What do the Red Sox need to do to make the playoffs?

[Palodios]

In a conversation with reporters at a workout at Tropicana Field on Thursday evening, Cherington made clear he doesn't expect to be involved in trades for free agents-to-be like Greinke or Hamels -- especially at the cost of some of the organization's top prospects.

"We're not apt to give up young players who we like for a short amount of control, a true rental, especially in this new climate we're working in," Cherington told reporters

 

 

No Greinke. No Hamels. No Dempster. No Marcum. Maybe Garza.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I'm fine with no Hamels, no Grienke, but at the same time, this team needs 1 more pitcher right now. You have Lester Buchholz and Beckett, and then it goes to two guys who are on innings limits in Morales and Doubront. You need a guy like Garza to slot in and be a reliable #4 man.

 

A deal involving Cecchini should get talks started. Throw in a guy like Drake Britton, who struggled last year but has shown a nice turn around this year, or Brandon Workman, who is dominating in Salem (2.94 era) and you are probably right around a deal.

 

That's the kind of deal that doesn't crush the future and helps get you to the post season.

[User Name]

I misunderstand nothing. You essentially looked at one point at my post and ignored the major argument.

 

From 2008-2011, the Red Sox's farm system has produced Daniel Bard, who is in the minors, and Doubront. Exactly one prospect from that four year span is currently on the major league roster, and he's probably going to spend his career as a #4/#5 starter if he continues to have health problems.

 

I get it, the Red Sox trade prospects. But that's exactly my point. They shouldn't trade their prospects this time around, because they have a significant chunk of high draft picks that could very easily amount to something in the majors, and there is very little to gain by picking up a Hamels/Greinke.

 

Because that's the only point i wanted to argue. How is that a problem? And this point continues to show the faulty premise that makes your line of thinking incorrect. Just because a minor league isn't churning out players to the MLB level doesn't mean it's "in shambles" or "bad". This isn't something i'm making up either. Go take a look at some of the prospect and system rankings for the past 3-4 years and you'll see exactly what i'm saying here as a description for the Sox farm system: "Loaded with talent, but very young, need to wait until Sally League and A kids reach advanced Minors". I'm sorry, but the point is just plain wrong.

[Palodios]

Because that's the only point i wanted to argue. How is that a problem? And this point continues to show the faulty premise that makes your line of thinking incorrect. Just because a minor league isn't churning out players to the MLB level doesn't mean it's "in shambles" or "bad". This isn't something i'm making up either. Go take a look at some of the prospect and system rankings for the past 3-4 years and you'll see exactly what i'm saying here as a description for the Sox farm system: "Loaded with talent' date=' but very young, need to wait until Sally League and A kids reach advanced Minors". I'm sorry, but the point is just plain wrong.[/quote']

 

The problem is that you took what I said out of context. I was explicitly talking about the value of players churned out for the major league teams-- the very point that you're explicitly ignoring-- because I can see that this is the time for all of those guys to finally break the roster, and not the time for us to trade them away for a rental. I've also explicitly called out seven players that I think should stay within the organization-- which should tell you what I think about the current state of the farm system.

 

I'm insulted, because I'm sure at this point you should know by now that I have solid enough knowledge of the farm system to know where Hagadone, Masterson, Hanley, Sanchez, et all have come from, and the fact that Middlebrooks, Kelly, Westmoreland, Fuentes, and good number of others I can't think of off the top of my head were all high schools draftees.

 

My point is, I value debating with you. But this is a dumb thing to call out.

[Palodios]

I'm fine with no Hamels, no Grienke, but at the same time, this team needs 1 more pitcher right now. You have Lester Buchholz and Beckett, and then it goes to two guys who are on innings limits in Morales and Doubront. You need a guy like Garza to slot in and be a reliable #4 man.

 

A deal involving Cecchini should get talks started. Throw in a guy like Drake Britton, who struggled last year but has shown a nice turn around this year, or Brandon Workman, who is dominating in Salem (2.94 era) and you are probably right around a deal.

 

That's the kind of deal that doesn't crush the future and helps get you to the post season.

 

I just don't see Cecchini and Britton getting it done. Garza is worth more to the Cubs than Cecchini, IMO, and other teams would certainly be willing to beat that price.

[example1]

I just don't see Cecchini and Britton getting it done. Garza is worth more to the Cubs than Cecchini' date=' IMO, and other teams would certainly be willing to beat that price.[/quote']

 

A mid-rotation starter on a last place club is worth more to them than 3B with a very high ceiling and 6 full years of cost-control? I suspect Cecchini alone won't get it done, but that's only due to his distance from being major league ready and the throw in piece would be less than Britton... or at least it should be.

 

I think we can all acknowledge that Middlebrooks would be an overpay for Garza, yet Middlebrooks's highest OPS in his first 3 minor league years was .770, while Cecchini has a career minor league OPS is .850 with a .391 OBP in that time.

