The Youkilis Delusion?

[FredLynn]

As for Elktonnick, his response to being presented with statistical evidence was to dismiss it because... well, because it works against him. He's ignoring evidence to cling to a gut feeling.

 

Yet you are basing your opinion that he can still hit on gut feelings as well. Right now, there is no statistical evidence that he is remotely like the Youk of a year ago. Also, you are saying, if I understand you, that he fell off a cliff last year because he was injured. That isn't exactly denying that he fell off a cliff, its giving what you feel is the reason he fell off a cliff. Maybe he just can't stay healthy playing 3B. All I know is that his numbers are hideous for almost a year and he has given me no objective reason to think that he is ever going to be productive again. This year he has 136 PAs and he is .231/.681. Its not like its 20ABs; its well over 100. Put that together with what he did last year and MY gut feeling is that he is not going to contribute in any significant way. At one point you have to give WMB a try. When is that, in your opinion?

[evilhand]

The problem is that you're arguing for a change from his baseline performance and are expecting me to accept it when there is no evidence to support that claim. I'm arguing that he's been injured rather than lost a step (or more) and that if healthy, will continue to perform like the guy he proved he was over the previous 3.5 years before getting hurt last year.

 

I'm arguing that until there is evidence that his baseline has dropped, assuming it has is jumping the gun. You're arguing that because he's played poorly while hurt, he must have lost the ability to play well, even when healthy.

 

That simply doesn't track, and it's not how analysis of any kind is done. In fact, applying the scientific method to this, we are left to conclude that at worst, we need to wait and see how he responds to being healthy again over a large enough sample size to provide a meaningful data set, which... again... means he needs to play.

 

In short, you're making the claim that he's changed as a player for the worse, even when healthy. Then you're telling me to prove that's not true rather than doing something to prove it is true. The problem is that you can't prove it's true because there is no data to draw from. Going back to before he was hurt we have data that shows him being an elite bat. Since then, there simply isn't a large enough sample size of healthy play to say anything at all.

 

So I'm going to continue operating under the assumption that he's an elite bat when healthy until he proves otherwise. You may be comfortable jumping ship without any evidence... but I'm going to point out that you have no evidence if you do.

 

When claims like he will only hurt the team and his value by playing get tossed out there, they need to be confronted and debunked. They're not based on anything but a dislike for the player and do nothing to further our understanding of the team or this season.

[jung]

I think Youk has clearly showed improvement since coming back off the DL if we are comparing the period from the start of the season to the DL stint to the period since the DL stint.

 

At least from what I was seeing, I think he was showing some signs of have lost some quickness at the plate before the DL stint and he seemed to be having more difficulty seeing the slider on the outer edge than he has had in the past. He was really taking some poor swings at sliders from RH pitchers earlier this season. Sure he still has trouble hitting the slider but he is no longer taking poor cuts at balls that are way off the outer edge of the plate.

 

I think Youk has already showed enough for people to believe he is still a very good hitter at this point. I think people want to see that he can play every day as once a player has developed issues with his back, you worry that he just moves the wrong way one day and bang, he is back on the DL.

 

Since teams do not seem to feel like they have to take a desperation stab at Youk at this point they appear content to wait but they have to be getting more comfortable with his ability to stay on the field the longer he stays on the field.

[jung]

I think Youk has clearly showed improvement since coming back off the DL if we are comparing the period from the start of the season to the DL stint to the period since the DL stint.

 

At least from what I was seeing, I think he was showing some signs of have lost some quickness at the plate before the DL stint and he seemed to be having more difficulty seeing the slider on the outer edge than he has had in the past. He was really taking some poor swings at sliders from RH pitchers earlier this season. Sure he still has trouble hitting the slider but he is no longer taking poor cuts at balls that are way off the outer edge of the plate.

 

I think Youk has already showed enough for people to believe he is still a very good hitter at this point. I think people want to see that he can play every day as once a player has developed issues with his back, you worry that he just moves the wrong way one day and bang, he is back on the DL.

 

Since teams do not seem to feel like they have to take a desperation stab at Youk at this point they appear content to wait but they have to be getting more comfortable with his ability to stay on the field the longer he stays on the field.

