Time for Valentine to go

[Youk Of The Nation]

It always seems like Shakespeare is the only writer from that era that anyone knows/cares about outside of avid readers or literary scholars.

 

There is a small amount of evidence that Shakespeare himself wrote a play based on one of the storylines in Don Quixote.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Also, not to stray too far off-topic, but I agree that Valentine sucks.

[Elktonnick]

Also' date=' not to stray too far off-topic, but I agree that Valentine sucks.[/quote']

 

"The fact is I was born to be an example of misfortune, and the target and mark at which the arrows of adversity are aimed and directed. " Cervantes: Don Quixote Vol 2 Chapter 10

[SoxSport]

It's not the players they have to change, it's the attitude of some of the players that needs changing.

And that can only be accomplished with a new manager, coaches, GM and training staff--eliminating the sources of conflict. The organization has gone bad, and LL/Henry made things worse by creating more conflict. I don't understand how Valentine could have accepted the job under the circumstances--it doesn't look as though he has much authority. The front office has been given too much rope, and they are hanging themselves with bad judgement.

[mvp 78]

It's not the players they have to change' date=' it's the attitude of some of the players that needs changing.[/quote']

 

Good luck changing Beckett, Lackey, et al's attitudes...

[Spitball]

By Zach Links [August 5 at 9:09am CST]

•Ellsbury was upset that his name was included in trade rumors with the Rangers, according to a source. Ellsbury is said to like playing for Bobby Valentine and the feeling is that he'd like to remain with the Red Sox.

 

I found this interesting. It makes me wonder if we are fully aware of the clubhouse climate. There seems to be a lot of writers wanting to make write National Enquirer like drama.

[jung]

Regardless of who they bring in to manage if the players feel like they can just go to ownership/management and complain and actually get something to happen, they are doomed, doomed! I have never seen anything like this in my entire lifetime and hope to God I never see it again in any team, ones that I am cheering for and ones not....this is just to ugly for eyes to behold.

 

I hope I never see a bunch of players given the distinction of a team that are so utterly underserving in that regard. The players took on this mantle...they took control of the team and did exactly what you would expect a bunch of individuals with their own individual priorities and agendas would do with it....they buried it under those individual priorities and agendas.

 

Oh yea Pedey, this is the way we do things around here alright.....this is exactly the way we do things around here. They should put up a God Damned plaque above Fenway Park with those memorable words em-blazed on it. The players got their way alright.....I think we are going to be treated to a full understanding for how little they actually care about being a winning team. They have not cared all year preferring to care far more about their pet peeves and petty grievances. "How dare management hire a manager that might haul us into line. We will show them. We will bury him without even giving him a chance. That will show them."

 

All they showed us is how undeserving they are of even wearing the mantle of a "team", something they surely are not.

[ibot2much]

I don't think Pedey has helped himself this year for being the Mighty Mouth ( Here I come to save the day) in his defense of KY. Fans have expected the mouth and accepted it when he was doing really well for the team. However, his numbers are pretty low and you wonder if it was anybody else but the fan fav if he would be sitting more...You shouldn't play every day if you are not producing.

[3rdManOut]

I know I may get shot for this, but I think we should at least give Valentine until the end of his contract. What is it like 2 years? I agree that he hasn't done the best job but we just hired the guy. I blame the players first and then higher management. Its not like we really have people waiting in line to take Valentines place anyway. Right now he just happens to be the middle man in a very messed up organization with bad attitudes.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I don't think Pedey has helped himself this year for being the Mighty Mouth ( Here I come to save the day) in his defense of KY. Fans have expected the mouth and accepted it when he was doing really well for the team. However' date=' his numbers are pretty low and you wonder if it was anybody else but the fan fav if he would be sitting more...You shouldn't play every day if you are not producing.[/quote']

 

I feel pretty positive it was probably him who went and whined to the front office about the Middlebrooks thing. And it's pathetic that instead of the front office telling to shut his mouth and go play instead of crying about s*** they backed him up and gave Valentine crap when he didn't really deserve it.

 

He needs to be taken down a notch honestly.

[jung]

The whole miserable bunch of them need to be taken down a notch. This is disgusting. They play like s***...whine at a moments notice.....have not exhibited a single characteristic that you would associate with a "team" since August of last year and expect what for it....their monster salaries and the admiration of adoring fans. The whole miserable bunch can go ta' hell.

 

You have no idea how far away from being a V ally I ever thought I would be but considering how he has been treated by Management and the Players frankly he can do whatever he wants as far as I am concerned. He has built up so many chits in his corner at this point that I don't have a choice.

