Revisiting Scutaro-for-Mortensen

[Orange Juiced]

You guys have completely missed my point. I have said consistently that I like Breslow. Second' date=' I never said that Breslow wasn't an upgrade over Albers. I said that it didn't address the team's major need-- starting pitching. To those who say that getting a Breaslow allows us to put Morales in the rotation, I disagree. We'd already had him in the rotation. We didn't put him back in the pen because the pen was struggling. We put him back in the pen, because we already had 5 starters. Our 5 starters stink, and pitting Morales back in the rotation should help, bit we didn't need Breslow to make that move. We needed Cook to do his Home Run Derby routine 3 times in a row. He would have been replaced with Morales whether or not we got Breslow. Morales was already in house, and he will not be enough. Who takes Doubs spot when he hits his innings limit at the end of August? Do they go back to Cook? Dice K? Are they solutions? Is the solution that we blow out Doubs arm by throwing him 200 innings? Who steps in if Beckett lands on the DL or Lester continues to s*** all over himself? The problem is not getting Breslow. Do I have to type it all in caps. I have no problem upgrading a bullpen spot in a vacuum. The observation that I have made that it was a nothing Trade Deadline for the Sox is because it did not address the major need that this team has had since day 1m. We don't have enough good starting pitching. About that, I am completely right. If they don't get at least a wild card berth, the starting pitching will be the reason. Ther Sox should have won that game last night, but we sent an over the hill infwrior pitcher to the mound that had their big dogs licking their chops. It was a missed opportunity at home. Cook shouild not be in this rotation down the stretch. He should not even be on the roster.[/quote']

 

In post #49, you said, regarding the Breslow trade, "it was a nothing trade". Not just that the trade deadline was a "nothing trade deadline", but you said specifically of this one deal that it was a "nothing trade".

 

It wasn't a "nothing trade". It upgraded their bullpen. They got better. Breslow is better than Albers. Their pitching staff is improved as a result of this trade. And the Sox apparently want two lefties in their bullpen, so switching out a righty and adding another lefty gives them more flexibility to then move Morales to the rotation. You say they would have done that anyway....who knows. Now they can do it without worrying about only having one lefty in the pen.

 

Again, is it a major move? No, certainly not. But it improves the team, and that's what trades are supposed to do. So it wasn't a "nothing trade". It was a very helpful trade, even if it didn't bring in a big-time starting pitcher from outside the organization.

 

If you had said, "It probably will be a helpful move but I wanted them to go after someone like....(Grienke/Garza/whomever)", then I don't know that you'd get a whole lot of push-back.

[a700hitter]

In post #49, you said, regarding the Breslow trade, "it was a nothing trade". Not just that the trade deadline was a "nothing trade deadline", but you said specifically of this one deal that it was a "nothing trade".

 

It wasn't a "nothing trade". It upgraded their bullpen. They got better. Breslow is better than Albers. Their pitching staff is improved as a result of this trade. And the Sox apparently want two lefties in their bullpen, so switching out a righty and adding another lefty gives them more flexibility to then move Morales to the rotation. You say they would have done that anyway....who knows. Now they can do it without worrying about only having one lefty in the pen.

 

Again, is it a major move? No, certainly not. But it improves the team, and that's what trades are supposed to do. So it wasn't a "nothing trade". It was a very helpful trade, even if it didn't bring in a big-time starting pitcher from outside the organization.

 

If you had said, "It probably will be a helpful move but I wanted them to go after someone like....(Grienke/Garza/whomever)", then I don't know that you'd get a whole lot of push-back.

Don't play with my words to try to tell me what I meant. I just told you what I meant. Listen Newb, plenty of people come here and try to prove me wrong, because I call myself the King. None have taken me down a peg yet. Most have come to appreciate my point of view and we engage in good dialogue. ^ This last post of yours was argumentative nonsense. I told you what my position is. I stand by it, and most of all, I am right. The FO did not address the teams most pressing need-- starting pitching. Now, you strike me as the type of person who has to have the last word. Take it if you must. I think that have stated my opinion clearly. You are not going to change my mind. Breslow is not a starter. We needed a starter. They did not address the team's biggest need.

