Your 2013 Red Sox

[jung]

I repeat, you have to change the culture of this team. That much should be obvious by now. Lackey is not going anywhere and Beckett is not enough.

 

I think Pedey would actually be a pretty attractive player out on the trade market because his salary is really quite manageable. That is the key. The team actually does get value out of a player that is an established star.

 

I just don't care about the individual numbers anymore when you stack them up against the mess that is the Boston Red Sox. People throw in the towel on any manager regaining some control of this team and frankly you cannot change out the whole team in order to regain control but you cannot throw in the towel on regaining control either. Come back with that many of the same players that are the accepted leaders of this team and you are just institutionalizing failure and a team controlled by the players....doomed!

 

However, if you get rid of a few of the guys that are associated with various aspects of this mess and draw the others in line....then you might have something. Get Beckett out of here...who gives a s*** what we get for him. Move Pedey and try to put together a deal around Pedey that actually does get you something back. Give Ortiz his deal but gain concessions from Ortiz as part of the process and deal with Lackey at a point in time when you have some leverage over him...when he can play again. Denying him playing time when he can play again is that point in time. Since he likely to be pure s*** on a stick....who cares if we sit him.....that is the problem...anybody in an MLB uniform pitching as a 3,4 or 5 can pitch as well as these guys can pitch.

 

You have to go after this at the core of the team. Anything else is playing around at the edges and you will doom yourself to another season of wondering why these guys don't play to their career stats and just start that whole process of frustration all over again. People kept pushing this career numbers crap all the way up to where we are today....below 500 as a team and likely to be below 500 as a team when the season ends.

 

This is a bad team and you cannot lay that at the foot of Mike Aviles. He is footnote.

 

I want a team that just plays, smiles and keeps its f***ing mouth shut. I don't care what V said as he turned into a lap dog to get through the season and I don't care what Pedey said to try to deflect criticism from what ultimately and finally turned out to be a comment that was roundly accepted as an early turning point in the season. Nothing looked like a coordinated "managed" effort at any time in this season. Say what want about V. He is at least enough of a manager to have made that effort if he had a team that would follow him even one step of the way.

 

As for Pedey and his value. Go ahead and wait for him to have another season like this one and then tell me what his trade value is. When does the way Pedey plays finally catch up to him. This is exactly how the Sox get into these never ending screwed up situations with the player sitting there completely valueless. Oh wait I forgot...he HAS to come back to his career numbers. Frankly I don't care if he does. Let some other team take that risk.

 

If they cannot eke value in return out of a multiplayer deal with Pedey at its core I would be very surprised. If they tried and could not then I likely would not pull the trigger. But I would make every effort to cobble together said deal.

 

At the end of the day they need pitching and using a player like Pedey at the core of a trade is likely the only way they are going to get it. They cannot come back with a rotation of Lester, Lackey, Buch, Felix, Frank and Cook. That bunch will need a 1 to neutralize Lackey among other things because Lackey will not be tradable. Lester will surely benefit from having a true 1 for the rotation as well. I do think they end up keeping Lester because they will have to get a new pitching coach anyway and I would be shocked if they did not make the recovery of Lester a priority for whoever comes in here. Regardless of what else they do, they will end up in yet another season of starters making early exits and the pen tapping out of the season when there is still season left to play if they go into next season with the guys identified above.

[wyo-sox]

Why? Nobody likes where we are at but wants to hold onto what we got ? I love Pedroia and obviously won't be sad when he comes back next year as a Red Sox player. But you are not going to get major change with minor moves. This will be three years we have nit made the playoffs, and are getting worse by the year. I vote major change. If all we are going to do is ''get rid of Beckett'' then expect the same results we are seeing this year. Getting rid of him does not replace him with a good pitcher.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Fine, go to the core of these players, that's fine.

 

But Pedroia?!? Pedroia is NOT the problem. Saying that getting rid of him will somehow change the culture of this clubhouse is a complete abomination of everything that Pedroia represents. He's an absolute dirt dog who plays at 110% every single day.

 

Do you want to change the clubhouse culture, or do you want to get rid of Pedroia because you think he's going to turn into Youkilis?? Because when you get rid of Pedroia, you change the clubhouse for the worse.