 

As for the players....they are an embarrassment....AT BEST

[Designated Hater]

The fact of the matter is this: Bobby was professional this year, ALWAYS walking the company line. Sure, he had some f***ing mysterious backhanded messages and clues in the media that would really tell you the story as to what is going on behind the scenes, but dude showed up, did his job, got f***ed with a ragtag coaching staff, s*** players making too much money, and an ownership group that doesn't care about anything except Liverpool soccer because it's the new, shiny toy under the tree.

 

f*** them all EXCEPT BOBBY V.

 

I feel bad for the poor bastard and there was no way (unless he took 30 minutes to talk with his predecessor) to know what he was getting himself into. MLB jobs aren't a dime a dozen. There are 30 managerial jobs available and most of them are wrapped in political bull s*** that would make you vomit. The worst job in MLB is the Red Sox. Between the media, ownership, players, the f***ing New York/little man complex everyone has, and the fan base that mostly only shows up to sing Sweet Caroline so WEEI can play it on the radio, I'd say f*** it all. There must be a better job out there than in this city.

 

2004 was good, but that was a LONG time ago.

 

We're f***ed until John Henry sells. Until then, expect a long line of 3rd place finishes or even lower like this year. Will it surprise any of you if this team is in last place come October 1st? This Twins series was the icing on the cake for 2012.

[Thunder]

The fact of the matter is this: Bobby was professional this year, ALWAYS walking the company line. Sure, he had some f***ing mysterious backhanded messages and clues in the media that would really tell you the story as to what is going on behind the scenes, but dude showed up, did his job, got f***ed with a ragtag coaching staff, s*** players making too much money, and an ownership group that doesn't care about anything except Liverpool soccer because it's the new, shiny toy under the tree.

 

f*** them all EXCEPT BOBBY V.

 

I feel bad for the poor bastard and there was no way (unless he took 30 minutes to talk with his predecessor) to know what he was getting himself into. MLB jobs aren't a dime a dozen. There are 30 managerial jobs available and most of them are wrapped in political bull s*** that would make you vomit. The worst job in MLB is the Red Sox. Between the media, ownership, players, the f***ing New York/little man complex everyone has, and the fan base that mostly only shows up to sing Sweet Caroline so WEEI can play it on the radio, I'd say f*** it all. There must be a better job out there than in this city.

 

2004 was good, but that was a LONG time ago.

 

We're f***ed until John Henry sells. Until then, expect a long line of 3rd place finishes or even lower like this year. Will it surprise any of you if this team is in last place come October 1st? This Twins series was the icing on the cake for 2012.

 

The season ends on October 3rd:harhar:

 

Can't they fire the whole f***ing FO (including BV)and get new people? We can probably all agree that it is all on them.

[jung]

For constructing this piece of s*** team it is all on them. For playing like this...it is all on the players. The players wanted the responsibility...they took it upon themselves so now they can take their responsibility for the result. They did it their way.

[jung]

It just keeps getting better and better.

 

Ortiz announcing that he is not going to jeopardize the rest of his career by coming back to early. Clearly double speak for "Ells and Crawford dragged out their rehabs only coming back when they were fully confident that they could not do more damage than they were prepared to sustain."

 

Fine David do as you please...another perfect fit for this bunch (I refuse to any longer refer to them as a team). There was no need to announce anything. When you come back is when you come back.

 

Salty announced to the world that he no longer knows what his role is.....meaning what Salty???.... that just because the team brought Lavs up while Ortiz is on the shelf, you no longer know what your role is???

 

I can tell you that Salty. Shut the f*** up....look for your name on the lineup card and go play the position assigned....how is that for role you K machining, stone handed jerk.

[jacksonianmarch]

It just keeps getting better and better.

 

Ortiz announcing that he is not going to jeopardize the rest of his career by coming back to early. Clearly double speak for "Ells and Crawford dragged out their rehabs only coming back when they were fully confident that they could not do more damage than they were prepared to sustain."

 

Fine David do as you please...another perfect fit for this bunch (I refuse to any longer refer to them as a team). There was no need to announce anything. When you come back is when you come back.

 

Salty announced to the world that he no longer knows what his role is.....meaning what Salty???.... that just because the team brought Lavs up while Ortiz is on the shelf, you no longer know what your role is???

 

I can tell you that Salty. Shut the f*** up....look for your name on the lineup card and go play the position assigned....how is that for role you K machining, stone handed jerk.

 

They're all in it for themselves. This is exactly why they are self destructing. 25 guys pulling in 25 different directions gets you stuck in the middle, which is exactly where the sox are.

[jung]

I suspect the other message Ortiz is trying to send (since I believe under the current CBA, the Sox could not go the arb route again) is sign me to a two year deal now and maybe my rehab goes faster....suddenly my Achilles will feel so much better.

[3rdManOut]

I suspect the other message Ortiz is trying to send (since I believe under the current CBA' date=' the Sox could not go the arb route again) is sign me to a two year deal now and maybe my rehab goes faster....suddenly my Achilles will feel so much better.[/quote']

 

Wow, thats pretty scary. I never thought of it that way before. If thats the case I wouldn't blame him one bit.

