7/30 vs Detroit @ Home

[SoxFanForsyth]

Wonder what this team is going to look like at tomorrow's game.

 

Hope Cliff Lee is with them #pipedream

[BornToRun]

I honestly think lavs is gonna wind up in a deal for a pitcher at some point.

[a700hitter]

People complaining about Adrian infuriates me the most out of all the stupid things that've been said about this team. It's like last year never happened.

 

Rizzo has a few good weeks and all of a sudden he's an MVP and we f***ed up.

We just won our third in a row, so why are you furious?

[BornToRun]

Wonder what this team is going to look like at tomorrow's game.

 

Hope Cliff Lee is with them #pipedream

 

You'd eat that contract?

[Bellhorn04]

wouldn't mind seeing salty, aviles traded. would open up catching for Lav, SS for Iggy.

Shoppy is the guy who may get dealt.

 

I would hate to see Shopp dealt now. I think he's been great this year.

[BornToRun]

We just won our third in a row' date=' so why are you furious?[/quote']

 

Fair point.

[VA Sox Fan]

I discovered Sunday that I actually have NESN on my non-HD channels. So far pretty cool. But BV's post game interview just sucked. Well, it is BV after all. What a dolt!

[Youk Of The Nation]

People complaining about Adrian infuriates me the most out of all the stupid things that've been said about this team. It's like last year never happened.

 

Rizzo has a few good weeks and all of a sudden he's an MVP and we f***ed up.

 

 

Based on their past performance, it was obvious that Lackey, Crawford, and Gonzalez would underperform. There was so much evidence that they would be bad signings, I don't know how the FO could have missed it!

 

Seriously though, this is why I have been trying to stay optimistic about the season. Almost everyone who you could blame on-field for losses (Lester, Beckett, Crawford [for not being here until a week or so ago], Aceves, Gonzalez...) are guys that have proven themselves to be elite players in the past. It sucks that they all started underperforming at the same time and I agree that much of that probably has to do with ineffective management, but to propose getting rid of three-quarters of a roster when all of the names read like a who's who of Top-Tens for the last few years is ridiculous.

 

The only two people I genuinely want to see gone on this team are Saltalamacchia and Valentine. (Other than the obvious ones, like Punto).

[italstallianion]

No Lucchino?

[BornToRun]

Based on their past performance, it was obvious that Lackey, Crawford, and Gonzalez would underperform. There was so much evidence that they would be bad signings, I don't know how the FO could have missed it!

 

Seriously though, this is why I have been trying to stay optimistic about the season. Almost everyone who you could blame on-field for losses (Lester, Beckett, Crawford [for not being here until a week or so ago], Aceves, Gonzalez...) are guys that have proven themselves to be elite players in the past. It sucks that they all started underperforming at the same time and I agree that much of that probably has to do with ineffective management, but to propose getting rid of three-quarters of a roster when all of the names read like a who's who of Top-Tens for the last few years is ridiculous.

 

The only two people I genuinely want to see gone on this team are Saltalamacchia and Valentine. (Other than the obvious ones, like Punto).

 

I agree with all of this for the most part. I still like jarrod and dont hate Bobby as much as some others might though but the rest of your post I'm right on board with you.

[SoxSport]

I think a basic problem with the FO is they filled holes on the roster with retreads instead of going to the farm system, and giving the prospects a chance. The result is a lot of mediocrity in the lineup with no upside.

[VA Sox Fan]

No Lucchino?

 

It would take a miracle for him to walk away. Miracle's happen? Right?

[italstallianion]

It would take a miracle for him to walk away. Miracle's happen? Right?

 

 

I'm hoping for a miracle that would make him physically unable to walk away. I will go to church every day if that happens.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I think a basic problem with the FO is they filled holes on the roster with retreads instead of going to the farm system' date=' and giving the prospects a chance. The result is a lot of mediocrity in the lineup with no upside.[/quote']

 

Gonzalez and Crawford and Lackey were retreads? Gonzalez and Crawford were in the top ten, if not top 5, at their positions at the time of their signings, with ostensibly several good-to-great years ahead of them. Lackey was not a top-ten starter, but he was one of the best available at the time and certainly no slouch. It's not like Theo gave Gil Meche 55 million dollars or bankrupted himself for a guy who only had ONE good season, like the Nats did with Werth. Just because guys have a bad season doesn't mean we should blame the FO, or really anyone except the player themselves for sucking at the time. No one could have predicted the season they got from Crawford last year, and no one who looks at what he has accomplished should honestly expect him to continue playing at that level. Same with Gonzalez, but even more so considering how amazing he was for the Sox last season.