[FredLynn]

The problem is that you're arguing for a change from his baseline performance and are expecting me to accept it when there is no evidence to support that claim. I'm arguing that he's been injured rather than lost a step (or more) and that if healthy, will continue to perform like the guy he proved he was over the previous 3.5 years before getting hurt last year.

 

I'm arguing that until there is evidence that his baseline has dropped, assuming it has is jumping the gun. You're arguing that because he's played poorly while hurt, he must have lost the ability to play well, even when healthy.

 

That simply doesn't track, and it's not how analysis of any kind is done. In fact, applying the scientific method to this, we are left to conclude that at worst, we need to wait and see how he responds to being healthy again over a large enough sample size to provide a meaningful data set, which... again... means he needs to play.

 

In short, you're making the claim that he's changed as a player for the worse, even when healthy. Then you're telling me to prove that's not true rather than doing something to prove it is true. The problem is that you can't prove it's true because there is no data to draw from. Going back to before he was hurt we have data that shows him being an elite bat. Since then, there simply isn't a large enough sample size of healthy play to say anything at all.

 

So I'm going to continue operating under the assumption that he's an elite bat when healthy until he proves otherwise. You may be comfortable jumping ship without any evidence... but I'm going to point out that you have no evidence if you do.

 

When claims like he will only hurt the team and his value by playing get tossed out there, they need to be confronted and debunked. They're not based on anything but a dislike for the player and do nothing to further our understanding of the team or this season.

 

How Youkilis will perform over the next 3 1/2 months is anyone's guess. You base your opinion on his career record, and I am basing mine on more recent history, the last 11 months. Neither of us can claim to be right until Oct 1. Therefore, you cannot categorically reject claims by me and by Nick that it is our opinion that Youkilis is likely finished as a major player. We can revisit this in October and only then see whose opinion (because thats what it is) proves right.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes and we have two of those types on this thread, one who can't help himself since he is part of that horse dung board where every day is a skip over the yellow brick road and pollyanna reigns supreme. Half the guys there don't know s*** about the game and the other half that do deny reality into believing that black is white. The other guy should know better. We call it Yawkeyism over on the o ther one we post on and to me that mindset of protecting and nurturing the sacred cows on our team is alive and well in 2012.

 

Youkilis has to go so we can start rebuilding at the same time we finally put our best players on the field.

 

Fred, you have a tendency to not read other people's posts very carefully and also, for your own convenience, you tend to lump people together as if they have identical views even if they don't.

 

So let me clarify something. My argument is not with Youkilis being traded. I have said that he should be traded to make way for WMB. My argument with Nick was that I don't think Cherington is an 'incompetent fool' who made a 'huge blunder' for not trading Youkilis this past offseason (rather than before the July/12 trade deadline). I also don't accept that Youkilis is a clubhouse cancer because some writers say he is. That's about it.

[Elktonnick]

Fred, you have a tendency to not read other people's posts very carefully and also, for your own convenience, you tend to lump people together as if they have identical views even if they don't.

 

So let me clarify something. My argument is not with Youkilis being traded. I have said that he should be traded to make way for WMB. My argument with Nick was that I don't think Cherington is an 'incompetent fool' who made a 'huge blunder' for not trading Youkilis this past offseason (rather than before the July/12 trade deadline). I also don't accept that Youkilis is a clubhouse cancer because some writers say he is. That's about it.

 

BTW that isn't the only reason Cherrington is an incompetent fool. He fouled up virtually the entire off season. What does he expect to get for Youklis now that he wouldn't have gotten in the off season? The best he is likely to get is a prospect. It is doubtful that he'll get anything that will help this team right now. So instead of playing Middlebrooks he is playing a guy who is withering before our very eyes or he has a gold glove first baseman struggling at the plate running around right field.

 

You don't believe Jackie Mac: "he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment." Her exact words. Heck her article is full of corroborative detail and she only won the Curt Gowdy Award. But that's okay in Halifax Nova Scotia you probably have more access to these players than do the Boston sports media. Some of whom travel with the club daily. If it gives you comfort to believe what you do then go with it.

[SoxSport]

BTW that isn't the only reason Cherrington is an incompetent fool. He fouled up virtually the entire off season. What does he expect to get for Youklis now that he wouldn't have gotten in the off season? The best he is likely to get is a prospect. It is doubtful that he'll get anything that will help this team right now. So instead of playing Middlebrooks he is playing a guy who is withering before our very eyes or he has a gold glove first baseman struggling at the plate running around right field.