[Sox23]

They're all in it for themselves. This is exactly why they are self destructing. 25 guys pulling in 25 different directions gets you stuck in the middle' date=' which is exactly where the sox are.[/quote']

[wyo-sox]

My dream at this point.... Ownership sells the team. The new owner makes Bobby V. the new GM with the full authority to do his job. How would you like to be a fly on the wall in his office when he meets with some of these players? Lol.

[SoxSport]

I suspect the other message Ortiz is trying to send (since I believe under the current CBA' date=' the Sox could not go the arb route again) is sign me to a two year deal now and maybe my rehab goes faster....suddenly my Achilles will feel so much better.[/quote']

 

If Papi can get hurt just walking around the bases, it's a sign the guy is fragile and lessens his chances of a multi year deal from anybody. It's also a sign that he doesn't do enough leg stretching exercises before a game. The older you get, the more critical those exercises are for anybody doing any kind of running. That's based on my own experiences.

[jung]

Obviously I don't have any real information on this one way or other but I have often wondered if they generally do not do enough stretching. I was thinking about that when Ells tweaked something the other day just doing the usual pre-game light running....that to me sounded like a real odd time to tweak something...should have been just after having done some stretching...but maybe not....maybe they just do not do enough stretching among other things.

[jung]

I can believe that a guy could injure himself the way Ortiz injured himself. His foot did come of the bag rather oddly and that is how he got the injury. I have been waiting for Ortiz to incur some sort of leg injury running around the bases. He never needed to be running around the bases with that much abandon. He was never going to help the Sox that much overextending himself running. More times than not it has not worked out even when he has not gone off limping.

 

I can also see Ortiz pulling this s*** because he has already said and done some things that were kinda' silly. The "I was embarrassed and insulted" speech did not do him much good and pretty much backfired. The "this is my clubhouse'" speech was also ill advised I thought. He has been pretty relentless in pursuit of his own agenda as frankly most of them have been.

 

Honestly I think they are setting a record of misconduct, malfeasance, and self motivated ******** that is going to be tough to exceed outside of groups of players that constantly find themselves in the criminal courts. I seem to recall the Cincinnati Bengals going through a period like that. But, short of that sort of criminal behavior, this bunch really takes the cake. Makes you want to line them up on the first base line and rip the red sox logo shoulder patch right off their uniforms. Honest to God I have never seen anything quite like this. Sure we have instances of individual players throughout pro sports making total dicks of themselves but this is really something else again.It does seem to spread from one to the next which in all honesty you would expect when the group thought process has broken down and the individual agenda's are all that is left.

 

Under other circumstances, would you have expected Salty to make a comment like the one he just made? Ultimately I think they are likely to make wholesale changes shortly because this stuff is so out front now and it is so obvious that it is spreading like wildfire throughout that clubhouse.

 

It would not surprise me in the least if they kept some of the guys that they think would step back in line under better circumstances and dumped the rest. The only one I really worry about of that group is Pedey. You would expect him to step back in line under better circumstances but management may really hold that "we don't do things that way around here" comment against him. Granted they backed him and Youk vs V but that does not mean anything with this upper management group. This management group may simply not be willing to live with the media being able to position that comment against the performance of the team as in a never ending cacophony of "they sure showed us how they do things around here didn't they...look at the record." The only way to stem that tide will be to get the mouth that roared outta' here.

[DocHolliday]

I can believe that a guy could injure himself the way Ortiz injured himself. His foot did come of the bag rather oddly and that is how he got the injury. I have been waiting for Ortiz to incur some sort of leg injury running around the bases. He never needed to be running around the bases with that much abandon. He was never going to help the Sox that much overextending himself running. More times than not it has not worked out even when he has not gone off limping.

 

I can also see Ortiz pulling this s*** because he has already said and done some things that were kinda' silly. The "I was embarrassed and insulted" speech did not do him much good and pretty much backfired. The "this is my clubhouse'" speech was also ill advised I thought. He has been pretty relentless in pursuit of his own agenda as frankly most of them have been.

 

Honestly I think they are setting a record of misconduct, malfeasance, and self motivated ******** that is going to be tough to exceed outside of groups of players that constantly find themselves in the criminal courts. I seem to recall the Cincinnati Bengals going through a period like that. But, short of that sort of criminal behavior, this bunch really takes the cake. Makes you want to line them up on the first base line and rip the red sox logo shoulder patch right off their uniforms. Honest to God I have never seen anything quite like this. Sure we have instances of individual players throughout pro sports making total dicks of themselves but this is really something else again.It does seem to spread from one to the next which in all honesty you would expect when the group thought process has broken down and the individual agenda's are all that is left.

