Your 2013 Red Sox

[SoxFanForsyth]

I agree 100% it is primarily a pitching problem. But how do we fix that problem going forward for the short and long term? Just saying "get rid of Beckett" fixes nothing!

 

I agree, but that doesn't mean you get rid of Pedroia.

 

Getting rid of Beckett should be the #1 plan.

 

#2 should be to get a pitching coach that actually knows what the hell he's doing, and didn't get fired from a team who couldn't touch .500.

 

#3 should be to explore trades for guys like Lester. Eat Lackey's contract and see if you can trade him. Get DiceK off the books. And rebuild your pitching rotation.

 

You don't need to rebuild the entire offense. You need to at least have 1 of your SS/C combo to be able to put up an OBP over .350. We have that. In Lavarnway. Then you can sacrifice your SS offense for elite, elite defense. That alone will help your pitching staff.

 

You don't need to blow up the whole team. You need to blow up the rotation outside of Buchholz and Doubront. The bullpen with Bard, Bailey, Wilson, Aceves, Miller, Breslow, and Tazawa is a very good bullpen.

 

The Sox still have a very good offense (much better with Lavarnway up), they have a very good bullpen.

 

Do we need to blow up the team? No, not the whole team. We need to isolate the problem. And I think it's pretty clear where it is. It's the SP. So do we blow up 3/5 of the SP? Absolutely.

 

Buchholz can lead this staff. I slot him as my #1. I slot Doubront as my #3/4. If we don't trade Lester, fine, I slot him as by #2. I still think Lester is a very good pitcher, just having a significantly down year.

 

I would rather see Tazawa in the #4/5 role than Lester or Beckett, myself. He's looked incredible out of the bullpen, and he's young enough that he can make the transition. His peripherals have always been good, especially his walks (career 2.6 BB/9 in the minors), and he strikes out plenty (10.7 K/9 in AAA, 9.0 in entire minor leagues).

 

So now you have a potential rotation of Buchholz - Lester - _______ - Doubront - Tazawa. Maybe you go out and trade for a guy like Matt Garza, or Justin Masterson and slot one of them in that 3 hole. Maybe you go out and sign a guy like Edwin Jackson, or Hiroki Kuroda and slot them in the #3 hole.

 

Is this an elite rotation? Not by any means. But is it a giant step in the right direction? 110% yes. Can that rotation lead this team, with that lineup and that bullpen to 89-92 wins? Yup. Would I put Clay Buchholz up against any team and any pitcher in the MLB in a 1 game play in game? With our lineup, and our bullpen, yup, I'd feel comfortable with that.

[SoxFanForsyth]

And SoxfanForsyth... for the record I hope this is not being taken as an argument. I enjoy the discussion and different points of view. I've always enjoyed your perspective and manners in your posts on this board. We just don't see eye to eye on this one' date=' but I understand your opinion and clearly don't see you position as "wrong" or way out there.[/quote']

 

Oh absolutely man. I enjoy a debate of opinion, and I'm definitely not angry or anything. Enjoy reading your posts, and this doesn't change that.

 

Just as a700, we get along great and I think we have agreed on maybe 1 thing the entire time I've been here

[Bellhorn04]

People are going to criticize you for suggesting trading of Pedroia or Ellsbury. The decisions ahead for Cherries are not going to be easy. He may have to make a move like that to get top pitching in return. I never believe in trading an every day star for pitcher, but the question to be answered is whether Pedroia is truly still a star performer. When healthy and performing, he drives this team without a doubt. His heart is as big as they come, but are his skills slipping. This is what the FO gets paid to figure out. If Pedroia shits the bed next season hitting .250, people will moan about how unexpected it was for him to drop off like that. ********, they get paid to be experts at this stuff. They have all sorts of coaches and scouts. When a guy is starting to decline, they need to know it before the rest of the world. If they think he is still a star performer, keep him. If he is starting to slip, move him while he has value.

 

Just a couple of quibbles on this. Even if Pedroia does only hit .250 next year it doesn't necessarily mean they missed an opportunity to move him while he was declining. For one thing, he would still be a well-above-average second baseman, when you factor in his defence.

 

Also one .250 season wouldn't necessarily mean he was cooked. It could just be an off-season. Ortiz looked to have bottomed out in 2009 hitting .238. This year he's hitting .316.

[wyo-sox]

So I think we may be on the same page more than we realize. We both see starting pitching as the primary hole to fill. I just don't see how you fill that hole without moving a very valuable player. Getting rid of Lackey or Beckett will not save the team a dime, as we will have to eat the salary. And nobody is going to give us anything of value in a trade... but we all know it has to be done.