 

Cecchini is a better prospect currently than Middlebrooks was at the same age, he was a higher draft pick (4th vs. 5th round) and Theo gave him a better signing bonus.

 

Looking at it this way, I think Cecchini would be a stupid piece to trade in a deal like this. He's probably on that border of being untouchable.

[jung]

I don't think Sox Management is going to bet much on trying to pull this season together. I would expect some trades for show and thats about it. I know we would like them to bet on Lester and Beckett returning to form but both will have to show real signs of that before the deadline I think for the Sox to be willing to pull the trigger on a real deal of some sort. Betting on both of them doing that is about the same thing as rolling a pair of dice.

[Spitball]

I don't think Sox Management is going to bet much on trying to pull this season together. I would expect some trades for show and thats about it. I know we would like them to bet on Lester and Beckett returning to form but both will have to show real signs of that before the deadline I think for the Sox to be willing to pull the trigger on a real deal of some sort. Betting on both of them doing that is about the same thing as rolling a pair of dice.

 

The Red Sox are 1.5 games out of the second Wild Card spot. Ellsbury, Crawford, and Buchholz are back. I bet the management definitely will try to pull this season together.

 

That said, I wouldn't expect too many teams contending for only the Wild Card to be sending top prospects away in trades.

[jung]

Well like I said, I do expect some deals or at the least a deal but any deal for pitching will likely involve multiple players and at least one prospect that will hurt to give up.

 

I think that is about as far as the Sox are going to go for what its worth or they will offload players that represent multiple assets that are birds of a feather such as back up outfielders with teams doing something like the same thing....moving assets that are for all intents blocked from making a meaningful contribution to their current teams.

 

The problem in my view is that the two WC system really makes things rough on the team that comes out of the one game play-in. So how much do you risk to get in that way. I just think the whole thing was a bad idea.

 

I don't believe they should try to make things tough on the WC team. When there was only one WC team that team often had a better record than one of the division winners. In my view the one WC team deserved its shot and its post season birth especially since it often could have won a division if it were simply playing in an easier division.

 

Now one of the two play-in teams probably does not deserve to be there at all and that is baseball's justification for making it tough on either WC team to move forward from the play-in game. Think about that for a minute and you realize the stupidity and lack of logical basis for the two WC team system.

 

They had a good system and if they have any brains at all, they will dump this two WC team system as quickly as they can and go back to one WC team.

[User Name]

The problem is that you took what I said out of context. I was explicitly talking about the value of players churned out for the major league teams-- the very point that you're explicitly ignoring-- because I can see that this is the time for all of those guys to finally break the roster, and not the time for us to trade them away for a rental. I've also explicitly called out seven players that I think should stay within the organization-- which should tell you what I think about the current state of the farm system.

 

I'm insulted, because I'm sure at this point you should know by now that I have solid enough knowledge of the farm system to know where Hagadone, Masterson, Hanley, Sanchez, et all have come from, and the fact that Middlebrooks, Kelly, Westmoreland, Fuentes, and good number of others I can't think of off the top of my head were all high schools draftees.

 

My point is, I value debating with you. But this is a dumb thing to call out.

 

I didn't take anything out of context, and it wasn't a dumb thing to call out. You made a sweeping criticism about the state of the Red Sox farm system which i thought to be incorrect. That's about as big as it gets.

[SoxSport]

What they need to do is to say a Noveena that Baltimore and Toronto collapse in August.

[SouthieFanatic]

How much truth do the King Felix rumors have to them? I'm starting to hear alot more about it lately, so i'm hoping theres something to it. Cherington better not even think about moving Bradley or Bogaerts for him though

[SoxFanForsyth]

karl ravech ‏@karlravechespn

watching rangers and mariners play..seattle needs so much help..i would propose deal of Lester, Iglesias, Kalish, maybe one more for Felix

 

I would pull the trigger on that deal so fast it would be ridiculous.

[Palodios]

I didn't take anything out of context' date=' and it wasn't a dumb thing to call out. You made a sweeping criticism about the state of the Red Sox farm system which i thought to be incorrect. That's about as big as it gets.[/quote']

 

It was a sweeping criticism laced with context. Anyone who read the post could have known what I meant. But I've had enough of this.

[User Name]

I would pull the trigger on that deal so fast it would be ridiculous.

 

Agreed

[2004 ALCS]

At least two quality starting pitchers and probably a reliever or two to step in for our current relievers who will inevitably burn out due to the current ineptitude of our rotation.

[2004 ALCS]

I would pull the trigger on that deal so fast it would be ridiculous.

 

There's no way in hell Seattle would make that deal. If the Red Sox were to acquire Felix, the Mariners would ask for two of Middlebrooks, Bradley, Barnes or Bogaerts as a starting point.

