What do the Red Sox need to do to make the playoffs?

[example1]

Ben's bad decisions:

 

--moving Bard to starter; V wanted him in the BP

 

Easy call in hindsight, many good baseball minds missed this one.

 

 

--trading for Bailey instead of Gio G. He could have had either, but not both.

 

Their asking prices weren't the same. Do you know what the A's wanted for Gio?

 

--not making Iglesias the starting SS from the start. His defense would have helped the pitching. Again, against the wishes of V, from reports.

 

Conjecture. Aviles is near the team lead in RBI and fangraphs has him as the second most valuable player on the team this year, behind Ortiz.

 

--not bringing up Lavarnway. Nothing like learning on the job. Right, Salty?

 

Obviously this can be disputed. Perhaps you should find the other half of Sox fans who think Saltalamacchia deserved to be on the All-Star team and see whose argument wins the day. You both have good points, but as long as there is viable disagreement I can see why you would stick with Saltalamacchia.

 

 

Lucchino's bad decisions:

 

--For making the manager search public, which revealed differences with the FO

 

--For letting the FO control personnel after he hired Valentine.

 

--For maintaining the status quo and not changing the culture.

 

I'm confused... is the problem with this team its pitching (especially Lester and Beckett, who weren't going to be replaced) or the culture?

 

Lucchino, more than anyone else, is responsible for the management conflicts on the Red Sox, which could be affecting team performance.

 

Insofar as LL was responsible for Valentine, yes, he bears responsibilitiy. I think there are plenty of managers who could have come in and earned the players trust. Bobby V doesn't seem to have done that. He's a likable enough guy but I'm not sure the experiment is working.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Would not be at all surprised if the Sox dealt Cecchini (.309/.389/.444, 23 doubles, 30 SB) plus Lavarnway for Garza.

 

Could very well be the piece that pushes them over the hump this year. Would make the rotation solid.

 

Also, thinking out loud, why not a Lester for Justin Upton trade? Lester is under control for 3.5 years at a total of 35mm. Young, cost controlled SP. the deal would make sense, especially now that Gammons has come out and said Lester isn't happy in Boston.

[jung]

Garza would make the rotation better. They have pitched so poorly that I just don't think you can assume that the addition of Garza would make it solid.

 

Lester is not happy in Boston....good for him...Boston is not happy with Lester.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Garza would make the rotation better. They have pitched so poorly that I just don't think you can assume that the addition of Garza would make it solid.

 

Lester is not happy in Boston....good for him...Boston is not happy with Lester.

 

True but I think the underperformance does not continue.

[example1]

Would not be at all surprised if the Sox dealt Cecchini (.309/.389/.444, 23 doubles, 30 SB ) plus Lavarnway for Garza.

 

Could very well be the piece that pushes them over the hump this year. Would make the rotation solid.

 

I just don't see Garza being the answer, unless they lose Beckett or something. He has the potential to slide right into the "better than average but not good enough" category. He has a 92 ERA+ right now, though his WHIP is good.

 

A couple things with Garza:

* I like his toughness and he's not as douchy as Lackey

* I don't think the Sox would be able to afford an extension unless they move another pitcher. He's a FA before the 2014 season, which unfortunately is the season before Lackey, Beckett and Lester are all FA's. Not a great fit.

* If he doesn't push them over the top (solidly make the playoffs after playing .650+ ball the 2nd half) then he's basically a waste of a prospect, IMO.

 

Also, I gagged a bit when I read Cecchini and Lavarnway. Think about how much those guys could contribute for the Sox over their 6 owned seasons. Cecchini could be getting the same type of hype that Middlebrooks is getting right now. His power will develop, he's got a good eye, better speed and is a good athlete, etc.,

[SemperFi Sox]

Garza is nothing special, hope we would never give up anything significant for him.

[a700hitter]

Garza is just another #2/3 guy OMO. We have enough of those. We need an ace. If we are going to go for a #2/3 guy, they should go for Dempster. He'll be much cheaper than Garza.

[example1]

The thing is, though (to partially counter my own argument above) what the Sox really need is #2/#3s who pitching like f***ing #2/#3s on competitive teams. If they had 5 guys pitching like #2/#3s right now they would at least be in 2nd place. Instead they have s***, s***, s***, Mediocre, Mediocre. It would be much better to have Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. If they think that Garza can be decent and give quality innings and keep them in games and not give up 4 runs in the first inning, then perhaps I would be okay with it... assuming there's no prospects I'm attached to who go back in the deal (fat chance).