 

So we do that, get ride of one to three of our pitchers... how do we go about getting a Garza or anyone of value knowing the luxury tax is a painful reality for those with the check books? I just don't see adding any valuable pitchers, or prospects, without offering something of value. Trust me, I'd rather keep Pedroia... but we just seem so far off from being even a decent team I don't see value to him on this current team moving forward, even though I think he's a very valuable player.... if that makes any sense.

[wyo-sox]

Tell you what, my plane lands in Boston on 8/20/12. Set up a meeting with Cherrington and we'll both pitch our ideas... then punch him in the forehead!

[SoxFanForsyth]

Tell you what' date=' my plane lands in Boston on 8/20/12. Set up a meeting with Cherrington and we'll both pitch our ideas... then punch him in the forehead![/quote']

 

Haha deal. Enjoy your trip. Sorry they're not playing well.

[a700hitter]

Just a couple of quibbles on this. Even if Pedroia does only hit .250 next year it doesn't necessarily mean they missed an opportunity to move him while he was declining. For one thing, he would still be a well-above-average second baseman, when you factor in his defence.

 

Also one .250 season wouldn't necessarily mean he was cooked. It could just be an off-season. Ortiz looked to have bottomed out in 2009 hitting .238. This year he's hitting .316.

The difference is that Ortiz really improved over the second half of 2009 and was producing big power numbers. He had the most home runs in the league from June 1st to the end of the year. He had a brutal April and May. He was coming off an injury and he demonstrated big progress after May. If you remember that there were plenty of people that thought he was cooked. I remember seeing him play that season at Fenway right before he came out of his funk, and I remember reporting here that he still seemed to have a very quick bat. Maybe the Sox saw the same thing and that is why they stuck with him. Kudos to them for getting it right. They need to get it right with Pedroia. He is not have a Pedrioa like season. They need to figure out if this downturn was solely attributable to the injuries or a decline in skill. It's not an easy call, but they are supposed to be the experts.

[a700hitter]

Oh absolutely man. I enjoy a debate of opinion, and I'm definitely not angry or anything. Enjoy reading your posts, and this doesn't change that.

 

Just as a700, we get along great and I think we have agreed on maybe 1 thing the entire time I've been here

We agree alot more than we disagree. We just spend a disproportionate amount of time debating our disagreements.

 

I think people don't realize sometimes that there is a lot more that the board agrees about than we disagree about. We just get caught up in the disagreements and lose sight of that fact.

[SemperFi Sox]

Ellsbury is a tough situation, no? 2 poor seasons sandwiching 1 elite season. What kind of player is he really going to be? That's a tough sell.

 

Cafardo reported the other day that Ellsbury wants to stay in Boston, and Red Sox people are thinking he might stay more and more each day.

 

Ellsbury might say that, what is he supposed to say? I've heard he wants out due to how he was treated during the 2010 season with his injuries. He's going for a huge pay day. If he wanted to stay so bad he'd be open to an extension which he currently isn't.

[jung]

They can't and won't unload Crawford. They are stuck with that contract. Ells is not going to settle for what the Sox will offer him to stay in Boston. So Cafardo can put that pipe dream where it belongs. The likely best move with Ells is to try to extend him and when that fails just let him go. Maybe he will recognize that he is far from the 2011 player that he was and will take reasonable money to stay. But I would not bank on it. It will take big money to keep him and the Sox will simply not risk $21M per + another $15-$18M per for two f***ing outfielders on a team that can not use all that speed effectively. Wake up!

 

You trade Pedey cause he is the only guy the Sox have that can be a center piece to a trade that brings you pitching and I simply do not care what Pedey does. Without pitching this team goes nowhere and nobody else but Pedey in the middle of a multiplayer package will get you pitching. There is no other player that the Sox could put in the middle of a deal that would do that. The Sox are in no position to unload tons of prospects to get a pitcher in here. Everybody that would be demanded would be somebody destined to start for this team in the near term.

 

Yes you also get the added benefit of sending a message to the stiffs left on this team that anybody can be traded. So in a sense you are also taking advantage of the fact that Pedey opened his mouth at the wrong time and stuck his foot in it. Again I don't give a s*** what he said later....you cannot contest that the team never once lined up behind V and that early comment by Pedey was likely the beginning of the snowball rolling downhill as far as V having any management control over this team. It has been run by the players and run into the ground.

 

I don't give a s*** about what either guy V or Pedey has said since then. If I moved Pedey I would still leave the impression in the minds of the players that I did not like what Pedey said and if I hear any more ******** out of any one of them, I might just move them also.

 

These players will at a moments notice harp away right in the middle of the season in an effort to feather their own nest regardless of what it does to the team and Pedey lines up behind the player or players when that happens. So I have no problem using the idea of trading Pedey as a means of sending a message to the rest of these *******s. I have no forgiveness left for any of them....I have no empathy left for any of them and if I was in management I would do everything in my power including use them individually or as a group in whatever manner I see fit as a means of improving this team. It is a bad team WITH Pedey. He gives me the opportunity to improve my pitching and send a message.