 

Complaining about the signings of the FO makes no sense to me. It's like buying a new car, a model that has been held up as a standard of excellence in every automotive journal in the country, and then getting into an accident and blaming the dealer and manufacturer. Yes, the car sucks now because it crashed, but when you got it there was no reason to expect anything but excellence. Going on the information you had at the time it was the best thing that you could have done.

 

This holds true for Crawford, Gonzalez, Lackey, and even Bailey (though he wouldn't have been the best available if they had kept Pap)

 

The only huge mistakes I think Theo ever made were committing so much money to Dice-K, trading Arroyo for Pena, and trading Renteria away after only one season.

[a700hitter]

Sweeney replaced in RF. Traded?

The idiot punched a door and might have broken his hand. It will be tough to trade him now.

[kapsis21]

I doubt that would happen.

 

You mean the reds Mesoraco right?

 

Yes.

[BornToRun]

I don't think cincy would bite on that.

[kapsis21]

I don't think cincy would bite on that.

 

Yeah I know. Sigh

[VA Sox Fan]

The idiot punched a door and might have broken his hand. It will be tough to trade him now.

 

They aren't going to do xrays until tomorrow. But yeah, what an idiot. :thumbdown

[jung]

Sweeney making sure he does his part to fit into the general boneheadedness of many of the guys on this team...I guess he wants to prove he is a real Red Sox player. Congratulations Sweeney....you make the grade.

[Klare]

I'm so happy our Red Sox won three in a row. We've seen them fighting and winning twice in New York and I hope that we put a streak of 5 wins than we're on the right track to get back in the play off race. They can't bring back my health but I'm so happy to see them win. Go Red Sox!!

[jung]

Almost everyone who you could blame on-field for losses (Lester, Beckett, Crawford [for not being here until a week or so ago], Aceves, Gonzalez...) are guys that have proven themselves to be elite players in the past. It sucks that they all started underperforming at the same time and I agree that much of that probably has to do with ineffective management, but to propose getting rid of three-quarters of a roster when all of the names read like a who's who of Top-Tens for the last few years is ridiculous.

 

What is ridiculous is the assumption that players MUST meet their career numbers. Players age...they change....and beyond aging and more permanent changes, they go through cycles similar to golfers....do we expect pro tour golfers to "come back to their career numbers"? Of course we don't. In fact, we are mostly shocked when pro tour golfers come back to their former dominance and expecting that baseball players MUST, I repeat MUST come back to their career numbers is even more ridiculous. I use MUST here because the claim is made so often and stridently for that matter that you would think that "return to career numbers" came down with Moses from the mountain on one of the tablets.

 

Beckett is NEVER coming back to being the pitcher he once was....NEVER...take it to the bank. He may finally succeed at the transition he is undergoing, one he surely had begun by 2011 but he will never be the same pitcher he once was.

 

Gonzalez and Crawford were in the top ten, if not top 5, at their positions at the time of their signings, with ostensibly several good-to-great years ahead of them. Lackey was not a top-ten starter, but he was one of the best available at the time and certainly no slouch.

 

The similarity between the Lackey, Gonzalez and Crawford signings is that all three of them had injuries/physical maladies at the time of their signings that the Sox knew about and in the case of Agons, an injury to a major joint (shoulder) that he was rehabing from and in all three cases the Sox STILL gave them all the money...in fact all the money PLUS....stupid!!!! Idiotic!!!!! Drunken sailor dumb

 

In the case of Crawford he was never going to be a fit for this team ever...he was and is always going to be underutilized on this team...hence he was always going to be over-paid even if performing at his best by virtue of underutilization if nothing else. The Crawford signing was always going to be a bad deal at $142 for seven years, a bad deal that could only turn into a worse deal....has actually turned into a disastrous deal. Never mind where he was ranked or any of that...he was NEVER going to be a fit here. At best he was going to be the most expensive insurance policy ever for Ells leaving town...even that was a foolish, ridiculous, idiotic rational for signing him to that deal.