[jung]

E1, I would have agreed with you at one point. I commented at the start of the season that we really did not have any leadership on the rotation but we had a 2 a 2 a 3 a 4 and maybe a 5. I guess I would concede that maybe another 2 that pitched like a 2 would have a positive impact this season but in truth this rotation needs a leader, someone that a) wants the job and can do the job.

 

Lester could not do the job, can't do the job and will likely never be successful in that position. As much as he protests that he is a "full grown man" he is in fact an overgrown child. That is OK. As long as he pitches OK, I have no problem with his inability to fit into a leadership role. I even don't mind his protestations that he is not a follower. It just does not matter as long as we do not saddle him with the actual responsibility of leading that rotation. I don't want to hear about his beating cancer as proof of his toughness and leadership potential. You want to see people beating cancer with courage. Go visit Children's Hospital.

 

Beckett does not make any bones about not wanting the job. Heck I don't think he wants to be here at all, never mind lead here.

 

In truth the leadership vacuum in that rotation is what allows idiots like Lackey to have so much influence. It is what allows Beckett to have undo influence and allows him to twist that place in knots if he wants to. Ultimately it is what allows Lester to feel like he can go off and have one of his little temper tantrums anytime he wants to.

 

I am tired of people making excuses for that sort of s*** suggesting that he is entitled to his outbursts because some umpire missed a call or some player playing behind him missed a play or because he did not get run support. That is ********...just ********. If anybody thinks being allowed to go off like that is actually good for Lester, they are wrong. It is not good for him at all.

 

That rotation desperately needs a leader. Somebody to look up to...somebody they can look to so that they can see how they should react to bad calls, how they should react to a bad play behind them, how they should react to any number of things. They clearly need somebody that sets an example for how to prepare for your starts because in truth they don't have anybody worth a crap in that regard either.

 

So maybe they can get away with somebody that is just another pitcher that pitches like a 2 but I am afraid that with as much of a leadership vacuum as exists in that rotation, it just won't matter because the other guys around the new guy are not, IMO going to pitch to their career numbers, are not going to come around because they have to much going against them....much of it of their own making but to much none the less.

 

Beckett is not going to come around because he is just not interested in coming around and ends up messing around for an inning or two before he finally settles in. Lester is not going to come around because he simply has lost focus and also does not come out prepared to pitch when his day comes up in the rotation. This whole story about V and McClure trying to figure this out makes me laugh. These guys are not ready to pitch on their given day. They are not doing their homework, they are not preparing themselves physically and the result is these first inning blowups. There is no mystery to why pitchers pitch poorly in the early innings. Early innings are tough for starters to begin with but if you are not prepared, physically and mentally you get what we get...runs aplenty.

 

Again for me this is a matter of leadership. Beckett know how to prepare for starts but he just does not give a s*** anymore. Lester probably once did it out of fear of his pitching coach but that guy is gone and there is nobody in the current rotation for him or any other starter to point to in that regard. We should just be happy that he is still going to give us innings this year as I suspect that will be the one place that he will once again meet his career numbers.

 

Buch will likely pitch better than the other two guys when he is out there but Buch is clearly still somebody that you really can't trust to go a whole season without missing starts. Does not matter to me that it is a different reason every time just like it does not matter to me that it is a different reason for Bailey every time.

 

So yes E1 I might have agreed with you at one point but now I fear that another arm in that rotation will be a waste of prospects if we have to give prospects for him unless the head attached to that arm is a leaders head and I just don't think you can get that at the trading deadline.

[redsoxbeatz]

What are the Red Sox to do with another 3b in Cecchini? It's not like they are going to sit WMB.

[example1]

Try to move him to the OF? Wait 3 years until he's ready for Boston and assess where Middlebrooks is then?

[example1]

Jung, your post boils down to the rotation needing a leader. They need a leader who can also perform.

 

What they need, then, is an ace. As noted in other threads, aces come to teams in one of three ways generally:

 

1. Drafted

2. Traded for explicitly (targeted, willingness to overpay if needed, throwing prospects and caution to the wind)

3. Signed as a FA

 

There simply aren't many guys in the top tier of pitchers who were acquired in other ways (such as: picked up off scrap heap, traded for as smaller part of bigger deal, etc.,)

 

We have effectively said that #3 is a dangerous road to go down.

#2 is rarely possible: Greinke, Halladay, Haren are examples, but who is the next available ace caliber pitcher who wouldn't need to be signed at a FA-sized contract very soon afterward? Can't think of one.

#1 takes a long time. Matt Barnes is the next possiblity for the Sox, but he won't be contributing until 2014 IMO.