[jung]

So now you have a potential rotation of Buchholz - Lester - _______ - Doubront - Tazawa. Maybe you go out and trade for a guy like Matt Garza, or Justin Masterson and slot one of them in that 3 hole. Maybe you go out and sign a guy like Edwin Jackson, or Hiroki Kuroda and slot them in the #3 hole.

 

Is this an elite rotation? Not by any means. But is it a giant step in the right direction? 110% yes. Can that rotation lead this team, with that lineup and that bullpen to 89-92 wins? Yup. Would I put Clay Buchholz up against any team and any pitcher in the MLB in a 1 game play in game? With our lineup, and our bullpen, yup, I'd feel comfortable with that.

 

So after having seen two years of what happens when your rotation does not have a legitimate 1 you want to build another rotation without a legitimate 1. You are simply moving the problem 1 year farther out and dooming this team to another year of "oh all they have to do is go 6 out of the next 10" which turns into "all they have to do is go 7 for the next 10" which inevitably turns into "all the have to do is win 15 out of the next 15...easy right".

[SCM33]

You always say this... but the discussion on Beckett was 50/50. I've been saying to trade the bum since 2008' date=' and there are plenty who agreed with me.[/quote']

 

Ive never been 50/50 with Beckett. I loathe him and pretty much always have.

[SoxFanForsyth]

So after having seen two years of what happens when your rotation does not have a legitimate 1 you want to build another rotation without a legitimate 1. You are simply moving the problem 1 year farther out and dooming this team to another year of "oh all they have to do is go 6 out of the next 10" which turns into "all they have to do is go 7 for the next 10" which inevitably turns into "all the have to do is win 15 out of the next 15...easy right".

 

No. That's not what I'm doing at all.

 

I'm just not going to overreact and dump my best player in Pedroia, one of the only guys on the team who actually cares and goes out and gives everything he's got on a daily basis, because I want to set an example for all the other pieces of s*** on this team. That's one of the most counterproductive things I can even think of doing.

 

Again. You want to change the culture? Then why the hell do you trade Pedroia? Because he said 1 thing because he was sticking up for his teammates? Again. This is an absolutely classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. You're getting rid of the teams best player to spite the team and try to make it better. It does NOT add up.

 

The problem is with the starting pitching. Yes. I think Buchholz is an ace. Yes, it sucks that it took him a bit to shake off the rust from his back injury. But once he got back into his comfort zone, what has he done?

 

90 Innings, 13 starts, 2.80 ERA. He's averaging 7 IP per start. And in his last 10 starts, he's averaging 7.1 IP per start with a 2.21 ERA. He's the guy who can lead the staff.

 

It's absolutely ridiculous to say you want to trade Pedroia as a lesson, and then go into next season with Iglesias and Ciriaco as your middle infielders, then complain about how next season we wouldn't have a chance if we didn't trade Pedroia for an ace.

 

I mean honestly....

[SoxFanForsyth]

So after having seen two years of what happens when your rotation does not have a legitimate 1 you want to build another rotation without a legitimate 1. You are simply moving the problem 1 year farther out and dooming this team to another year of "oh all they have to do is go 6 out of the next 10" which turns into "all they have to do is go 7 for the next 10" which inevitably turns into "all the have to do is win 15 out of the next 15...easy right".

 

And by the way, I'm not moving the problem out 1 year. I'm taking steps toward fixing the problem.

 

1. Lester isn't nearly as bad as he's been this year. He's still a very, very good pitcher. He's having an awful season which has been destructed by a high BABIP and a low strand rate. If you don't think he's going to bounce back, then I just don't know what to tell you. You need to look at more detailed stats than just ERA.

 

2. I said to trade Beckett, trade Lackey, go with a rotation of Buch - Lester - Garza/Masterson - Doubront - Tazawa. With a bullpen of Bailey/Bard/Aceves/Wilson/Breslow/Miller/Atchison, a defense headlined by Pedroia and Iglesias up the middle, and an offense full of guys who have high OBP's like Gonzalez, Pedroia, Lavarnway, Ellsbury, and Ortiz, this team will get back to what made them great over the past few years.

 

You have to be realistic about this team. Blowing up the offense to spite the pitching is how you turn the 2013 Red Sox into the 1993-2011 Pirates.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Ya know what, I'm not done because this is ********.

 

Jung. You want to trade Pedroia because of 1 thing that he said because he was sticking up for his teammate, but THEN, you want to turn around and give Ortiz his 2 year deal??

 

Ortiz had been bitching about his contract for how long now? And you're going to REWARD that bitching about his INDIVIDUAL contract, but you're going to TRADE Pedroia for sticking up for his TEAM!?!?