 

Lackey while having known elbow problems, was and is a contact pitcher....to be avoided like the plague in the AL East, not lavished with all the money. As usual, the Sox had the money to spent and simply went to the top of the FA market and spent it...foolishly particularly in light of the fact that this is the exact thinking that has left us with the knotted purse strings we have now. Never mind who is there at the top of that particular FA market list...never mind whether he has a physical malady that may make performing like we are paying him even possible...he is at the top of the list....we are taking him and we are giving him all the money plus....stupid, idiotic, drunkin sailor dumb

 

Agons may well never regain his power and it may well be a consequence of his injured shoulder. He is getting power hitter money and if he never does better than he is doing now, he is as has been described earlier...Wade Boggs in a larger suit size.... Agons while a fine ballplayer...never should have gotten all the money under the circumstances under which he was signed and may never be the power hitter we purportedly were signing. If that meant we did not sign him...so be it! Given the choice between wretched excess and rational thinking the Sox of that time and maybe still again some day picked wretched excess as usual. Don't talk to me about the occasional Fenway wall homer he hits now or home runs hit in the "house that Granderson built" he has hit few true power hitter home runs since the half way mark of the 2011 season.

 

Lets not forget gems like Jenks and Cameron.....nobody and I mean nobody contests with any credibility the fact that Theos or I should say the management and baseball operations group that in essence is still here absent Theo was horribly bad at major FA signings....it's real high points long in the past, its best is in recent memory, JD Drew. Nuff said.

 

I will never argue that the Sox should not spend exorbitantly to support this team. It is the manner in which they spend the money that has gotten them into this mess. By all means....spend the money...but use some intelligence doing it....don't tell me that you always wanted so and so (Agons) or that Mr. XYZ is at the top of this particular FA market cause I could care less...I can see with my own eyes what that kind of thinking has done for us.

[a700hitter]

What is ridiculous is the assumption that players MUST meet their career numbers. Players age...they change....and beyond aging and more permanent changes, they go through cycles similar to golfers....do we expect pro tour golfers to "come back to their career numbers"? Of course we don't. In fact, we are mostly shocked when pro tour golfers come back to their former dominance and expecting that baseball players MUST, I repeat MUST come back to their career numbers is even more ridiculous. I use MUST here because the claim is made so often and stridently for that matter that you would think that "return to career numbers" came down with Moses from the mountain on one of the tablets.

 

Beckett is NEVER coming back to being the pitcher he once was....NEVER...take it to the bank. He may finally succeed at the transition he is undergoing, one he surely had begun by 2011 but he will never be the same pitcher he once was.

 

 

 

The similarity between the Lackey, Gonzalez and Crawford signings is that all three of them had injuries/physical maladies at the time of their signings that the Sox knew about and in the case of Agons, an injury to a major joint (shoulder) that he was rehabing from and in all three cases the Sox STILL gave them all the money...in fact all the money PLUS....stupid!!!! Idiotic!!!!! Drunken sailor dumb

 

In the case of Crawford he was never going to be a fit for this team ever...he was and is always going to be underutilized on this team...hence he was always going to be over-paid even if performing at his best by virtue of underutilization if nothing else. The Crawford signing was always going to be a bad deal at $142 for seven years, a bad deal that could only turn into a worse deal....has actually turned into a disastrous deal. Never mind where he was ranked or any of that...he was NEVER going to be a fit here. At best he was going to be the most expensive insurance policy ever for Ells leaving town...even that was a foolish, ridiculous, idiotic rational for signing him to that deal.