 

Under other circumstances, would you have expected Salty to make a comment like the one he just made? Ultimately I think they are likely to make wholesale changes shortly because this stuff is so out front now and it is so obvious that it is spreading like wildfire throughout that clubhouse.

 

It would not surprise me in the least if they kept some of the guys that they think would step back in line under better circumstances and dumped the rest. The only one I really worry about of that group is Pedey. You would expect him to step back in line under better circumstances but management may really hold that "we don't do things that way around here" comment against him. Granted they backed him and Youk vs V but that does not mean anything with this upper management group. This management group may simply not be willing to live with the media being able to position that comment against the performance of the team as in a never ending cacophony of "they sure showed us how they do things around here didn't they...look at the record." The only way to stem that tide will be to get the mouth that roared outta' here.

 

You bring up good points here about how this organization should be concerned with the image of their players- which should play a strong factor in how their entire brand is viewed. They have shown many times how conscious they are of their brand image when they ought to be addressing the image of their players.

 

In the past, all of these individual issues with the players didn't matter because the team consistently won on the field. I'm sure there were similar individual issues then that never made it to the public because the team was able to make things happen on the field. This is where Francona excelled in managing the personalities and agendas of all of these players.

 

This current player group has proven for the better part of 2 years that they do not have the capacity to have all of these issues and still produce on the field. Its been well documented how they quit on Francona and how they never gave V a chance.

 

The FO had 2 choices: bring in a new voice in hopes of changing the player views or get rid of the problem players themselves. Not only did they fail in fixing the clubhouse cancer, but they added to it by standing by said players and taking V's voice completely out of the equation. Not to mention the fact that they somehow believed that some of these players would completely change their philosophy.

[jung]

So what do we think folks....are we about to see the last few games of the V tenure? My guess is yes...that a couple of blowouts against the Rangers and V will be done and dusted.....for no other reason than it will give Sox Management a little more runway on keeping people coming to the games this time on the hope that getting rid of the manager will motivate these chumps to do something they have not done all year...play at all and/or play as a team. I don't think actually trying to win at all enters into the picture for Sox Management. If they do win a few more games fine but I don't think that will be the motivation for the firing.

 

I would say that it will come either after the second or third game with the Rangers...depending on how long it takes for the Sox to lose the Ranger series and possibly how lopsided the scores.

 

By the way I don't think it will do a damn thing. These guys have learned some bad habits from each other that are not going to unlearn quickly if at all if this group of players stays together. So I don't see anything coming of it but I really doubt V will last the Ranger series unless the Sox win two of three or sweep the Rangers....good luck with that one V.

[mvp 78]

He's here through October.

[SoxSport]

Valentine should quit. If he doesn't quit now, he surely will quit at the end of the season.

He's a wordy guy, and he has been eviscerated for every word he has said this year--not only by the media but his own players.

 

It was impossible for a new manager to come in and change the climate, with most of the rest of the organization left intact--and rigidly status quo. It was LL/Henry's great failure to recognize after last season.

 

This team has been allowed to get out of control, and I doubt any manager right now can fix it.

They will have to clean house higher up, and restore some discipline to the organization. I don't have any answers, but if I were the owner, I would be talking privately to outside consultants about what to do. I don't think the present management can resolve the situation.

[Elktonnick]

This was posted elsewhere but it doesn't come as a surprise to anyone. Lackey is the rat.

 

"98.5 The Sports Hub's Gary Tanguay revealed on Tocuher and Rich this morning that an anonymous Sox source has confirmed that John Lackey is the player who went to management over the comments Bobby V made to Will Middlebrooks. Tanguay also went on to say that his source has attributed much of the toxicity in the Sox clubhouse to Lackey's arrival starting in 2010."

[ibot2much]

No surprise there...except maybe surprise that anybody as useless as he has been for the RS would dare....and I guess he dared and continues to dare.

 

Just to see him sitting on the bench this year, laughing with JB, makes me gag. There is the scene in MONEYBALL when BB sees Giambi and a few others laughing and dancing in the locker room after some serious losses and he decides to dump them all to get the culture correct. I think of that when I see the two of them have a great time pulling in millions and doing nothing positive for the team....yet a hell of a lot negative.

 

There have been so many unlikable things about him since he arrived, but to picture him sneaking up the stairs with his Gomer Pyle face all serious becasue he has important news is the FINAL straw for that piece of crap

[ibot2much]

I suspect the other message Ortiz is trying to send (since I believe under the current CBA' date=' the Sox could not go the arb route again) is sign me to a two year deal now and maybe my rehab goes faster....suddenly my Achilles will feel so much better.[/quote']

 

Well maybe. He does want that contract really bad. I think that injury is going to prevent anybody from giving him much now. It may be chronic and he may not have two years left in him.