 

Come on man. How about some f***ing consistency. Ortiz broke into a f***ing presser about ONE f***ING RBI!!!!!! ONE!!!!!! And you want to change the clubhouse culture by trading Pedroia, but then you turn around and reward Ortiz with a 2 year deal?!? He bitches and bitches and bitches and then you say "Ok David. Here's your deal". But you want to run Pedroia out of town because you don't want the players to think they are bigger than the team?!?!

 

Christ. The hypocrisy is f***ing ridiculous.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Trade Pedey lol, s*** no Red Sox fan should say.

[jung]

When they play this badly....anybody should be considered as trade bait if it results in improvement. Unless and until they resolve this disaster of s rotation, any everyday player should be vulnerable to trade. Unfortunately, nobody the Sox have whose absence could be mitigated, works for bringing the Sox a real deal pitcher than Pedey. Pedey is the only guy that the Sox could built a trade package around that could make that work. In addition, Pedey may not be able to be the player that he once was for this team. While Pedey's defense at 2nd is excellent, excellence at 2nd is not the same thing as excellence at SS. If Pedey packaged the right way can bring me a legitimate 1 for the rotation, I trade Pedey in a heartbeat....as long as I can trade him out of the AL East and maybe trade hi out of the AL entirely.

[cbbosox]

Pedroia ,Ellsbury,Lester and Barnes for King Felix and Ackley-How about it?

[SoxFanForsyth]

When they play this badly....anybody should be considered as trade bait if it results in improvement. Unless and until they resolve this disaster of s rotation' date=' any everyday player should be vulnerable to trade. Unfortunately, nobody the Sox have whose absence could be mitigated, works for bringing the Sox a real deal pitcher than Pedey. Pedey is the only guy that the Sox could built a trade package around that could make that work. In addition, Pedey may not be able to be the player that he once was for this team. While Pedey's defense at 2nd is excellent, excellence at 2nd is not the same thing as excellence at SS. If Pedey packaged the right way can bring me a legitimate 1 for the rotation, I trade Pedey in a heartbeat....as long as I can trade him out of the AL East and maybe trade hi out of the AL entirely.[/quote']

 

You have been harping and harping and harping on how trading Pedroia is a clubhouse/culture change. That's what this team needs.

 

Pedoria is one of the FEW in the clubhouse that is actually good. He cares 100X more about winning baseball games than his individual stats or his individual contract. He never talks about either of them unless he's sticking up for one of his teammates.

 

Ortiz, on the other hand, has had multiple run ins with the media about his contract and about his individual stats.

 

So you want to extend Ortiz and trade Pedroia to enhance the clubhouse atmosphere. Again. It makes zero sense. Pedroia should NOT be traded under any circumstances. Especially not as a change in culture.

[jung]

You are not reading the posts....that is all I am going to say about it...you are not reading the posts.

 

I will add one thing that should help. If I am trading Pedey off the team, why would I then consider Pedey as it relates to the culture of the team? I only have to worry about the players that are left. Trading Pedey gets me pitching and very likely does help me with the players that are left, at least those that think they own the damned team. If I am unable to get pitching for trading Pedey then I don't trade him. However trading him does in my view help me with the players that are left in a way that Beckett does not. Getting rid of Beckett only helps me in that I no longer have him f***ing up my rotation.

 

As for Ortiz, I trade a two year contract in his case for his commitment to actually be a team leader and talk the talk as opposed to just walk the walk. Shut up and play David. However the real reason I keep Ortiz is because I can't mitigate losing Ortiz. I need his bat for one thing and I cannot conceive of a means of trading Ortiz as the centerpiece of a trade that brings me pitching. I can do that with Pedey. I can't do it with anybody else.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Yeah he is, you want to keep Ortiz and get rid of Pedroia which makes absolutely NO SENSE.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You are not reading the posts....that is all I am going to say about it...you are not reading the posts.

 

I really think the Sox are going to have to have the courage to make bold moves. There is simply to much broken here. While the starting pitching is the biggest problem, there is no solution in any of these guys in the rotation this year with the exception of Buch. Felix is not going to work his way up to 1,2 or 3 and neither is Frank. I expect Lackey to be as close to s*** as possible. Starting the season with that rotation as suggested is a fail before they ever play the first game in my opinion.

 

Now having not had the courage to do it this year, Sox Management may be willing to admit that 2013 will be a bridge year. Baring that, they will need something like what the Celtics did when they were unable to get Kevin Durant. They pulled off the KG, Ray Allan deal and ended up with a Championship out of that effort. The Sox need that sort of makeover only in MLB terms instead of NBA terms.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think anybody will take Lackey iortiz although I think Beckett can be moved as long as the Sox are willing to eat salary.