 

You don't believe Jackie Mac: "he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment." Her exact words. Heck her article is full of corroborative detail and she only won the Curt Gowdy Award. But that's okay in Halifax Nova Scotia you probably have more access to these players than do the Boston sports media. Some of whom travel with the club daily. If it gives you comfort to believe what you do then go with it.

 

Let's keep in mind that the Sox had a big management shakeup in the offseason and a conflict about whether the new GM should pick the manager. Plus Henry turned off the money. It was a difficult situation for the FO, but Cherington exascerbated the problem by trading for a closer (Bailey) instead of a starter (Gio G.) because he had a bug up his ass wanting to start Bard. That has blown up in his face on two counts. He also had another bug about Iglesias and Lav needing more "experience". I think he was wrong there, too. Too bad V didn't have more of a say on the matter, but that was Henry/Lucchino's fault.

 

As for Jackie whatnot, that was a dagger effort designed to get her promoted--maybe. Youks did not get a fair shake there. His opinions are probably shared by a few other players. It's a good argument for keeping women out of the clubhouse.

[mvp 78]

GM1: Hey I got an injured player to trade you.

 

GM2: F off.

 

Youk wasn't getting traded in the offseason.

[jung]

I could be wrong about this but WMB up and Youk gone may not have happened in the off season for the same reason it rarely has happened around here in other off seasons. It seems to me that the Sox have a track record in recent years of reluctance to be a half year to a year early bringing guys up and the other end of that is they are regularly a half year to a year late moving the guy the up and comer is replacing.

 

This element to the way the Sox deal with this specific issues seems to transcend realities of who is in the FO which is another reason I think that in reality it is LL that takes it upon himself to make or at least govern these decisions.

[a700hitter]

GM1: Hey I got an injured player to trade you.

 

GM2: F off.

 

Youk wasn't getting traded in the offseason.

 

GM 1: I got an injured pitcher to trade you.

 

GM 2: I have a power hitting of OF prospect with some major league experience. Would you like him. He could bat 3rd for your team.

 

Reddick was then traded for Bailey and the homer-less Sweeney.

[Bellhorn04]

GM 1: I got an injured pitcher to trade you.

 

GM 2: I have a power hitting of OF prospect with some major league experience. Would you like him. He could bat 3rd for your team.

 

Reddick was then traded for Bailey and the homer-less Sweeney.

 

Bailey wasn't on the DL at the end of 2011. In his last 4 appearances from Sept 22 to Sept 28 he pitched 4 scoreless, hitless innings. Sounds like a healthy pitcher.

 

Injury-prone, yes, but not injured.

[a700hitter]

Bailey wasn't on the DL at the end of 2011. In his last 4 appearances from Sept 22 to Sept 28 he pitched 4 scoreless, hitless innings. Sounds like a healthy pitcher.

 

Injury-prone, yes, but not injured.

All accounts were that Youkilis was healthy during the off season. He has demonstrated throughout his career that his is more durable than Bailey, who has had a variety of different injuries including elbow issues.

[evilhand]

Another thing people aren't considering when arguing that Youk should have been traded in the off season is that Middlebrooks hadn't yet shown he was ready to hit AAA pitching, never mind MLB pitching. What reason did the Sox front office have to assume he was ready to be handed the starting job? After crushing AA pitching, Middlebrooks looked lost at the plate in Pawtucket in 16 games posting a .468 OPS.

 

All indications were that he needed more time. So if you think not trading Youk was a huge mistake during the off season, you probably wanted to rely on Lowrie (as I can't imagine anyone would think starting Punto every day is an option) to start every day. The problem there is that he's played far less games than the oft injured Youk over the last two years. 143 (+15 minor league) games versus Youk's 222 (+2 minor league).

 

Every argument being made that keeping Youk and playing him now are mistakes is illogical. They contradict themselves and lack any real evidence, but the people making them want to have their opinions acknowledged as being as viable or more so than those who are making logical arguments.

 

If you are arguing for a change in his baseline ability... his ability to hit well while healthy, you must show evidence of such. Pointing to how he's played while hurt is not evidence of how he plays while healthy. It's evidence that he plays poorly when hurt. That's it. Saying no one has any idea how well he can play when healthy because he got hurt last year and it lingered into this season is also faulty logic. At age 33 he is not old enough that we should expect his skills to fall off the table. Add to that a 9 game stretch after the injury where he looked great at the plate and we have a flash of the old Youk there to suggest that ability is still there.

