and Matt Holliday the story of the last few years would have been very different the last few years in Boston. He executed the philosophy very poorly. The owners are interested in revenue and their concerns were well founded-- TV ratings had been slipping. Theo brought in the wrong guys, squandered their huge budget and left them with an enormously expensive but totally suckass team with no payroll flexibility. So, yes, he built this pile of garbage.

 

As for Francona, I love the guy, but he has a bit of an ax to grind.

[Bellhorn04]

But wait, I thought the state of the team was all Theo's fault?

 

The people that burned and blamed him for everything when he was on his way out are going to look awful. I never understood the people who thought the downfall was all on Tito and Theo and the likes ok Lucchino and others never got any blame, and if they did it wasn't the same as the other two. The team became a ratings monster and had to be constantly fed even at the cost of the proven development route Theo and company had proven.

 

I would like to ask Theo this question: whose idea was Carl Crawford? That might explain a lot. What I've heard so far is:

 

-The Red Sox scouted Crawford extensively, even reportedly following him around a bit to check him out as a person.

-Ben Cherington strongly supported the signing.

-John Henry had doubts about the signing but left it to 'baseball operations'.

[a700hitter]

I would like to ask Theo this question: whose idea was Carl Crawford? That might explain a lot. What I've heard so far is:

 

-The Red Sox scouted Crawford extensively, even reportedly following him around a bit to check him out as a person.

-Ben Cherington strongly supported the signing.

-John Henry had doubts about the signing but left it to 'baseball operations'.

If the owner had serious reservations about the signing, it's hard to blame the owner for opening up his wallet. There is plenty of blame to go around. Theo gets the lion's share for building this mess. JH is responsible for giving Theo autonomy after 2007. The FO lost a lot good baseball judgment when Bill Lajoie left. IMO, that void has yet to be filled.

[Palodios]

I would like to ask....

 

 

Who the on earth thought John Lackey was a sexy signing?

[BSN07]

I would like to ask....

 

 

Who the on earth thought John Lackey was a sexy signing?

 

Hahaha some one had serious beer goggles going

 

 

 

I thought Lucc pushed for Crawford?

 

Whatever, it's all in the past and that's where I'm leaving it. The Sox look to be on a different path now, so I'm going to look at the book and what comes from it as entertainment and that's it.

[a700hitter]

Hahaha some one had serious beer goggles going

[User Name]

I would like to ask Theo this question: whose idea was Carl Crawford? That might explain a lot. What I've heard so far is:

 

-The Red Sox scouted Crawford extensively, even reportedly following him around a bit to check him out as a person.

-Ben Cherington strongly supported the signing.

-John Henry had doubts about the signing but left it to 'baseball operations'.

 

The answer you'll probably get on both him and Lackey is LL, but Gonzalez is most likely a Theo guy.

[BSN07]

The answer you'll probably get on both him and Lackey is LL, but Gonzalez is most likely a Theo guy.

 

Gonzalez made sense though, from a baseball stand point and a sizzle stand point. Pre-ob he was a player you anchored your lineup on. The Crawford and Lackey deals are really the ones where it was like really?

[dupree]

Gonzalez made sense though, from a baseball stand point and a sizzle stand point. Pre-ob he was a player you anchored your lineup on. The Crawford and Lackey deals are really the ones where it was like really?

 

Agreed 100%

 

I just dont know how AGon's shoulder was not wrote into his contractual language and was not made into a bid deal like this Napoli deal. The medical department really slipped up on that one or maybe it was pushed to get done by the FO to lock him up no matter what. But as in this Napoli deal you would think a leak of contract language would have been known of AGon's health so for the red sox to kinda use it as leverage to get the contract signed on their terms by trying to make it seem the player is damaged goods. And that exactly what i think has happened to this point in the napoli saga but it very well be needed.

[jung]

I can not claim that I was prescient enough to see issues with bringing Agons here because I was not at the time following the path from Lackey to a few real bums and ultimately to AGons and Crawford. But I did not like either the Lackey or Crawford deals for issues specific to those players and those deals.

 

Putting aside for a moment whether any were fits or not, the similarity that is there is that in each of those three cases, the Sox paid all the money for players that either had known health issues as yet not addressed or in the case of Agons had not played a minute post op. The willingness to gamble in that way seemed to have become a Red Sox staple which blew up in their faces each and every time. If I throw the well known bums that they overpaid for in between into the mix it really sort of makes it ridiculous.

 

They paid all the money in each and every case and only in the case of Lackey did they get any contract language that offered them some compensation.

 

As for whether any of those three players would have satisfied the business objectives being discussed (guys with some sizzle)....what does Mr."God wanted it that way" perennial excuse maker Agons have that translates to sizzle in a town like Boston....at the end of the day he turned out to be a whinny little bitch that had an excuse for everything under the sun, never accepting any personal responsibility for anything. Crawford....Mr. Nervous little puppy dog shaking like a toy poodle (my apologies to toy poodles everywhere). Mr. must bat me in one place in the order and one place only...please.....another guy with a puddle of piss under his seat in the dugout.