 

Not to mention that Pedroia heals much, much faster than Youkilis ever did. They said Pedroia would be in a brace for his thumb for 3 weeks and he was back in the lineup in 15 days. Pedroia has played in 150+ games in 3 of his last 4 seasons coming into this game. Youkilis hasn't hit 140 since 2008, and has never played 150 in his career. And that includes when he was a 1B where he had to run/dive virtually never.

 

Don't give me this comparison of Pedroia to Youkilis. That's a terrible, terrible comparison. Just because they both play hard and go all out doesn't mean they are going down the same path.

 

You want Pedroia out of this clubhouse? Be prepared to see a clubhouse that is even worse than it is now. Because right now, Pedroia is one of the last guys in there that actually gives a s***.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Trading Pedroia to fix the clubhouse is the equivalent of trying to fix the starting rotation by trading Buchholz.

[wyo-sox]

Trading Pedroia is not the answer, nor is trading Ellsbury.

 

Just because this has been a miserable season doesn't mean that you have to trade high quality players for 75 cents on the dollar, or worse.

 

You're already going to take a hit on trading Beckett. If you want to trade Lester, you're going to take a hit. If you want to trade Lackey, you're going to get bombed.

 

There isn't a player on this team who you can trade and expect to get equal value in return.

 

My point is that you're going to get crushed by the trades of Beckett, Lester, Lackey, etc. So why would you also put yourself in a position to get crushed by trades of two core players on top of that?

 

Soxfanforsyth, I can't say you are wrong. I guess we just see it a little different.

 

I think you were spot on in saying to get rid of one of our problem pitchers at best we get a B prospect and eat most if the money..... so the reality is we are giving them away. We know nobody wanted to trade for Beckett recently and I do not see that changing.

 

So I guess I see that we have to give one or two of the pitchers away. That does not help us move forward. That putting your shoes on but not stepping in the right direction yet.

 

You talk about getting killed on a trade with Pedroia or Ells. My position, an d I would guess that of Jungs, is that I don't think you get killed moving these guys. I do think you get really good prospects or make a move for a young ace. So if I did not get decent trade offers my position would change.

 

Lastly you asked why we get rid of core players of value? Exactly, they are the core of something that obviously is not working. Their value to this team has gotten us where we are at. Just because a player is worth lots of money or is playing well should not make one assume he is valuable to your team. If its resulting in your team playing .500 ball and missing the playoffs three straight years, then I say they are valuable players that add no value to the team. Just my uneducated thoughts.

[wyo-sox]

I guess I do not assume Pedroia is a problem or solution in the club house, none of us really know. But it does seem there is a general '' me over the team mentality''. Trading a guy like Pedroia sends a message that nobody is bigger than the team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I just need an explanation of how trading Pedroia, literally one of the only guys on the entire team who gets fired up and pissed off when they lose, helps this team and this clubhouse?

 

It just makes no sense to me. How will a trade of Pedroia help this team? Who takes his spot once he leaves? Ciriaco, with his 1.1% BB%? That's a disgusting middle infield offensively, regardless of whether you go with Iglesias or Aviles. That doesn't work in the NL, much less the AL East. You want Nate Spears up here to play 2B?

 

You don't just trade MVP's and All Star players just because the clubhouse stinks and they are the best player on your team and are having a bad season. That's the quickest way to turn into the 1993-2011 Pirates.

 

Trading Pedroia is literally just a trade to try to shake things up and you are so, so, so much worse off by trading him than you would be to retain him. You're just trading the good and keeping the s*** when you trade Pedroia.

 

It makes less than 0 sense to me, and the more I think about it, the more I am just completely dumbfounded by the idea.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Here are some quotes from Pedroia this year.

 

“The first hundred games have been (expletive),” Pedroia said. “We’re two games under .500. We’re the Boston Red Sox. If anyone’s thrilled about where we’re at, they need to reevaluate because I don’t like losing. I know everyone else doesn’t like losing. We’ve got to play better, man.”

 

“Late in the game, they extended themselves from us. That’s what great teams do,” Pedroia said. “We didn’t do anything. Our at-bats later in the game were not good. Swinging early in the count, you know. Heck, if their eighth-inning guy is going to come in the game, let’s at least get 25-30 pitches so maybe he can’t pitch tomorrow. Do something productive, and we’re not doing that. That’s the sign of not-a-winning team. Those are the little things that we need to do better. It’s frustrating.”