 

Looking at his peripherals, even while hurt, we see no evidence that his skills are declining. In fact, we see evidence that his eye is just as good as it was before getting hurt and that his approach has remained steady. Unlike J.D. Drew, who clearly had his skills diminish and started chasing bad pitches. These numbers are posted above.

 

There is real, tangible evidence that Youk is a great hitter. There is zero evidence that his skills have suddenly fallen off a cliff. Shouting the latter opinion over and over does not make it any more tenable a position.

[evilhand]

Double Post: Please delete.

[Bellhorn04]

You don't believe Jackie Mac: "he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment." Her exact words. Heck her article is full of corroborative detail and she only won the Curt Gowdy Award. But that's okay in Halifax Nova Scotia you probably have more access to these players than do the Boston sports media. Some of whom travel with the club daily. If it gives you comfort to believe what you do then go with it.

 

Jackie Mac is a good writer. But should I put more weight on what she said or on what Youkilis's teammates said about him after Valentine's comments early this year?

 

Pedroia: "I know he plays as hard as anybody I've ever seen in my life. I have his back and his teammates have his back...The whole team is behind Youk."

 

Gonzalez: ""All you can do is tell Youk we love him. All it says is we have each others' backs. We're pulling for each other on the field and in the clubhouse. We've got a strong bond."

 

Exact words, Nick.

[TutGadol]

The real delusion is being a fan for less then 2 years. Youk used to be great, he hit 300 with a good amount of power, good plate discipline, a real grinder, while playing great defense at 2 positions. Last year he played injured, I still don't believe he is a 100%. He'll probably never be back to his pre-2011 form but he used to be one of the best in the team for a while.

[FredLynn]

Jackie Mac is a good writer. But should I put more weight on what she said or on what Youkilis's teammates said about him after Valentine's comments early this year?

 

Pedroia: "I know he plays as hard as anybody I've ever seen in my life. I have his back and his teammates have his back...The whole team is behind Youk."

 

Gonzalez: ""All you can do is tell Youk we love him. All it says is we have each others' backs. We're pulling for each other on the field and in the clubhouse. We've got a strong bond."

 

Exact words, Nick.

 

Just because players have each others' back does not mean that the effect a player is having on the clubhouse is not a negative one. They should, to a large degree, be a brotherhood of sorts. My guess is that had you asked Pedroia and Youkilis about Beckett and Lackey last year they would have covered for them too, but its pretty clear that some of the activities those two (and others) were engaging in were deleterious to the team.

[ibot2much]

on what Youkilis's teammates said about him after Valentine's comments early this year?

 

 

That is the main point. Team mates would defend anybody against the new, controversial manager.....remember the context of their remarks?

[Bellhorn04]

That is the main point. Team mates would defend anybody against the new' date=' controversial manager.....remember the context of their remarks?[/quote']

 

Sure, I remember the context. I actually find Gonzalez's remarks more significant because he's usually pretty quiet. And no, I don't think teammates would necessarily jump to the defence of someone they were having problems with, regardless of how they felt about the manager.

 

If any of these writers that Nick is referencing have direct quotes from someone in the clubhouse, that would be helpful.

[seabeachfred]

Another thing people aren't considering when arguing that Youk should have been traded in the off season is that Middlebrooks hadn't yet shown he was ready to hit AAA pitching, never mind MLB pitching. What reason did the Sox front office have to assume he was ready to be handed the starting job? After crushing AA pitching, Middlebrooks looked lost at the plate in Pawtucket in 16 games posting a .468 OPS.

 

All indications were that he needed more time. So if you think not trading Youk was a huge mistake during the off season, you probably wanted to rely on Lowrie (as I can't imagine anyone would think starting Punto every day is an option) to start every day. The problem there is that he's played far less games than the oft injured Youk over the last two years. 143 (+15 minor league) games versus Youk's 222 (+2 minor league).

 

Every argument being made that keeping Youk and playing him now are mistakes is illogical. They contradict themselves and lack any real evidence, but the people making them want to have their opinions acknowledged as being as viable or more so than those who are making logical arguments.