 

Lackey while having known elbow problems, was and is a contact pitcher....to be avoided like the plague in the AL East, not lavished with all the money. As usual, the Sox had the money to spent and simply went to the top of the FA market and spent it...foolishly particularly in light of the fact that this is the exact thinking that has left us with the knotted purse strings we have now. Never mind who is there at the top of that particular FA market list...never mind whether he has a physical malady that may make performing like we are paying him even possible...he is at the top of the list....we are taking him and we are giving him all the money plus....stupid, idiotic, drunkin sailor dumb

 

Agons may well never regain his power and it may well be a consequence of his injured shoulder. He is getting power hitter money and if he never does better than he is doing now, he is as has been described earlier...Wade Boggs in a larger suit size.... Agons while a fine ballplayer...never should have gotten all the money under the circumstances under which he was signed and may never be the power hitter we purportedly were signing. If that meant we did not sign him...so be it! Given the choice between wretched excess and rational thinking the Sox of that time and maybe still again some day picked wretched excess as usual. Don't talk to me about the occasional Fenway wall homer he hits now or home runs hit in the "house that Granderson built" he has hit few true power hitter home runs since the half way mark of the 2011 season.

 

Lets not forget gems like Jenks and Cameron.....nobody and I mean nobody contests with any credibility the fact that Theos or I should say the management and baseball operations group that in essence is still here absent Theo was horribly bad at major FA signings....it's real high points long in the past, its best is in recent memory, JD Drew. Nuff said.

 

I will never argue that the Sox should not spend exorbitantly to support this team. It is the manner in which they spend the money that has gotten them into this mess. By all means....spend the money...but use some intelligence doing it....don't tell me that you always wanted so and so (Agons) or that Mr. XYZ is at the top of this particular FA market cause I could care less...I can see with my own eyes what that kind of thinking has done for us.

Wow, this some chronicle of failure. Branch Rickey used to say that it was better to trade a player too early than to late. Players do change, skills deteriorate and they need to adapt. Coaches, managers and other players know when a guy has lost a few clicks off his fastball. Beckett has lost a few, and they ain't coming back. He may transition into a different type of pitcher, but Beckett as a hard thrower is history. Lester seems to be headed down a similar path as his velocity has been clicking down for the last 2 years and it is reflected in his decreasing strikeout numbers. Alarmingly, Lester is showing less of an ability to adjust to his diminishing skills than Beckett. It may be time to move him in the off season. Expecting players to perform up to career norms is part of the folly of sabremetrics. I think that it is more true that players who are performing above career norms will regress to those norms, but not the other way around.

 

As for the chronicling of the signings of injured players, it really does lay bare the incompetence of the FO. As you point out, Lackey's elbow problems were known. He was a TJ surgery in waiting. Carl Crawford's wrist problems had been ongoing for a few years. How do you invest $142 million in a guys and not know this. If you buy an expensive used car, you test drive it, take it to your mechanic to be checked, and you get a copy of the damn Car Fax. They either didn't get the Car Fax on Crawford or they didn't care about the recurring wrist pain. As for AGon, that was truly drunken sailor stupid. They threw a boatload of money at a guy with a bad shoulder that had just been operated. I was thrilled when they got him, but I was really concerned when I read that he had just had shoulder surgery. He is getting power hitter money. 25 HRs, and he will probably not reach that this season, is a dime a dozen for first baseman. They could get 30 or so HRs from LaRoche for about 20% of the cost of Gonzo. Performing at a high .700 OPS (where he is now) or a low .800 OPS is not worth $22 million/yr.

[jung]

It is entirely possible that Lester's issues are tied to his mechanical problems which are likely solvable. However he has been working slowing up to this exaggerated motion now for the past two years really where he is throwing half of his body weight across and away leaving his shoulder and arm open and for the most part detached from where his lower body is going. As bad as that motion looks when he is using it, it is now likely the motion his muscles have grown used to and it will take time to get back to something effective again. You could see him struggling with it in the Yankee start...it was taking tremendous concentration for him to avoid it especially pitching from the stretch. As others have pointed out...his ERA actually went up in a game that comparatively speaking looked pretty good for him. But you could see it happening to him...I put up a post in the game thread as soon as I saw him starting to open up leaving his shoulder hung out in space. One inning later, in the stretch again...runs aplenty for the Yanks. In my view it will be an off season at least for him to work his way back to the point where a better motion is the norm and not the exception....not something that takes tremendous concentration for him to maintain. Every stint he has remaining this year will likely be a gutsy performance. However at least in my view he CAN fix this and be again the pitcher he once was. That is simply not possible in Beckett's case.