 

I might even look to change over the whole makeup of the team. Trade Pedey and put Ciriaco at 2nd with Iggy at SS and Aviles the utility infielder. Getting rid of Punto should be obvious. Getting rid of Pedey without bringing in a replacement would be gambling that Iggy hits well enough as the everyday SS but under the circumstances, that gamble may be a better gamble than betting that guys like Pedey will ever be what he once was for this team. I think it is at least an even bet that Pedey has f***ed himself royally as far as being a Red Sox for a career is concerned. He has unfortunately splattered himself with the same mud that stains so many of the vets on this team. Maybe Pedey as part of a multi player deal becomes a deal that gets you a real starting pitcher.

 

I give Ortiz a two year deal at this point and get it done. However I would sit Ortiz down and tell him that the trade off for a two year deal is that he shuts the f*** up about embarrassed and insulted etc etc. Shut up and play. You want to strut around Mr "this is my clubhouse". Then make it a clubhouse you should be proud of, not this mess. Shut up, play and actually walk the walk of a leader instead of just talking the talk.

 

Move Beckett. Move Lester if possible. The only way I keep Lester is if I make a move to a pitching coach that has a specific plan that I believe will work to bring Lester back. If not, move Lester. We are stuck with Lackey as nobody will take him until he pitches. So we would start the season with Buch, Lackey, Felix. Frank and probably Lester and Cook. Pen guys are Aceves, Miller, Atch, Bailey, Breslow, and either Bard or Tazawa and whoever the hell else they toss in there.

 

If I keep Pedey and put Ciriaco at SS with Aviles the utility guy, I would trade Ells. Get him outta' here while we can. The more I see of him, the more I am beginning to feel like he will never have a season like 2011 again, nor anything even close to it and the Sox simply have no room for him and Crawford on the same roster. The Sox also have no way out of the Crawford contract. Trade Ells. Bring somebody in here to play Center for a year or get by with some combination of OF including Kalish covering CF until Bradley gets here in 2014.

 

Trading Pedey probably makes more sense. I really am beginning to think Pedey has to go. I am concerned with Pedey aging early because of the way he plays and I think that combined with the mess he made for himself this year is enough to say done and dusted. We should be able to get something done in a trade that involves Pedey. So if I had a choice between the two possible "bold" moves I would trade Pedey instead of trading Ells. But I would do one or the other. If I keep Ells I just let him play out his contract, make him an offer of an extension to see if you can pry Ells away from what his agent wants him to do but I think it more likely that Ells leaves and Bradley becomes your CF in 2014.

 

I should point out that I do not think getting Aviles was a bad move. Getting him and making him your everyday SS was the bad move. Make Aviles your utility infielder and get rid of Punto. I keep AGons as I think we will conclude that AGons was simply yet another player that f***ed himself royally trying to play to that stupid Fenway LF wall. I am disappointed that it took AGons so long to work back from that but I really think that is what happened to Agons 2012. I keep Agons, Ross, Crawford, Ciriaco, WMB, Lavs with Salty the backup. I keep Kalish here next year although you have no idea how much I wish we had Reddick. Keep Nava as a back up.

 

I get rid of Shop, Punto, Pedey or Ells (preferably Pedey) and Sweeney. I get rid of Beckett and possibly Lester. I would dearly love to get rid of Lackey but nobody will take him.

 

I repeat' date='[/u'] you have to change the culture of this team. That much should be obvious by now. Lackey is not going anywhere and Beckett is not enough.

 

I think Pedey would actually be a pretty attractive player out on the trade market because his salary is really quite manageable. That is the key. The team actually does get value out of a player that is an established star.

 

I just don't care about the individual numbers anymore when you stack them up against the mess that is the Boston Red Sox. People throw in the towel on any manager regaining some control of this team and frankly you cannot change out the whole team in order to regain control but you cannot throw in the towel on regaining control either. Come back with that many of the same players that are the accepted leaders of this team and you are just institutionalizing failure and a team controlled by the players....doomed!

 

However, if you get rid of a few of the guys that are associated with various aspects of this mess and draw the others in line....then you might have something. Get Beckett out of here...who gives a s*** what we get for him. Move Pedey and try to put together a deal around Pedey that actually does get you something back. Give Ortiz his deal but gain concessions from Ortiz as part of the process and deal with Lackey at a point in time when you have some leverage over him...when he can play again. Denying him playing time when he can play again is that point in time. Since he likely to be pure s*** on a stick....who cares if we sit him.....that is the problem...anybody in an MLB uniform pitching as a 3,4 or 5 can pitch as well as these guys can pitch.

 

You have to go after this at the core of the team. Anything else is playing around at the edges and you will doom yourself to another season of wondering why these guys don't play to their career stats and just start that whole process of frustration all over again. People kept pushing this career numbers crap all the way up to where we are today....below 500 as a team and likely to be below 500 as a team when the season ends.