 

“The offense stunk,” said Dustin Pedroia. “That’s it. You don’t have to ask anyone else. Jon pitched great. We stunk.”

 

You want to trade that guy because of clubhouse issues?

[mvp 78]

Lackey is NOT untradable. FO would just have to eat 85% of the salary.

 

Why would anyone want Linares to get playing time? He's too old to be a prospect.

[Bellhorn04]

I guess I do not assume Pedroia is a problem or solution in the club house' date=' none of us really know. But it does seem there is a general '' me over the team mentality''. Trading a guy like Pedroia sends a message that nobody is bigger than the team.[/quote']

 

I agree that nobody is bigger than the team.

 

When Pedroia made the comments about 'that's not how we do things here', Cherington should have sat him down and talked to him and Pedroia should have apologized. Didn't happen.

 

But Pedroia plays hard and cares about winning and is also a damn good second baseman.

[wyo-sox]

I just need an explanation of how trading Pedroia' date=' literally one of the only guys on the entire team who gets fired up and pissed off when they lose, helps this team and this clubhouse?.[/quote']

 

I guess I would want an explanation on how having a guy that gets pissed off when they loose has helped the team?

 

I don't think anyone likes to loose.

[wyo-sox]

I agree that nobody is bigger than the team.

 

When Pedroia made the comments about 'that's not how we do things here', Cherington should have sat him down and talked to him and Pedroia should have apologized. Didn't happen.

 

But Pedroia plays hard and cares about winning and is also a damn good second baseman.

 

I agree 100%, and can you deny it has not helped this current make up of players win games? He's like having a high quality expensive spark plug in a blown up rusted motor.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I guess I would want an explanation on how having a guy that gets pissed off when they loose has helped the team?

 

I don't think anyone likes to loose.

 

Because he actually gets fired up and shows that he cares about winning baseball games. He's got an actual desire to win and a drive to succeed. He gets to the park before anyone else.

 

Not to mention he is one of the best 2B in all of baseball. He's the kind of player that GM's dream of building their team around. Not only because of his effort and his ability, but also because he's exactly the kind of player you want in the clubhouse.

 

How many times did Francona say "Pedroia kind of wills himself to come through big in those key situations". All the time. How many other people did Francona say that about? None. Pedroia is a different breed. It would be a monumental mistake to trade him.

[SemperFi Sox]

Ellsbury/Crawford. One will be gone this offseason. They need to unload Crawford in hopes for keeping Ellsbury, or trade Ellsbury so he doesn't walk for nothing.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Ellsbury/Crawford. One will be gone this offseason. They need to unload Crawford in hopes for keeping Ellsbury' date=' or trade Ellsbury so he doesn't walk for nothing.[/quote']

 

Ellsbury is a tough situation, no? 2 poor seasons sandwiching 1 elite season. What kind of player is he really going to be? That's a tough sell.

 

Cafardo reported the other day that Ellsbury wants to stay in Boston, and Red Sox people are thinking he might stay more and more each day.

[wyo-sox]

Because he actually gets fired up and shows that he cares about winning baseball games. He's got an actual desire to win and a drive to succeed. He gets to the park before anyone else.

 

Not to mention he is one of the best 2B in all of baseball. He's the kind of player that GM's dream of building their team around. Not only because of his effort and his ability, but also because he's exactly the kind of player you want in the clubhouse.

 

How many times did Francona say "Pedroia kind of wills himself to come through big in those key situations". All the time. How many other people did Francona say that about? None. Pedroia is a different breed. It would be a monumental mistake to trade him.

 

You have not showed how it has helped this make up of players win games. Facts kinda show the team is not currently winning with him. A great, passionate, gritty player with value...hell yes. Value to this team, don't see it. We are not arguing his passion. I'm looking at the team record and seeing what we are doing is not working, and we need major changes. How else do you make major changes to the team?

[kapsis21]

cannot believe its come down to thinking about trading Pedey, i for one am totally against that. he is the heart and core of Boston Redsox, you trade him and trust me i will loose all faith in the Redsox FO.

 

its like Yankees trading Jeter.. will not happen should not happen. Period.

