Revisiting Scutaro-for-Mortensen

[Orange Juiced]

Marco Scutaro was coming off a pretty solid season for Boston in 2011: .781 ops, 109 ops+, 2.6 WAR. So to save money (ostensibly), they trade him to Colorado for Clayton Mortensen. Um...who? Exactly. Well, here are this year's numbers:

 

Scutaro: .277/.330/.369/.699, 79 ops+, 0.1 WAR

 

Aviles, Scutaro's replacement: .252/.275/.395/.670, 76 ops+, 1.8 WAR

 

Thus, Aviles has been more valuable this year than Scutaro has been. Ok, so SS is fine. What about Mortensen?

 

Mortensen: 23.0 ip, 1.17 era, 0.87 whip, 6.7 k/9, 0.8 WAR

 

So Mortensen has been, despite limited innings, more valuable this year than Scutaro has been.

 

Who'd a thunk it?

[a700hitter]

Marco Scutaro was coming off a pretty solid season for Boston in 2011: .781 ops, 109 ops+, 2.6 WAR. So to save money (ostensibly), they trade him to Colorado for Clayton Mortensen. Um...who? Exactly. Well, here are this year's numbers:

 

Scutaro: .277/.330/.369/.699, 79 ops+, 0.1 WAR

 

Aviles, Scutaro's replacement: .252/.275/.395/.670, 76 ops+, 1.8 WAR

 

Thus, Aviles has been more valuable this year than Scutaro has been. Ok, so SS is fine. What about Mortensen?

 

Mortensen: 23.0 ip, 1.17 era, 0.87 whip, 6.7 k/9, 0.8 WAR

 

So Mortensen has been, despite limited innings, more valuable this year than Scutaro has been.

 

Who'd a thunk it?

Mortensen is a bush league bum who will not get enough major league time to qualify for the ML pension. Scutaro was not traded for Aviles. We already had Aviles. Scutaro is light years better than Punto. That's the other side of the story.

[Orange Juiced]

Mortensen is a bush league bum who will not get enough major league time to qualify for the ML pension. Scutaro was not traded for Aviles. We already had Aviles. Scutaro is light years better than Punto. That's the other side of the story.

 

Aviles slid into Scutaro's slot, that's why I'm comparing those two. And Mortensen may be a bum. But amazingly, he's been a more valuable major leaguer than Marco Scutaro has been this year. I would never have thought that was possible when the trade was made, but there it is.

[User Name]

Aviles slid into Scutaro's slot' date=' that's why I'm comparing those two. And Mortensen may be a bum. But amazingly, he's been a more valuable major leaguer than Marco Scutaro has been this year. I would never have thought that was possible when the trade was made, but there it is.[/quote']

 

Playing his home games in Colorado, of all places.

[a700hitter]

Aviles slid into Scutaro's slot' date=' that's why I'm comparing those two. And Mortensen may be a bum. But amazingly, he's been a more valuable major leaguer than Marco Scutaro has been this year. I would never have thought that was possible when the trade was made, but there it is.[/quote']The mistake was getting Puinto. They could have stayed with Scutaro and Aviles. If we had Scutaro instead of Pinto, it would have helped when Pedroia was down and when WMB was down after Youk got traded. Mortensen is bush league garbage. He isn't more valuable than anyone.

[Bellhorn04]

The mistake was getting Puinto. They could have stayed with Scutaro and Aviles. If we had Scutaro instead of Pinto' date=' it would have helped when Pedroia was down and when WMB was down after Youk got traded. [b']Mortensen is bush league garbage. He isn't more valuable than anyone.[/b]

 

C'mon, he beat Justin Verlander last night.

[a700hitter]

C'mon' date=' he beat Justin Verlander last night. [/quote']And as thanks the Red Sox are buying him a train ticket back to Pawtucket today.

[kapsis21]

why did we let go of Justin Germano?? he pitched 5 innings of relief against the Yankees. if it was any other team i wouldnt have cared.. but he stymied the f***ing yankees.

[BornToRun]

He's also Justin Germano.

[kapsis21]

He's also Justin Germano.