[ellsburyforMVP]

There's no way in hell Seattle would make that deal. If the Red Sox were to acquire Felix' date=' the Mariners would ask for two of Middlebrooks, Bradley, Barnes or Bogaerts as a starting point.[/quote']

 

Drugs are bad kid

[2004 ALCS]

Drugs are bad kid

 

Drugs have nothing on wishful thinking.

[ellsburyforMVP]

Drugs have nothing on wishful thinking.

 

To say that 3 top 100 prospects and 2 of WMB ( who probably every team in MLB covets right now ) is only a starting point to a deal ( which leads me to believe that you think ellsbury and Lester/Beckett would need to be included ) means you are on drugs in my opinion

[2004 ALCS]

To say that 3 top 100 prospects and 2 of WMB ( who probably every team in MLB covets right now ) is only a starting point to a deal ( which leads me to believe that you think ellsbury and Lester/Beckett would need to be included ) means you are on drugs in my opinion

 

Not to be rude, but to think that a rebuilding franchise such as Seattle would have any interest in someone such as Ellsbury who is no longer cheap or under contract for more than a year and 2 months, is rather naive. For one of the best pitchers of our generation, Seattle will no doubt want at least two of our best young players who will be under contract for multiple years.

 

If you disagree, please point out the last time a pitcher of a similar caliber, who was still under contract for multiple years was dealt to a rebuilding team for anything less than 2 of the other team's two best young players.

[Palodios]

Not to be rude' date=' but to think that a rebuilding franchise such as Seattle would have any interest in someone such as Ellsbury ....[/quote']

 

Three team trade. I swear, I have to bring up that point far too often:lol:

[2004 ALCS]

Three team trade. I swear' date=' I have to bring up that point far too often:lol:[/quote']

 

Much easier said than done.

[Palodios]

Much easier said than done.

 

--Hey Pirates GM, how are you?

 

--Great Ben, our team is actually winning for once. What's up?

 

--I'm selling on Ellsbury, can you give me three good prospects for him?

 

--Three is tough Ben. I can do two.

 

--Works for me. Can you send them to Seattle for Felix?

 

 

 

Doesn't seem all that complicated to me.

[2004 ALCS]

--Hey Pirates GM' date=' how are you?[/i']

 

--Great Ben, our team is actually winning for once. What's up?

 

--I'm selling on Ellsbury, can you give me three good prospects for him?

 

--Three is tough Ben. I can do two.

 

--Works for me. Can you send them to Seattle for Felix?

 

 

 

Doesn't seem all that complicated to me.

 

I think you've watched too much Money Ball or that was a joke. I'd bet that leaked proposed three team trades FAR outweigh actual acted upon three team trades.

 

How many three team trades can you name that involved a pitcher of the caliber of Felix who was under contract for multiple years?

[ellsburyforMVP]

I think you've watched too much Money Ball or that was a joke. I'd bet that leaked proposed three team trades FAR outweigh actual acted upon three team trades.

 

How many three team trades can you name that involved a pitcher of the caliber of Felix who was under contract for multiple years?

 

To think that any team in baseball would flat out " not want " ellsbury is absurd.... He's the type of guy you WANT to rebuild around?

[iortiz]

--Hey Pirates GM' date=' how are you?[/i']

 

--Great Ben, our team is actually winning for once. What's up?

 

--I'm selling on Ellsbury, can you give me three good prospects for him?

 

--Three is tough Ben. I can do two.

 

--Works for me. Can you send them to Seattle for Felix?

 

 

 

Doesn't seem all that complicated to me.

 

Remember Pal, This is rocket science.

 

Ben, Move!

[Palodios]

I think you've watched too much Money Ball or that was a joke. I'd bet that leaked proposed three team trades FAR outweigh actual acted upon three team trades.

 

How many three team trades can you name that involved a pitcher of the caliber of Felix who was under contract for multiple years?

 

I can name a three team trade that involved two pitchers of Felix's caliber, which I think should be worth more.

[SouthieFanatic]

To think that any team in baseball would flat out " not want " ellsbury is absurd.... He's the type of guy you WANT to rebuild around?

 

I don't think teams would say no to Ellsbury, but you have to be on the field to rebuild around a player. I'm so ready to unload him and his contract that i'm counting the days til Bradley takes CF in Fenway

[Palodios]

I think you've watched too much Money Ball or that was a joke. I'd bet that leaked proposed three team trades FAR outweigh actual acted upon three team trades.

 

How many three team trades can you name that involved a pitcher of the caliber of Felix who was under contract for multiple years?

 

On a serious note-- there are guys that all of baseball watches. Can't miss guys. Strasburg,Verlander, Kemp, etc etc. Every team in baseball will want Ellsbury-- all they need to do is get the medical reports together.