 

This is a bad team and you cannot lay that at the foot of Mike Aviles. He is footnote.

 

I want a team that just plays, smiles and keeps its f***ing mouth shut. I don't care what V said as he turned into a lap dog to get through the season and I don't care what Pedey said to try to deflect criticism from what ultimately and finally turned out to be a comment that was roundly accepted as an early turning point in the season. Nothing looked like a coordinated "managed" effort at any time in this season. Say what want about V. He is at least enough of a manager to have made that effort if he had a team that would follow him even one step of the way.

 

As for Pedey and his value. Go ahead and wait for him to have another season like this one and then tell me what his trade value is. When does the way Pedey plays finally catch up to him. This is exactly how the Sox get into these never ending screwed up situations with the player sitting there completely valueless. Oh wait I forgot...he HAS to come back to his career numbers. Frankly I don't care if he does. Let some other team take that risk.

 

If they cannot eke value in return out of a multiplayer deal with Pedey at its core I would be very surprised. If they tried and could not then I likely would not pull the trigger. But I would make every effort to cobble together said deal.

 

At the end of the day they need pitching and using a player like Pedey at the core of a trade is likely the only way they are going to get it. They cannot come back with a rotation of Lester, Lackey, Buch, Felix, Frank and Cook. That bunch will need a 1 to neutralize Lackey among other things because Lackey will not be tradable. Lester will surely benefit from having a true 1 for the rotation as well. I do think they end up keeping Lester because they will have to get a new pitching coach anyway and I would be shocked if they did not make the recovery of Lester a priority for whoever comes in here. Regardless of what else they do, they will end up in yet another season of starters making early exits and the pen tapping out of the season when there is still season left to play if they go into next season with the guys identified above.

 

Seems like I read everything.

[kapsis21]

lets calm it down a bit guys. Pedey is going nowhere.

[wyo-sox]

To jungs defense, Trading Pedroia could change the culture.... not because Pedroia is the problem directly, but because of the message it sends.

 

I guess the common thread jung and I share is that we know we need better pitching, and don't see any other realistic ways of getting it. I have not seen any suggestions for other ways to improve the pitching.

 

I guess I would ask this.... since most of us love Pedroia as a player.. is he worth keeping around to watch him play hard, be competitive, hopefully return to an offensive threat if it means watching him do it on a loosing crappy team? To me it is not. The team needs change, nobody debates that. The team more specifically needs drastic pitching change, nobody debates that.....and Pedroia offers the best chance at getting pitching help. Everyone wants to point out Dustin pays hard as an argument that he should not be traded... but nobody is offering any realistic options to make serious changes to the pitching.

[jung]

I will add one thing that should help. If I am trading Pedey off the team, why would I then consider Pedey as it relates to the culture of the team? I only have to worry about the players that are left. Trading Pedey gets me pitching and very likely does help me with the players that are left, at least those that think they own the damned team. If I am unable to get pitching for trading Pedey then I don't trade him. However trading him does in my view help me with the players that are left in a way that Beckett does not. Getting rid of Beckett only helps me in that I no longer have him f***ing up my rotation.

 

As for Ortiz, I trade a two year contract in his case for his commitment to actually be a team leader and talk the talk as opposed to just walk the walk. Shut up and play David. However the real reason I keep Ortiz is because I can't mitigate losing Ortiz. I need his bat for one thing and I cannot conceive of a means of trading Ortiz as the centerpiece of a trade that brings me pitching. I can do that with Pedey. I can't do it with anybody else.

 

As for Pedey and his value. Go ahead and wait for him to have another season like this one and then tell me what his trade value is. When does the way Pedey plays finally catch up to him. This is exactly how the Sox get into these never ending screwed up situations with the player sitting there completely valueless. Oh wait I forgot...he HAS to come back to his career numbers. Frankly I don't care if he does. Let some other team take that risk.

 

If they cannot eke value in return out of a multiplayer deal with Pedey at its core I would be very surprised. If they tried and could not then I likely would not pull the trigger. But I would make every effort to cobble together said deal.

 

At the end of the day they need pitching and using a player like Pedey at the core of a trade is likely the only way they are going to get it. They cannot come back with a rotation of Lester, Lackey, Buch, Felix, Frank and Cook. That bunch will need a 1 to neutralize Lackey among other things because Lackey will not be tradable. Lester will surely benefit from having a true 1 for the rotation as well. I do think they end up keeping Lester because they will have to get a new pitching coach anyway and I would be shocked if they did not make the recovery of Lester a priority for whoever comes in here. Regardless of what else they do, they will end up in yet another season of starters making early exits and the pen tapping out of the season when there is still season left to play if they go into next season with the guys identified above.