 

exactly who is he.. we signed him in the offseason and never to use him.. but we keep using bum Albers and DiceK this year and we used Bedard last year even though we had Milwood at AAA.

 

and not that i miss Albers, but we gave him up for Breslow.. hmm

[Orange Juiced]

And as thanks the Red Sox are buying him a train ticket back to Pawtucket today.

 

He has options, that's why. Dude has been really good for the Sox this year. And yes, he's been more valuable than Scutaro. Hard as it is, perhaps, to believe.

[a700hitter]

He has options' date=' that's why. Dude has been really good for the Sox this year. And yes, he's been more valuable than Scutaro. Hard as it is, perhaps, to believe.[/quote']He stinks. Melancon has options too and an 8.72 ERA, but yet they optioned Mortensen. That's what happens to bullpen guys who can't hit 90 on the gun.

[Orange Juiced]

He stinks. Melancon has options too and an 8.72 ERA' date=' but yet they optioned Mortensen. That's what happens to bullpen guys who can't hit 90 on the gun.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I guess he stinks. I mean, pitching in Colorado of all places last year he only put up a 3.86 era (117 era+) in 58.1 innings. So now in the last two seasons, weak fastball and all, pitching primarily in two of the best hitters' parks in baseball, he's done this:

 

81.1 ip, 3.10 era, 145 era+, 1.21 whip, averages 3+ innings per outing

 

I dunno...for what he makes ($487k), that's a pretty nice long reliever or last guy in the bullpen.

 

I guess you and I define "stinks" differently.....

[a700hitter]

Yeah, I guess he stinks. I mean, pitching in Colorado of all places last year he only put up a 3.86 era (117 era+) in 58.1 innings. So now in the last two seasons, weak fastball and all, pitching primarily in two of the best hitters' parks in baseball, he's done this:

 

81.1 ip, 3.10 era, 145 era+, 1.21 whip, averages 3+ innings per outing

 

I dunno...for what he makes ($487k), that's a pretty nice long reliever or last guy in the bullpen.

 

I guess you and I define "stinks" differently.....

He stinks. He's a 27 year old minor leaguer bull pen guy that can't hit 90 on a radar gun. He was little more than a bag of balls. This thread may be your little known fact of the day nugget, but I ain't buying. He's a minor league roster filler and emergency call up guy. Once he no longer has options, he'll be of value to no team.

[Orange Juiced]

He stinks. He's a 27 year old minor leaguer bull pen guy that can't hit 90 on a radar gun. He was little more than a bag of balls. This thread may be your little known fact of the day nugget' date=' but I ain't buying. He's a minor league roster filler and emergency call up guy. Once he no longer has options, he'll be of value to no team.[/quote']

 

Everything you say here may be right. And yet I can't help but notice that over the past two seasons, pitching in two of the best hitters' parks in baseball, all he's done is get people out and put up really solid numbers.

 

:dunno:

[kapsis21]

Everything you say here may be right. And yet I can't help but notice that over the past two seasons, pitching in two of the best hitters' parks in baseball, all he's done is get people out and put up really solid numbers.

 

:dunno:

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[MJantomaso]

Mortensen is a bush league bum who will not get enough major league time to qualify for the ML pension. Scutaro was not traded for Aviles. We already had Aviles. Scutaro is light years better than Punto. That's the other side of the story.

 

Boy I wish I could be a bum posting a 1.17 era. And where in that statement did he say Aviles was traded for Scoot? My reading comprehension must be way off.

[MJantomaso]

He stinks. Melancon has options too and an 8.72 ERA' date=' but yet they optioned Mortensen. That's what happens to bullpen guys who can't hit 90 on the gun.[/quote']

 

He's also a sinker baller and uses his pitch movement to his advantage. If you have ever played or been around the game, an 88 mph sinker is much harder to hit than a sinker thrown in the mid 90s. The harder you throw the less it moves...

[a700hitter]

Boy I wish I could be a bum posting a 1.17 era. And where in that statement did he say Aviles was traded for Scoot? My reading comprehension must be way off.