 

trade the prima-donnas or eat their salary and DFA them. start something that jolts this team.

[a700hitter]

Ellsbury is a tough situation, no? 2 poor seasons sandwiching 1 elite season. What kind of player is he really going to be? That's a tough sell.

 

Cafardo reported the other day that Ellsbury wants to stay in Boston, and Red Sox people are thinking he might stay more and more each day.

He has not looked like the same player that he was in 2011. I would keep him for 1 more year of arbitration to get a better gauge on the real Ellsbury.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You have not showed how it has helped this make up of players win games. Facts kinda show the team is not currently winning with him. A great' date=' passionate, gritty player with value...hell yes. Value to this team, don't see it. We are not arguing his passion. I'm looking at the team record and seeing what we are doing is not working, and we need major changes. How else do you make major changes to the team?[/quote']

 

But what you're doing is blaming Pedroia entirely for the teams struggles. How can you justify that this season, 2011, and 2010 (especially 2010, when the team was 45-30 in games he played) is on him?!?

 

It just makes no sense. He's not going out there and throwing to a 4.88 ERA as a SP this year. He didn't go out and throw to a 5.84 ERA last September. In fact, last September in those last 11 games when the team needed someone to step up, all Pedroia did was hit .426 with a 1.066 OPS.

 

But somehow its HIS fault that the team is losing?? Yes, this team needs major changes. But that doesn't mean you just trade the best player on the the team who is a vocal leader in the clubhouse and puts the team on his back and carries them, and has done that historically, just to make a trade.

 

You need SP. It's Beckett, Lester, Lackey, etc fault that the Sox are where they are. You trade THOSE players. You don't trade your all star, MVP second baseman who hit nearly .500 during a massive collapse last year. The Red Sox lost last year in spite of him, not because of him.

[wyo-sox]

cannot believe its come down to thinking about trading Pedey, i for one am totally against that. he is the heart and core of Boston Redsox, you trade him and trust me i will loose all faith in the Redsox FO.

 

its like Yankees trading Jeter.. will not happen should not happen. Period.

 

trade the prima-donnas or eat their salary and DFA them. start something that jolts this team.

 

The heart and sole of a team that can't make the playoffs, and may very well finish under .500. Correct? I love the guy s a fan, but why can't we admit its not helping this team win. This team is obviously a mess. If you could find a better way to over haul things I'm all ears. And if we don't overhaul things in a major way can we agree we will have a crappy sub par team next year?

[kapsis21]

You have not showed how it has helped this make up of players win games. Facts kinda show the team is not currently winning with him. A great' date=' passionate, gritty player with value...hell yes. Value to this team, don't see it. We are not arguing his passion. I'm looking at the team record and seeing what we are doing is not working, and we need major changes. How else do you make major changes to the team?[/quote']

 

team record is not based on one guy alone. . Starting pitching has stunk from day 1... what do you expect. we cant even win games where we score 8 runs anymore cuz our pitcher has given up that many as well.

 

why didnt we think of getting Sheets, Bartolo Colon or even Kuroda is beyond me.. yet we kept Millwood last year in the farm system..

we got Aaron Cook who has done a real good job if you ask me.

Buch and Cook have been holding the fort, Doubront has been solid but walks too many..

 

get some youngsters up and let them have a go at it I say.

Tazawa needs to start so does Morales. Beckett needs to go on a DL stint for a month.

[Bellhorn04]

The heart and sole of a team that can't make the playoffs' date=' and may very well finish under .500. Correct? I love the guy s a fan, but why can't we admit its not helping this team win. This team is obviously a mess. If you could find a better way to over haul things I'm all ears. And if we don't overhaul things in a major way can we agree we will have a crappy sub par team next year?[/quote']

 

I'm sorry but your position just isn't logical. As Forsyth says, based on this logic we should also trade Buchholz, even though he is showing signs of emerging as a top-line starter, because he's not getting us into the playoffs this year.

[kapsis21]

The heart and sole of a team that can't make the playoffs' date=' and may very well finish under .500. Correct? I love the guy s a fan, but why can't we admit its not helping this team win. This team is obviously a mess. If you could find a better way to over haul things I'm all ears. And if we don't overhaul things in a major way can we agree we will have a crappy sub par team next year?[/quote']

 

like a700 said we should have looked for trading Salty at the trade deadline. he was value at that time for a pitcher.