 

The only guy that might be considered a partial fit was in fact the aforementioned Mr. Lackey...if only partially...but he is a big goofy guy with a bunch of whacky tendencies, much beloved by his teammates and in fact that does harken back memories of the championship teams. As I mentioned earlier though while all this star player horse s*** was going on the starting pitching was going to hell in a hand basket and the resultant teams bore no resemblance to the championship teams with regard to starting pitching.

 

I won't go into into details in this post about whether any of those three guys were or could be fits purely from the baseball team performance perspective but I can't say I am overly impressed there either. Briefly, Crawford...not a hope in hell....Lackey....maybe now with the aforementioned changes to the way AL East hitters seem to be approaching their business these days.....Agons...possibly, although to much emphasis on the LF wall became his undoing in 2012. Typical of AGons, he ultimately blamed the wall itself (an inanimate object) and not his complete and transparent to anybody with eyes insistence on hitting that way. Opposing pitchers were not blind to it either and the result eventually was a gargantuan slump to supplement his lagging power numbers. He could no longer drive the ball to RF and had become meat to pitchers because of his insistence in trying to take the ball to the opposite field.

 

Lackey should not have been a fit for AL East. My one hope for him is that the AL East has been gradually transitioning to a division full of swing happy hitters that have about as much discipline as a 5 year old in a candy store. That might actually work to Lackey's benefit now.

[Lucienbel]

Interesting stuff in this thread. I don't really care a whole lot for the book and probably won't read it, seems more Reality TV than baseball. I am interested to see what kind of information comes out of it and will check that out in ways other than reading the book though.

 

From the few quotes, it seems kind of believable. They definitely did go from trying to build a winning team to just bringing in names that people knew (at the very least that's what they did). Either way, this should be pretty interesting.

[Bellhorn04]

Interesting stuff in this thread. I don't really care a whole lot for the book and probably won't read it, seems more Reality TV than baseball. I am interested to see what kind of information comes out of it and will check that out in ways other than reading the book though.

 

From the few quotes, it seems kind of believable. They definitely did go from trying to build a winning team to just bringing in names that people knew (at the very least that's what they did). Either way, this should be pretty interesting.

 

According to Francona, and I believe him, what's come out so far is only a few negative or controversial things (or maybe 'sexy' things would be appropriate under the circumstances) and that the book is full of positive stuff about his time with the Sox.

[User Name]

According to Francona, and I believe him, what's come out so far is only a few negative or controversial things (or maybe 'sexy' things would be appropriate under the circumstances) and that the book is full of positive stuff about his time with the Sox.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the book contradicted a lot of what some of the "know-it-all" fans are always spouting about the FO and the inner workings of the Red Sox even though they have no actual knowledge about how things work, or why they do the things they do.

[BSN07]

I wouldn't be surprised if the book contradicted a lot of what some of the "know-it-all" fans are always spouting about the FO and the inner workings of the Red Sox even though they have no actual knowledge about how things work, or why they do the things they do.

 

They will just say Francona has an agenda

[jung]

No doubt the quotes from the book at this point are provocative and most likely the most sensational of any in the book. How many times have you gone to a movie billed as a comedy only to find that the only funny lines in the whole damn movie were in the trailer.

 

It will be interesting to see if TW's influence on the team grows with the growing importance of NESN to whole pie.

[Bellhorn04]

Now Theo has come out and refuted/explained all the apparent shots at the Sox front office like a master diplomat.

[BSN07]

Now Theo has come out and refuted/explained all the apparent shots at the Sox front office like a master diplomat.

 

Smart guy. If he gets into a back and forth it looks petty and it will just cause a circus.

[jung]

Interesting except that Theo seems to be skirting parlously close to contradicting himself when he was trying to publicly pull ownership into the same bed with him with regard to moves made from about the Beckett extension forward.

 

Maybe he should go back and read his own remarks before commenting.

 

It almost does not matter whether some will ignore the book or soak in its contents it appears. The circus continues unabated. Should not have an impact on the team though. That is unless the current Baseball Operations group which does have many from the old Theo crowd gets roped into the thing.

[SoxSport]

Epstein says the media is misinterpreting some things to make upper mgt look bad. For example, he says it was the media consultants they hired(there's the media again) who said they needed more sizzle in the lineup to build up their TV ratings--not the Red Sox mgt. My impression is Shaughnessy is stretching the emphasis a bit, though the mgt probably deserves most of the blame--including Epstein--for the demise of the team.

 

One of the reasons I'm not optimistic about the Sox is the same cast of characters are still running the team--from the FO up. I still think it's 50/50 the team gets sold within 2 years.

[a700hitter]

Epstein says the media is misinterpreting some things to make upper mgt look bad. For example, it was the media consultants they hired(there's the media again) who said they needed more sizzle in the lineup to build up their TV ratings--not the Red Sox mgt. My impression is Shaughnessy is stretching the emphasis a bit, though the mgt probably deserves most of the blame--including Epstein.

 

One of the reasons I'm not optimistic about the Sox is the same cast of characters are still running the team--from the FO up. I still think it's 50/50 the team gets sold within 2 years.

Yep, JH should have let Theo take Cherries and the whole FO to Chicago, and they should have made a fresh start. Cherries is Theo-lite or mini-Theo or Theo Jr. He will probably turn out to be part of the problem. I am hoping that he succeeds, but he is part of the same corporate indoctrination.