Yes, your reading comprehension must be off. He was comparing Aviles to Scutaro as "his replacement". I pointed out that Scutaro had not been traded for Aviles. We had them both. If we had kept them both, they would have played in many of the same games due to the injuries to Pedroia, Youk and WMB. In fact, Aviles may have gotten some PT in the OF where he had played winter ball. That is why the Aviles to Scutaro comparison makes no sense. The comparison that makes sense is the Scutaro to Punto, the guy who took Scutaro's roster spot. That is not a close comparison, and the teeny tiny contribution from Mortensen does not make up for that difference. I can't say it any more clearly.

[jacksonianmarch]

Mortensen is getting by with that devastating changeup. He has a role and as long as he can locate his fastball down and throw the change down and out of the zone, he'll be effective. If he starts elevating, he'll be meat

[a700hitter]

Mortensen is getting by with that devastating changeup. He has a role and as long as he can locate his fastball down and throw the change down and out of the zone' date=' he'll be effective. If he starts elevating, he'll be meat[/quote']He got his ticket to Pawtucket I think. They need to make room for Breslow.

[Orange Juiced]

Yes' date=' your reading comprehension must be off. He was comparing Aviles to Scutaro as "his replacement". I pointed out that Scutaro had not been traded for Aviles. We had them both. If we had kept them both, they would have played in many of the same games due to the injuries to Pedroia, Youk and WMB. In fact, Aviles may have gotten some PT in the OF where he had played winter ball. That is why the Aviles to Scutaro comparison makes no sense. The comparison that makes sense is the Scutaro to Punto, the guy who took Scutaro's roster spot. That is not a close comparison, and the teeny tiny contribution from Mortensen does not make up for that difference. I can't say it any more clearly.[/quote']

 

Well, if you want to be technical, the Sox didn't trade Scutaro for Punto either, so with that logic, it doesn't make sense either. I was just going by the guy that they plugged into the starting SS role in place of Scutaro.

 

But let's work with you for a minute and go with Punto.

 

2012 b-ref WAR

Scutaro: 0.1

Punto: 0.2

 

That takes into account offense, defense, and baserunning. Suprising, no?

 

Add Punto (+0.2) and Mortensen (+0.8), and compare that to Punto (+0.1), and you *still* get more value from what the Sox got in that trade.

 

I'm new here, admittedly, and I know you're the king of this forum, so I know that taking you on on this small matter may mean I suffer the consequences. We'll see.

[a700hitter]

Well, if you want to be technical, the Sox didn't trade Scutaro for Punto either, so with that logic, it doesn't make sense either. I was just going by the guy that they plugged into the starting SS role in place of Scutaro.

 

But let's work with you for a minute and go with Punto.

 

2012 b-ref WAR

Scutaro: 0.1

Punto: 0.2

 

That takes into account offense, defense, and baserunning. Suprising, no?

 

Add Punto (+0.2) and Mortensen (+0.8), and compare that to Punto (+0.1), and you *still* get more value from what the Sox got in that trade.

 

I'm new here, admittedly, and I know you're the king of this forum, so I know that taking you on on this small matter may mean I suffer the consequences. We'll see.

I really don't put much stock in WAR. You can find whatever numbers you want to torture any way you'd like. Your use of it here demonstrates why it is a completely unreliable measure. Mortensen is so good that if he is lucky he gets to stay with the big team for 2 -3 games. This time he lasted one game. If he was that good, you think he'd at least jump ahead of the horrible Melancon on the depth chart. Melancon also has minor league options. He's worse than Melancon so back to the minors with him. That's not me. That's was Ben Cher, who you are complimenting on the Scutaro trade. And how stupid must the first place San Francisco Giants be when they are having Scutaro bat 5th behind Buster Posey instead of Punto, a bench warmer on a team that has been in last place most of the season. because he can't even be relied upon to lay down a bunt without making 2 outs. Yes, so much for WAR.

[Bellhorn04]

You gotta have a pretty weak lineup to have Scoots batting 5th.

[a700hitter]

You gotta have a pretty weak lineup to have Scoots batting 5th.

Oh yeah, no doubt about that, but stronger than if Punto was batting 5th.