Salty and Aviles were hot and could have gotten a decent pitcher from Pirates or the Nationals

they could have used some pop in their lineup..

 

 

but to answer your question just because pitching has stunk doesnt mean you trade the one guy that is trying to get the team revved up. that would be blasphemy.

if starting pitchers start to get their groove we can be a lot more consistent and that is not happening.

 

Aaron Cook gave up 1 run against Tex. i dont remember last time Beckett or Lester did that.

[a700hitter]

1. When (it's not even an if) we trade Beckett, we are going to get a B level prospect and eat money. That's just the way it is. We're trading him off a putrid season filled with DL stints. We aren't going to get a MLB caliber player, much less someone who can help this team in 2013.

Top pitchers change uniforms every off season. It happened last off season. Cherries missed the boat big time on Gio Gonzalez. I don't want to hear that it would have cost us WMB. The Nats didn't give up anyone of that caliber. It's Cherries job to get these deals done. I am sick of people making excuses for him. The Nats already had Strasburg (we don't have anyone close to that) and they added and built one of the strongest staffs in baseball getting Gio and Jackson.

 

I guarantee you that top pitchers will swap laundry this off season through free agency and trades. It's Benny's job to get one of them.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The heart and sole of a team that can't make the playoffs' date=' and may very well finish under .500. Correct? I love the guy s a fan, but why can't we admit its not helping this team win. This team is obviously a mess. If you could find a better way to over haul things I'm all ears. And if we don't overhaul things in a major way can we agree we will have a crappy sub par team next year?[/quote']

 

How does trading Pedroia help next season, if that's what we're concerned about?

 

You want Ciriaco and Iglesias in the middle infield positions? Or Spears and Ciriaco? Or Spears and Iglesias??

 

Trading Pedroia makes less than zero sense. The team is losing in spite of him, not because of him. He's one of the very few positives on this team.

 

This team is losing because Ellsbury has a .310 OBP, Crawford has a .300 OBP, Aviles and Salty are both under .300 OBP's. That's 1/2 of your lineup who has an OBP of .310 or lower.

 

This team is losing because you've got a SP ERA of 4.88. The Sox have won 1 game started by Lester since June 28th. The Sox are 15-27 in games started by Lester and Beckett this year. They've got a rookie running out of gas as their #4 man and a complete hack of a pitcher in their #5 slot.

 

They lost last year because Lester had a 5.40 ERA in September. Because Beckett had a 5.48 ERA in September. Because Bard had 3 blown saves and a 10.64 ERA in September.

 

They didn't lose last year because of Pedroia's .300 average, 20/20 campaign. They didn't lose because Pedroia hit over .400 in the final 10 games of the year when they needed him the most.

 

This team's losses are not on Pedroia. Not by any stretch of the imagination. And trading him, one of the few players who actually cares and goes out and performs at a high level every single night, and stands up to the media and takes accountability, just to prove a point to the other overpaid, underperforming sacks of s*** that you retain is not how you fix a team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Top pitchers change uniforms every off season. It happened last off season. Cherries missed the boat big time on Gio Gonzalez. I don't want to hear that it would have cost us WMB. The Nats didn't give up anyone of that caliber. It's Cherries job to get these deals done. I am sick of people making excuses for him. The Nats already had Strasburg (we don't have anyone close to that) and they added and built one of the strongest staffs in baseball getting Gio and Jackson.

 

I guarantee you that top pitchers will swap laundry this off season through free agency and trades. It's Benny's job to get one of them.

 

Huh?!?

 

The Nat's gave up three pitching prospects, Brad Peacock (#36 prospect by BA), A.J. Cole (#57 Prospect by BA), and Tommy Milone, plus catching prospect Derek Norris (#38 prospect pre-2010, #72 pre-2011).

[wyo-sox]

But what you're doing is blaming Pedroia entirely for the teams struggles. How can you justify that this season, 2011, and 2010 (especially 2010, when the team was 45-30 in games he played) is on him?!?