[User Name]

Them's fighting words.^

[a700hitter]

^ I am sure that this from UN added value to the discourse. Too bad that I did not take the time to read it.

[User Name]

It's UN?. Get it right.

[Orange Juiced]

Don't play with my words to try to tell me what I meant. I just told you what I meant. Listen Newb' date=' plenty of people come here and try to prove me wrong, because I call myself the King. None have taken me down a peg yet. Most have come to appreciate my point of view and we engage in good dialogue. ^ This last post of yours was argumentative nonsense. I told you what my position is. I stand by it, and most of all, I am right. The FO did not address the teams most pressing need-- starting pitching. Now, you strike me as the type of person who has to have the last word. Take it if you must. I think that have stated my opinion clearly. You are not going to change my mind. Breslow is not a starter. We needed a starter. They did not address the team's biggest need.[/quote']

 

No I certainly don't need to have the last word at all. I was just pointing out that the reason others have disagreed with you here are because you called *THIS TRADE* a "nothing trade". And it's been pointed out to you that, in fact, it was a helpful trade for the Red Sox. At least try to understand why people were/are disagreeing with your characterization of THIS TRADE.

 

Breslow is not a starter. We needed a starter. They did not address the team's biggest need.

 

Has anyone disagreed with you on this point?

 

(please try not to take the "king" thing so seriously......goodness)

 

 

Now, I think, after all is said and done, that we agree, if I understand your clarification right. This trade was a good one for the Red Sox, because they improved their pitching staff. It wasn't as big an improvement as they perhaps could have made (but who knows....), but nonetheless it was helpful.

 

You may in fact have the last word, your highness.

[a700hitter]

Has anyone disagreed with you on this point?

 

(please try not to take the "king" thing so seriously......goodness)

 

 

Now, I think, after all is said and done, that we agree, if I understand your clarification right. This trade was a good one for the Red Sox, because they improved their pitching staff. It wasn't as big an improvement as they perhaps could have made (but who knows....), but nonetheless it was helpful.

 

You may in fact have the last word, your highness.

The King thing has been a joke from the beginning, but the reaction to it by some people has provided me with amusement. Here is my characterization of the trading deadline activity by the Red Sox as succinctly as I can say it: They upgraded a bullpen piece, but the bullpen was not the major need or deficiency of this team. Nothing was done to address the lack of starting pitching. That has been and will continue to be the undoing of the 2012 Red Sox.

[Dojji]

My guess is that the Scutaro trade is kind of symbolic to some people of our front office being stingy and full of s*** this year.

 

I don't care. Frankly Scutaro wasn't very likely to earn his money this year anyhow.

 

It's the Lowrie trade that really hurts right now TBH. He's finally stabilized and come into his own and we could really use what he is.

[BornToRun]

I don't care. Frankly Scutaro wasn't very likely to earn his money this year anyhow.

 

It's the Lowrie trade that really hurts right now TBH. He's finally stabilized and come into his own and we could really use what he is.

 

Isn't he on the DL right now?

[Orange Juiced]

I don't care. Frankly Scutaro wasn't very likely to earn his money this year anyhow.

 

It's the Lowrie trade that really hurts right now TBH. He's finally stabilized and come into his own and we could really use what he is.

 

What hurts isn't losing Lowrie; it's having Punto here instead. Lowrie had never played in more than 88 games b/c of injuries. This year he has 80, surprisingly, but now he's hurt (not surprisingly). He's having a career year but don't forget, he was coming off an age-27 season where he put up a line of .252/.303/.382/.685 with an ops+ of just 85. Not exactly the next Ernie Banks.

 

Meanwhile, as our replacement SS, Ciriaco has more than filled in adequately for Lowrie. .342/.351/.438/.790, with an ops+ of 109.