 

So while we wait for the next golden arm/golden opportunity, they have the choice of sitting around and essentially wasting the prime years of some pretty special/expensive players, or looking for some good #2s who might make them a decent enough team to contend now. For the right price, I'd be okay with making those moves. Just don't trade young pitching.

[jung]

Trying to acquire pitching even without the leadership mantle is inherently costly at the trade deadline. That will be doubly true this year with other teams able to look at their performance to date and feel it justifies the investment. I would be willing to accept them bringing in a 2 that pitches like a 2 if the cost is low as I simply do not think it will bear any fruit this year for the reasons stated above. Without resolving the leadership issues the pitchers we already have are not going to come around in my view and 1 more arm becomes just that, one more arm, not a means to an end for this year. I would have bought into and in fact did buy into the notion that one more arm without a leadership head attached to it might have done something before the leadership hole for the starting pitchers became an abyss, not just a small tear.

 

If they can get somebody without touching any of the prime prospects then fine....if not, I would wait till next year and either pursue an Ace or pursue an arm or pursue both hoping to land one or the other.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Luchhino sent out an email and said the Red Sox will be aggressive at the trade deadline, as long as it makes sense. Lucchino always gives out the real plan, whereas the GM, be it Theo or Cherington always hides it. Look at the 2011 offseason. Theo was very hidden about their plans, saying they weren't looking for big players just complimentary, that getting healthy was the biggest thing. Then Lucchino came on the radio and said they were going to make a big trade and make a big signing that offseason. Then the Sox got Gonzo and Crawford.

 

Gotta wonder if Lucchino is thinking Hamels or Grienke. Even Garza would be a big boost.

[User Name]

With Hamels, the Red Sox would immediately become a serious threat to not only make the playoffs, but to venture deep into it. But at what price?

[Palodios]

Luchhino sent out an email and said the Red Sox will be aggressive at the trade deadline, as long as it makes sense. Lucchino always gives out the real plan, whereas the GM, be it Theo or Cherington always hides it. Look at the 2011 offseason. Theo was very hidden about their plans, saying they weren't looking for big players just complimentary, that getting healthy was the biggest thing. Then Lucchino came on the radio and said they were going to make a big trade and make a big signing that offseason. Then the Sox got Gonzo and Crawford.

 

Gotta wonder if Lucchino is thinking Hamels or Grienke. Even Garza would be a big boost.

 

If this team's stars perform, what difference would one of those pitchers make? If two of this team's big pitchers start pitching like aces, they'll make it into that wild card spot. If they don't, Hamels or Greinke isn't going to help. None of those arms are going to win them the division.

 

At this point, the team is in shambles, and their farm system has been worthless for a very long time. Trading any of the Ryans or the Killer B's would be a huge mistake. The team's best interest is to see what they've got for the next month, and then go bargain hunting for a #3 starter if necessary with guys like Pimental, Coyle, or Lars Anderson.

 

One more time, trading the Ryans or the Killer B's would be a huge mistake.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Alex Wilson is showing his stuff down in AAA right now. He could be Bard 2.0. 2.54 ERA in 39 relief innings, and a 1.96 era in his last 10 appearances. He's also got a 9.0 K/9 as a RP.

 

If Bard can get his s*** together, Melancon Miller Padilla Aceves Wilson Bard Bailey could be a filthy, filthy bullpen.

[a700hitter]

Alex Wilson is showing his stuff down in AAA right now. He could be Bard 2.0. 2.54 ERA in 39 relief innings, and a 1.96 era in his last 10 appearances. He's also got a 9.0 K/9 as a RP.

 

If Bard can get his s*** together, Melancon Miller Padilla Aceves Wilson Bard Bailey could be a filthy, filthy bullpen.

Bard walked a guy and hit a guy tonight including 2 wild pitches.

[ellsburyforMVP]

Bard walked a guy and hit a guy tonight including 2 wild pitches.

 

I love how the FO messed up ( maybe for good? ) one of the best/if not the best setup man in baseball..... And 3/4 of the forum went along with it

[SCM33]

I love how the FO messed up ( maybe for good? ) one of the best/if not the best setup man in baseball..... And 3/4 of the forum went along with it

 

I'm not sure everyone went for it. I know I was against it. I actually wanted Aceves to start of the two.

[a700hitter]

I love how the FO messed up ( maybe for good? ) one of the best/if not the best setup man in baseball..... And 3/4 of the forum went along with it

I'm not quite sure what you love about this, nor do I have the slightest idea of the significance of the opinions on this forum in the outcome. What are you talking about?