 

Pedey has f***ed himself royally as far as being a Red Sox for a career is concerned. He has unfortunately splattered himself with the same mud that stains so many of the vets on this team. Maybe Pedey as part of a multi player deal becomes a deal that gets you a real starting pitcher.

 

That is right...I absolutely posted that. I am willing to use any thing at my disposal to help me with the players that are left once I trade Pedey. If the players want to think my main motivation for trading him is because of what he said at the start of the season....I am fine with that. If they want to think I traded him to get pitching....I am fine with that. I don't owe them an answer. If however I simply wanted him off the team for what he said at the start of the season, then I would trade him regardless of what I got back. I only trade Pedey if as part of a multiplayer package he brings me pitching. You can selectively read the posts all you want. You are either not getting it or don't want to.

[SoxFanForsyth]

To jungs defense' date=' Trading Pedroia could change the culture.... not because Pedroia is the problem directly, but because of the message it sends. [/b']

 

I guess the common thread jung and I share is that we know we need better pitching, and don't see any other realistic ways of getting it. I have not seen any suggestions for other ways to improve the pitching.

 

I guess I would ask this.... since most of us love Pedroia as a player.. is he worth keeping around to watch him play hard, be competitive, hopefully return to an offensive threat if it means watching him do it on a loosing crappy team? To me it is not. The team needs change, nobody debates that. The team more specifically needs drastic pitching change, nobody debates that.....and Pedroia offers the best chance at getting pitching help. Everyone wants to point out Dustin pays hard as an argument that he should not be traded... but nobody is offering any realistic options to make serious changes to the pitching.

 

Which, to me, is a terrible, terrible, horrifying way to justify trading your best player.

 

You don't trade a clubhouse positive to send a message to the clubhouse negatives. It doesn't work that way. If the negatives in the clubhouse cared at all, they would have already changed after the past 1.5 years. Sending Pedroia out and keeping the negatives is the exact opposite of what we need to do.

 

Do we need pitching help? Absolutely. But Pedroia will not (and should not) be dealt to acquire it. If you are dead set on going after a SP via trade, you've got a few pieces in the minors who are capable of bring you back a very good SP, but you have to be thinking Bogaerts, Barnes, Bradley, and Owens.

 

And on a side note, trading Pedroia for a proven ace makes no sense anyway. The only reason that a team would trade for Pedroia is if they are in it to win in the next 1-2 years. And if that's the case, they will be trying to trade minor league players. If not, they will be dealing for minor league pieces, not major league players. No team that trades for Pedroia will trade an ace because they're either in it to win, or in it to rebuild.

[SoxFanForsyth]

That is right...I absolutely posted that. I am willing to use any thing at my disposal to help me with the players that are left once I trade Pedey. If the players want to think my main motivation for trading him is because of what he said at the start of the season....I am fine with that. If they want to think I traded him to get pitching....I am fine with that. I don't owe them an answer. If however I simply wanted him off the team for what he said at the start of the season' date=' then I would trade him regardless of what I got back. I only trade Pedey if as part of a multiplayer package he brings me pitching. You can selectively read the posts all you want. You are either not getting it or don't want to.[/quote']

 

Ok, jung. Here's where we are getting confused.

 

1. You want to have a culture change. To me, by trading Pedroia, you're taking a huge positive out of the clubhouse. We've heard time and time again that Pedroia is the captain of this team. The fact that you trade Pedroia and then immediately follow by extending Ortiz just empowers the negativity in the clubhouse even more. Now, the perception is that you've traded the positive and extended a negative influence (individual > team theory).

 

2. You want to trade Pedroia for SP, but the trade is not at all a product on how Pedroia is in the clubhouse, it's two separate arguments, correct? The problem is that it's not two separate things. Trading Pedroia still removes a huge positive from the clubhouse. And you're left in even worse shape than you were in before you traded him, even if you get an ace (which you wouldn't because there are virtually no MLB player for MLB player blockbusters, teams are either competing or rebuilding), that still doesn't clean up the problem, which is the clubhouse culture, which we agree on.

 

Look, this team right now is 110% talented enough to win a world series. Lester and Buchholz have the talent carry a team through the post season. The offense is extremely potent. The problem is that you've got 25 guys pulling in about 20 different directions (I think Pedroia, Gonzo, Buchholz, WMB, and to a smaller extent Lester are all more concerned with winning than their contracts or stats). Outside of those 5, you've got a bunch of players who are in it for the money more than for the competition. That's the problem. And that's where you've got to change the clubhouse. Those are the guys who should be available to be dealt.

 

But with such a small number of players who are actually in this game for the competition and to win baseball games and a world series, you cannot deal from that bunch.