 

The fact that Nick Punto was signed to a 2-year contract is just unbelievable. He really should probably not even be on the team. He is good defensively, but geez......

[a700hitter]

Isn't he on the DL right now?

We would have been better off if Melancon had been on the DL for the whole season. He hasn't helped at all. Lowrie has helped the otherwise pathetic Astros, and put up pretty good numbers.

[SoxFanForsyth]

With the amount of matchups that Valentine plays (and he does a fantastic job), the Sox need 2 LHP to come out of the bullpen. V needs the flexibility to be able to go after a Prince Fielder in the 7th inning without having to worry about "what if he comes up in the 8th or 9th with RISP?"

 

We didn't acquire a starting pitcher. We already had a starting pitcher. The problem was that he was sitting in our bullpen because the team needs 2 LHP.

 

Now Breslow to the bullpen, Morales to the rotation, and you've got a potentially very good starting pitcher in Morales.

 

I pray with everything I've got that Morales gets the start against the Rangers over Cook.

[a700hitter]

With the amount of matchups that Valentine plays (and he does a fantastic job), the Sox need 2 LHP to come out of the bullpen. V needs the flexibility to be able to go after a Prince Fielder in the 7th inning without having to worry about "what if he comes up in the 8th or 9th with RISP?"

 

We didn't acquire a starting pitcher. We already had a starting pitcher. The problem was that he was sitting in our bullpen because the team needs 2 LHP.

 

Now Breslow to the bullpen, Morales to the rotation, and you've got a potentially very good starting pitcher in Morales.

 

I pray with everything I've got that Morales gets the start against the Rangers over Cook.

They had no problem putting him in the rotation previously when guys were injured. The bullpen is not our problem. Plus Bobby V has to do so much matching up because our starters suck and can't go deep into games. It's all about the starting pitching. It wasn't addressed in the off season, and it still has not been addressed. It is the downfall of this team, no matter how you want to twist and turn the reasons for it. It still comes back to the starting pitching.

[SoxFanForsyth]

They had no problem putting him in the rotation previously when guys were injured. The bullpen is not our problem. Plus Bobby V has to do so much matching up because our starters suck and can't go deep into games. It's all about the starting pitching. It wasn't addressed in the off season' date=' and it still has not been addressed. It is the downfall of this team, no matter how you want to twist and turn the reasons for it. It still comes back to the starting pitching.[/quote']

 

Adding a starting pitcher in the offseason wouldn't have kept Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz from combining to form a 4.95 ERA.

 

You cannot put this season on the FO. You put this season on complete and utter underperformance by the top 3. Buchholz is turning it around nicely, but the damage has been done.

 

That the Red Sox are 15-24 (.384) in starts by Lester and Beckett is a much bigger problem than the starts given by Bard/DiceK/Cook, where the Red Sox have a record of 13-16 (.448). You hope that your #5 starter and below will give you a .500 record, but for the most part, they fall short. That slack is supposed to be picked up by the top 2. It hasn't.

 

So I don't see how a guy like Edwin Jackson or Kuroda would have turned this team around. Yes the SP sucks. But it's not because of a lack of moves by the FO. It's because of a lack of performance by Lester and Beckett, and to a smaller degree, Buchholz.

[a700hitter]

Adding a starting pitcher in the offseason wouldn't have kept Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz from combining to form a 4.95 ERA.

 

You cannot put this season on the FO. You put this season on complete and utter underperformance by the top 3. Buchholz is turning it around nicely, but the damage has been done.

 

That the Red Sox are 15-24 (.384) in starts by Lester and Beckett is a much bigger problem than the starts given by Bard/DiceK/Cook, where the Red Sox have a record of 13-16 (.448). You hope that your #5 starter and below will give you a .500 record, but for the most part, they fall short. That slack is supposed to be picked up by the top 2. It hasn't.

 

So I don't see how a guy like Edwin Jackson or Kuroda would have turned this team around. Yes the SP sucks. But it's not because of a lack of moves by the FO. It's because of a lack of performance by Lester and Beckett, and to a smaller degree, Buchholz.