 

It just makes no sense. He's not going out there and throwing to a 4.88 ERA as a SP this year. He didn't go out and throw to a 5.84 ERA last September. In fact, last September in those last 11 games when the team needed someone to step up, all Pedroia did was hit .426 with a 1.066 OPS.

 

But somehow its HIS fault that the team is losing?? Yes, this team needs major changes. But that doesn't mean you just trade the best player on the the team who is a vocal leader in the clubhouse and puts the team on his back and carries them, and has done that historically, just to make a trade.

 

You need SP. It's Beckett, Lester, Lackey, etc fault that the Sox are where they are. You trade THOSE players. You don't trade your all star, MVP second baseman who hit nearly .500 during a massive collapse last year. The Red Sox lost last year in spite of him, not because of him.

 

I guess I've misstated my position. I did not try to insinuate this team is Pedroia's fault. I do not think it is his fault. Overall I think trying to assign blame and fault when solving any problem is a waste. So while I don't think it's his fault.... I don't see any evidence that having him here is helping us win.

 

Without assigning any fault or blame and just trying to honestly access the situation I see a team that is a mess, has no clear direction, can't make the playoffs and is on track to finish under .500 and in sole ownership of the basement in their division.

 

So with that view of the team, and not assigning blame to Pedroia, I ask what is the best way to right the ship. I see a couple of choices...

 

1. Keep players that we have because they try hard, or put up great numbers. Get rid of sub par under achieving over paid pitchers and replace them with sub par prospects and old has been vetrans that work cheaper, although we eat the salaries of the original pitchers so we don't really save any money. Then we are left with the same offense that will hit 10 home runs in one game and not score any runs for the next three or four games. Essentially we have the same exact team by doing this, maybe worse because now you have bats that are mostly vetrans with a three year tradition of loosing and young unproven pitching. No clear direction.

 

2. Admit that some of the players are crap, some are great, some we love, some we hate, some are passionate and play hard, some are lazy dicks... and no matter whose fault it is, no matter how great any one player is.... IT AIN'T WORKING! So determine a clear direction (blow it up and rebuild). If that is the best course, who gives you the best return on getting players to rebuild. My guess is that Pedroia gets you the most on the trade market. If I am wrong and I get no great offers, I keep the guy.

 

I honestly don't mind if the Sox are a .500 team. As long as it was headed the right direction. If it was mostly young players growing as a team, having good attitudes and getting better month by month, honestly a .500 team like that would be fun for me to watch.

 

A .500 team with great players that I love like Pedroia frustrates me and I can see it headed in a direction that is not positive.

[wyo-sox]

I agree 100% it is primarily a pitching problem. But how do we fix that problem going forward for the short and long term? Just saying "get rid of Beckett" fixes nothing!

[a700hitter]

I really think the Sox are going to have to have the courage to make bold moves. There is simply to much broken here. While the starting pitching is the biggest problem, there is no solution in any of these guys in the rotation this year with the exception of Buch. Felix is not going to work his way up to 1,2 or 3 and neither is Frank. I expect Lackey to be as close to s*** as possible. Starting the season with that rotation as suggested is a fail before they ever play the first game in my opinion.

 

Now having not had the courage to do it this year, Sox Management may be willing to admit that 2013 will be a bridge year. Baring that, they will need something like what the Celtics did when they were unable to get Kevin Durant. They pulled off the KG, Ray Allan deal and ended up with a Championship out of that effort. The Sox need that sort of makeover only in MLB terms instead of NBA terms.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think anybody will take Lackey iortiz although I think Beckett can be moved as long as the Sox are willing to eat salary.

 

I might even look to change over the whole makeup of the team. Trade Pedey and put Ciriaco at 2nd with Iggy at SS and Aviles the utility infielder. Getting rid of Punto should be obvious. Getting rid of Pedey without bringing in a replacement would be gambling that Iggy hits well enough as the everyday SS but under the circumstances, that gamble may be a better gamble than betting that guys like Pedey will ever be what he once was for this team. I think it is at least an even bet that Pedey has f***ed himself royally as far as being a Red Sox for a career is concerned. He has unfortunately splattered himself with the same mud that stains so many of the vets on this team. Maybe Pedey as part of a multi player deal becomes a deal that gets you a real starting pitcher.