[jung]

Do we need pitching help? Absolutely. But Pedroia will not (and should not) be dealt to acquire it. If you are dead set on going after a SP via trade, you've got a few pieces in the minors who are capable of bring you back a very good SP, but you have to be thinking Bogaerts, Barnes, Bradley, and Owens.

 

Nope....already covered that in an earlier post. For a real shot at a legitimate 1 any team would rape the farm system of guys that are soon to be starting and staring for this team. This is exactly why we end up with guys past their prime preventing guys that should be here from coming up, ultimately trading away the guys that should be coming up BECAUSE they are blocked. It is a huge death spiral.

 

Bradley is a great example. We need Bradley because we will not be able to keep Ells and we can't move Crawford, at least not now. Bradley will be cost controlled just as Ells salary is going off the deep end into territory that forces me to pay upwards of $35M for two outfielders for crying out loud! I make Ells an offer but I am pretty sure he will not take it but I am damned if I am going to allow Ells to paint me into another corner. Bradley gives me the freedom to make Ells an extension offer that is acceptable to me and if he does not take it FINE....See ya.

 

Crawford was a huge mistake and will always be a huge mistake unless he turns into the second coming of Willy Mays. But I am stuck with him at least for now and he probably costs me Ells. The only reason that is fine or at least acceptable is because I have Bradley to mitigate losing Ells. Maybe Bradley is a bridge that gets me to a point in time when I can actually move Crawford. Without Bradley I am truly sunk.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Nope....already covered that in an earlier post. For a real shot at a legitimate 1 any team would rape the farm system of guys that are soon to be starting and staring for this team. This is exactly why we end up with guys past their prime preventing guys that should be here from coming up, ultimately trading away the guys that should be coming up BECAUSE they are blocked. It is a huge death spiral.

 

Bradley is a great example. We need Bradley because we will not be able to keep Ells and we can't move Crawford, at least not now. Bradley will be cost controlled just as Ells salary is going off the deep end into territory that forces me to pay upwards of $35M for two outfielders for crying out loud! I make Ells an offer but I am pretty sure he will not take it but I am damned if I am going to allow Ells to paint me into another corner. Bradley gives me the freedom to make Ells an extension offer that is acceptable to me and if he does not take it FINE....See ya.

 

Crawford was a huge mistake and will always be a huge mistake unless he turns into the second coming of Willy Mays. But I am stuck with him at least for now and he probably costs me Ells. The only reason that is fine or at least acceptable is because I have Bradley to mitigate losing Ells. Maybe Bradley is a bridge that gets me to a point in time when I can actually move Crawford. Without Bradley I am truly sunk.

 

First off, there's no way you should trade Pedroia.

 

Give me Pedroia with a rotation lead by Buchholz with Garza slotted in the 3 slot, and Pedroia in the lineup over a rotation lead by Felix (still not sure who you are wanting to deal for, the deal for Pedroia makes no sense for anyone IMO, but for arguments sake we will say him) but with Iglesias and Ciriaco starting in my lineup everyday.

[jung]

Look, this team right now is 110% talented enough to win a world series. Lester and Buchholz have the talent carry a team through the post season. The offense is extremely potent. The problem is that you've got 25 guys pulling in about 20 different directions (I think Pedroia, Gonzo, Buchholz, WMB, and to a smaller extent Lester are all more concerned with winning than their contracts or stats). Outside of those 5, you've got a bunch of players who are in it for the money more than for the competition. That's the problem. And that's where you've got to change the clubhouse. Those are the guys who should be available to be dealt.

 

Actually this is where we disagree. This is something like the "September was an anomaly" argument. I say something like because I don't have the right to try to do a vulcan mind meld and know for sure where this argument is coming from. However, they are absolutely not 110% of what they need to be to go all the way primarily because they do not have the starting pitching to do that. This is going to be two years running that they will have buried the pen. The pen already has the white flag of surrender up as we speak in early August for heavens sake. We need a legitimate Ace, a true 1 which may also help us bring back Lester along with a new pitching coach. A legit 1 with Buch, Felix, Frank and possibly a rejuvenated Lester and Lackey (God help me) might be enough starting pitching to get you there. Any combination of the guys they have now simply won't get it done nor will dumping another guy in the 3 hole.

 

As for Ortiz, I only give Ortiz his two year deal if he is fully committed to being the kind of leader that he says he is and that I need him to be. If not...he gets a one year deal and thats that. I might even be willing to go two years and a team option for a third if that gets me the guy I want Ortiz to be. That way I control a third year that I could give him if he is a good boy.

 

But there is no way that I can conceive of using Ortiz to get me a legit pitcher and I need his bat, the former being more of an issue than the latter. I can with Pedey and I just can't with anybody else other than buckets of guys like Bradley, Bradley being an excellent example for why I can't do that either.