I'm not going to go into the whole rehash. The team didn't have enough starting pitching coming out of the gate. They insisted that they had enough. They were very wrong. Under performance by the top 3 exacerbated the situation and the team basically collapsed out of the gate and it has been stumbling ever since. I did not expect the pitching to completely crumble like this, but I did expect for it to break down later in the season like it did last year. We added nothing to a staff that imploded last year. Two rookies on innings limits is a recipe for a late season collapse. One of them blew up spectacularly and they stuck with the guy until he helped bury the team in last place and maybe even wrecked his career. If you want to use the under performance of the big three as an excuse, waht is the excuse for not rebuilding the pitching during the season when their suckiness has become obvious? Yes, I blame the FO for this season. The flaw in this team was obvious to everyone. It was so obvious that they were asked about their pitching on a daily basis, and they had their talking points that they were happy with their starting pitching. They were either being disingenuous or stupid about the issue. Yes, I blame them, and I have heard and read every excuse by and for the FO. I don't need to hear them or read them anymore. They messed up. It is on them. They have rolled out a team that has been just awful, because it kicks you in the gut before you can even get comfortable in your seat. The unexpected under performance has made things far worse, but their rotation was obviously weak before the season started , and there were no viable contingency plans. Dice K, Cook, Ohlendorf etc were not viable contingency plans. You don't want to blame the FO. Fine. I blame them. We can agree to disagree.

[circus catch]

I think it has to be remembered that the long-term plan for 2012 included Dice-K and Lackey, and while we knew that neither would be available for this season, consistent league average starters just don't appear out of thin air. The Sox had Bard, Padilla, and Aceves all try out for the rotation. Clearly, Bard was not the correct choice, but that's a lot easier to say now. And having said all of that, I agree that the blame goes squarely on the front of the rotation. Doubront has been a pleasant surprise in the 4th spot, and lots of teams have questions in the 5 hole. But Lester, Buchholz, and especially Beckett all need to step up.

 

Just because you were a big deal at one time doesn't mean that you can throw s*** and not get called on it.

[Bellhorn04]

So I don't see how a guy like Edwin Jackson or Kuroda would have turned this team around. Yes the SP sucks. But it's not because of a lack of moves by the FO. It's because of a lack of performance by Lester and Beckett' date=' and to a smaller degree, Buchholz.[/quote']

 

Adding a Kuroda wouldn't have 'turned the team around', but it probably would have added 3-4 wins as of now. That could mean the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs.

[kapsis21]

Adding a Kuroda wouldn't have 'turned the team around'' date=' but it probably would have added 3-4 wins as of now. That could mean the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs.[/quote']

 

that would have meant Bard would have stayed in the bullpen and maybe just maybe saved from him being a complete loss that we have for him now.

[Dojji]

that would have meant Bard would have stayed in the bullpen and maybe just maybe saved from him being a complete loss that we have for him now.

 

... if it wasn't for Bard's utter September meltdown freakshow I might agree with that. I think they started him because they knew or suspected that he was damaged goods anyway

[a700hitter]

... if it wasn't for Bard's utter September meltdown freakshow I might agree with that. I think they started him because they knew or suspected that he was damaged goods anyway

If that is the case, then they should just cut him. If he can't start and he can't pitch in high leverage late inning situations, then he should just get released. I think the Red Sox believe that he can still be effective in late innings so they are trying to get him back on track. He wasn't really as bad as a meltdown freak show in September 2011. That's a bit of an exaggeration.

[kapsis21]

If that is the case' date=' then they should just cut him. If he can't start and he can't pitch in high leverage late inning situations, then he should just get released. I think the Red Sox believe that he can still be effective in late innings so they are trying to get him back on track. He wasn't really as bad as a meltdown freak show in September 2011. That's a bit of an exaggeration.[/quote']

 

i have to agree. he was lights out and hit a rough stretch.. possibly arm fatigue? but i dont think he was damaged goods last year