[a700hitter]

I doubt the Phillies will move Hamels at the trading deadline.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8162263/philadelphia-phillies-preparing-sizable-offer-cole-hamels

[jung]

Some one of these days it might dawn on folks what Bard actually is., a pitcher that has been on again off again in some state of repair or disrepair....pitch from the stretch, pitch from the windup, find his release point...blah blah blah.....for an entire career. The Sox keep trying to scratch his itch because he could through hard....all be it without having any idea where the ball was going.

 

As for best set up man....elite set up man....its a fallacy....a creation of the players association in its never ending effort to increase salaries....lets see, if a regular set up man is worth X then an elite set up man is worth X+.....its ********. Pitchers settle into a role and that is that....as far as I can tell, set up men are guys with 9th inning arms and babe ruth league heads....sort of sounds just like Bard.

 

Have you ever noticed that set up men usually don't stay set up men for long? They either fall off into middle relief or become closers and surprise surprise, the Sox diverted Bard from a path toward closing....Gee I wonder why!

[Laser Show]

Did we create Rick Ankiel 2.0? Sans outfield potential of course.

[jung]

I don't think the Sox really "created" anything in Bard. They tried to find him a place in baseball where his velocity, the one asset he had could return the most value. Once they decided he was not destined to close, the question of how to unlock the value in that velocity became more complicated.Maybe they will figure it out....maybe they won't...maybe Bard will continue in baseball...maybe he will be a memory on a year or two....who knows.

[User Name]

If this team's stars perform, what difference would one of those pitchers make? If two of this team's big pitchers start pitching like aces, they'll make it into that wild card spot. If they don't, Hamels or Greinke isn't going to help. None of those arms are going to win them the division.

 

At this point, the team is in shambles, and their farm system has been worthless for a very long time. Trading any of the Ryans or the Killer B's would be a huge mistake. The team's best interest is to see what they've got for the next month, and then go bargain hunting for a #3 starter if necessary with guys like Pimental, Coyle, or Lars Anderson.

 

One more time, trading the Ryans or the Killer B's would be a huge mistake.

 

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Red Sox farm system. It's been bottom-heavy for a while because of all the high-potential HS draftees, but it has (and had, at the not-too-distant past) lots of desirable pieces, as evidenced by the A-Gonz trade.

[example1]

Yeah, in terms of depth the farm system isn't the problem. Somehow they haven't been able to produce pitching like other teams do of late, but their positional depth is really quite good moving forward.

[jung]

I don't think the farm system is in shambles...I do think that some of the guys down on the farm could have and in other organizations likely wold have been handled differently and I do wish the Sox had been less willing to trade away pitching prospects as opposed to bringing them along, ultimately bringing them up.

 

What is done is done though. Maybe what was lacking was a little more faith in the farm system they had built combined with a willingness to accept that just because a player you are developing is not destined for the all star team does not mean he is a failure and won't either contribute to your team as a player or have more value as a trade chip having proven himself at the major league level.

 

Considering they have really not been picking at the neat end of the draft it seems to me that the Sox have had and do have a fair number of good players down on the farm. Maybe the real key to the Sox future success is not in trying to use their assets to out Yankee the Yankees but to use their assets to out Ray the Rays just to use an example. Clearly the Sox have the assets to support a healthy farm system, one that can be turning out ML players like an assembly line.

 

Now would that be fun or what....watching Sox teams full of young budding stars running circles around Yankee teams full of old codgers, overpaid and on their last legs.....its enough to warm your heart on the coldest hot stove league New England winter night.

[a700hitter]

Yeah' date=' in terms of depth the farm system isn't the problem. Somehow they haven't been able to produce pitching like other teams do of late, but their positional depth is really quite good moving forward.[/quote']That's the same old story for the Red Sox organization for 40+ years. They can bring tons of talent to the majors in the form of postional players. They develop very few pitchers and even fewer catchers. I think they have drafted and developed 2 good major league catchers in the last 45 years.

[Palodios]

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Red Sox farm system. It's been bottom-heavy for a while because of all the high-potential HS draftees' date=' but it has (and had, at the not-too-distant past) lots of desirable pieces, as evidenced by the A-Gonz trade.[/quote']

 

I misunderstand nothing. You essentially looked at one point at my post and ignored the major argument.

 

From 2008-2011, the Red Sox's farm system has produced Daniel Bard, who is in the minors, and Doubront. Exactly one prospect from that four year span is currently on the major league roster, and he's probably going to spend his career as a #4/#5 starter if he continues to have health problems.

 

I get it, the Red Sox trade prospects. But that's exactly my point. They shouldn't trade their prospects this time around, because they have a significant chunk of high draft picks that could very easily amount to something in the majors, and there is very little to gain by picking up a Hamels/Greinke.