[Orange Juiced]

I really don't put much stock in WAR. You can find whatever numbers you want to torture any way you'd like. Your use of it here demonstrates why it is a completely unreliable measure. Mortensen is so good that if he is lucky he gets to stay with the big team for 2 -3 games. This time he lasted one game. If he was that good' date=' you think he'd at least jump ahead of the horrible Melancon on the depth chart. Melancon also has minor league options. He's worse than Melancon so back to the minors with him. That's not me. That's was Ben Cher, who you are complimenting on the Scutaro trade. And how stupid must the first place San Francisco Giants be when they are having Scutaro bat 5th behind Buster Posey instead of Punto, a bench warmer on a team that has been in last place most of the season. because he can't even be relied upon to lay down a bunt without making 2 outs. Yes, so much for WAR.[/quote']

 

I'll go back to what I said a few posts ago: Over the past two seasons, pitching in two of the best hitters' parks in baseball, Clayton Mortensen has put up a 3.10 era (145 era+) and a 1.21 whip. For a guy who sucks rocks, he sure is pitching pretty well.

 

What's interesting is that he was a starter until last season. His numbers as a starter were pretty bad, but as a reliever, he's been nothing short of terrific. Your point about him not throwing hard is probably what made him a bad starter. You get through the lineup once or twice and big league hitters will figure you out if you're Mortensen. But that first time through....well, he's been pretty good.

 

That means that his stuff is good enough to fool hitters initially but that he can't get away with it for more than, say, 3 innings in a given game.

 

His fastball is very hittable. Opponents are hitting .286 off his FB this year. But his changeup? Holy smokes. Opponents are hitting just .115 off it.

 

Bottom line: he's an effective major league relief pitcher. Period. He just is. He's now shown it for two straight seasons. Hate on him all you want but the guy has done the job.

[a700hitter]

I'll go back to what I said a few posts ago: Over the past two seasons, pitching in two of the best hitters' parks in baseball, Clayton Mortensen has put up a 3.10 era (145 era+) and a 1.21 whip. For a guy who sucks rocks, he sure is pitching pretty well.

 

What's interesting is that he was a starter until last season. His numbers as a starter were pretty bad, but as a reliever, he's been nothing short of terrific. Your point about him not throwing hard is probably what made him a bad starter. You get through the lineup once or twice and big league hitters will figure you out if you're Mortensen. But that first time through....well, he's been pretty good.

 

That means that his stuff is good enough to fool hitters initially but that he can't get away with it for more than, say, 3 innings in a given game.

 

His fastball is very hittable. Opponents are hitting .286 off his FB this year. But his changeup? Holy smokes. Opponents are hitting just .115 off it.

 

Bottom line: he's an effective major league relief pitcher. Period. He just is. He's now shown it for two straight seasons. Hate on him all you want but the guy has done the job.

Who hates him? I wish he could be the next Papelbon, but he will not be. He's not even the next Melancon. Effective "major league relief pitcher'? He's 27 and still in the minors. He hasn't spent a full single season in the majors, so I don't know if I want to concede the characterization of him as a major league pitcher, because he can't seem to find a full time job in the majors. As a reliever, he has a whopping 47 innings under his belt, mainly garbage innings. He's pitched 2 games in his career in Late and Close situations. The guy is a throw in for a trade and minor league roster filler. No one will know his name next season when he is out of options. He's not worthy of this stupid discussion.

[Orange Juiced]

You win.

[lospunchados]

You don't need a mid nineties fastball to be succesful. You need good location and a plus pitch , wether it's a fastball, changeup, curve it doesn't matter but you need good location . As long as he keeps that up he will be an effective reliever. You need a few guys like him in a bullpen.

 

By your logic, only go for guys that throw mid nineties with a track record, doesn't always pan out either. I mean Jenks and Gagne were much better than Mortensen for us.

[Orange Juiced]

You don't need a mid nineties fastball to be succesful. You need good location and a plus pitch , wether it's a fastball, changeup, curve it doesn't matter but you need good location . As long as he keeps that up he will be an effective reliever. You need a few guys like him in a bullpen.

 

By your logic, only go for guys that throw mid nineties with a track record, doesn't always pan out either. I mean Jenks and Gagne were much better than Mortensen for us.

 

It doesn't matter. Mortensen stinks. I've come around to the king's point of view.