 

I give Ortiz a two year deal at this point and get it done. However I would sit Ortiz down and tell him that the trade off for a two year deal is that he shuts the f*** up about embarrassed and insulted etc etc. Shut up and play. You want to strut around Mr "this is my clubhouse". Then make it a clubhouse you should be proud of, not this mess. Shut up, play and actually walk the walk of a leader instead of just talking the talk.

 

Move Beckett. Move Lester if possible. The only way I keep Lester is if I make a move to a pitching coach that has a specific plan that I believe will work to bring Lester back. If not, move Lester. We are stuck with Lackey as nobody will take him until he pitches. So we would start the season with Buch, Lackey, Felix. Frank and probably Lester and Cook. Pen guys are Aceves, Miller, Atch, Bailey, Breslow, and either Bard or Tazawa and whoever the hell else they toss in there.

 

If I keep Pedey and put Ciriaco at SS with Aviles the utility guy, I would trade Ells. Get him outta' here while we can. The more I see of him, the more I am beginning to feel like he will never have a season like 2011 again, nor anything even close to it and the Sox simply have no room for him and Crawford on the same roster. The Sox also have no way out of the Crawford contract. Trade Ells. Bring somebody in here to play Center for a year or get by with some combination of OF including Kalish covering CF until Bradley gets here in 2014.

 

Trading Pedey probably makes more sense. I really am beginning to think Pedey has to go. I am concerned with Pedey aging early because of the way he plays and I think that combined with the mess he made for himself this year is enough to say done and dusted. We should be able to get something done in a trade that involves Pedey. So if I had a choice between the two possible "bold" moves I would trade Pedey instead of trading Ells. But I would do one or the other. If I keep Ells I just let him play out his contract, make him an offer of an extension to see if you can pry Ells away from what his agent wants him to do but I think it more likely that Ells leaves and Bradley becomes your CF in 2014.

 

I should point out that I do not think getting Aviles was a bad move. Getting him and making him your everyday SS was the bad move. Make Aviles your utility infielder and get rid of Punto. I keep AGons as I think we will conclude that AGons was simply yet another player that f***ed himself royally trying to play to that stupid Fenway LF wall. I am disappointed that it took AGons so long to work back from that but I really think that is what happened to Agons 2012. I keep Agons, Ross, Crawford, Ciriaco, WMB, Lavs with Salty the backup. I keep Kalish here next year although you have no idea how much I wish we had Reddick. Keep Nava as a back up.

 

I get rid of Shop, Punto, Pedey or Ells (preferably Pedey) and Sweeney. I get rid of Beckett and possibly Lester. I would dearly love to get rid of Lackey but nobody will take him.

I think you may be one step ahead of Cherries just by having a plan. I agree with you that this team can't be fixed by nibbling around the edges. It has so many problems that it is hard to figure out what should be addressed first. The starting pitching is the biggest and most obvious problem. It was obvious last off season, and he failed to address it in any meaningful way. If he was relying on there being a treasure trove of FA pitchers this off season, he was brutally mistaken. They all re-signed and extended with their current teams. I had predicted that would happen. Teams don't let young stud starters walk away if they have a profitable fanbase. Now, with only Greinke available, he'll have to get creative, and I have no confidence that he is capable of that.

 

People are going to criticize you for suggesting trading of Pedroia or Ellsbury. The decisions ahead for Cherries are not going to be easy. He may have to make a move like that to get top pitching in return. I never believe in trading an every day star for pitcher, but the question to be answered is whether Pedroia is truly still a star performer. When healthy and performing, he drives this team without a doubt. His heart is as big as they come, but are his skills slipping. This is what the FO gets paid to figure out. If Pedroia shits the bed next season hitting .250, people will moan about how unexpected it was for him to drop off like that. ********, they get paid to be experts at this stuff. They have all sorts of coaches and scouts. When a guy is starting to decline, they need to know it before the rest of the world. If they think he is still a star performer, keep him. If he is starting to slip, move him while he has value.

 

As for Ells, I'd keep him for another season to figure out what he is.

[wyo-sox]

And SoxfanForsyth... for the record I hope this is not being taken as an argument. I enjoy the discussion and different points of view. I've always enjoyed your perspective and manners in your posts on this board. We just don't see eye to eye on this one, but I understand your opinion and clearly don't see you position as "wrong" or way out there.