 

If you are arguing for a change in his baseline ability... his ability to hit well while healthy, you must show evidence of such. Pointing to how he's played while hurt is not evidence of how he plays while healthy. It's evidence that he plays poorly when hurt. That's it. Saying no one has any idea how well he can play when healthy because he got hurt last year and it lingered into this season is also faulty logic. At age 33 he is not old enough that we should expect his skills to fall off the table. Add to that a 9 game stretch after the injury where he looked great at the plate and we have a flash of the old Youk there to suggest that ability is still there.

 

Looking at his peripherals, even while hurt, we see no evidence that his skills are declining. In fact, we see evidence that his eye is just as good as it was before getting hurt and that his approach has remained steady. Unlike J.D. Drew, who clearly had his skills diminish and started chasing bad pitches. These numbers are posted above.

 

There is real, tangible evidence that Youk is a great hitter. There is zero evidence that his skills have suddenly fallen off a cliff. Shouting the latter opinion over and over does not make it any more tenable a position.

 

First of all I do believe that Middlebrooks right now is a better ballplayer and shouldn't be jerked in and out of the lineup any more. Secondly my position is that it is now now now now that we should trade Youkilis....NOW NOW NOW NOW!!!!!!! I have said this repeatedly for the last two weeks. He is not getting better, he is getting worse, he is not hitting better, he is hitting worse-----and we are suffering for it because we have one of the best first basemen in the game struggling in right field, and please don't tell me that hasn't something to do with Gonzo's poor hitting this season. A comfort zone and peace of mind breed confidence and he has been robbed of much of that by also being jerked around the diamond.

 

We are NOT going to get a ransom for Youkilis...a prospect that will not help us this year or maybe ever. That the team is still reluctant to trade him and clear the decks for a set lineup tells me one reason this team has gone back into the tank. There is no consistency or continuity with this team and that is one thing that any good and successful team must have---and right now we are a mess. What's worth we have an idiot as GM who is risk adverse, has trouble making a decision and when he makes one it is usually the wrong one. Needlesss to say if I ran the team the first thing I would do would be to send Pukington packing. My prediction is this will get worse and worse until if and when Youk is traded. Then we will start playing better but it will be too late and some of you who keep pulling the FO and Youk's chestnuts out of the fire will wonder, gee willickers, why didn't we do this before? Well I'm telling you it ought to be done NOW!!!!!!

[Bellhorn04]

There are plenty of reports out there about the Red Sox having already had preliminary trade talks with teams about Youkilis. Pretty unlikely he doesn't get traded by the deadline.

[evilhand]

First of all I do believe that Middlebrooks right now is a better ballplayer and shouldn't be jerked in and out of the lineup any more. Secondly my position is that it is now now now now that we should trade Youkilis....NOW NOW NOW NOW!!!!!!! I have said this repeatedly for the last two weeks. He is not getting better' date=' he is getting worse, he is not hitting better, he is hitting worse-----and we are suffering for it because we have one of the best first basemen in the game struggling in right field, and please don't tell me that hasn't something to do with Gonzo's poor hitting this season. A comfort zone and peace of mind breed confidence and he has been robbed of much of that by also being jerked around the diamond.[/quote']

 

Why can't I tell you that it has nothing to do with his lack of power? His lack of power started after the all star break last year. He didn't play any right field in 2011. Did the fact that he was going to play right field in 2012 ripple back through time to start his power slump early?

 

There is no evidence that playing right field is keeping Gonzalez from crushing the ball again. He was struggling early in this season as well, before ever sniffing the outfield. Youk being on the roster has nothing to do with Gonzalez at the plate. Nothing.

 

And Middlebrooks isn't being jerked around by any definition of the term. He's only being asked to play 3rd, so no worries there. And he's played in 31 of the 37 games the team has had since the date he was called up. That's a 136 game pace over a full season. You're being ridiculous.

 

As for the claim that Middlebrooks is the better player right now... that's dependent on proving that Youk can't hit while healthy, which I've covered above in great detail. In short, there is zero evidence that this is the case.

 

We are NOT going to get a ransom for Youkilis...a prospect that will not help us this year or maybe ever. That the team is still reluctant to trade him and clear the decks for a set lineup tells me one reason this team has gone back into the tank. There is no consistency or continuity with this team and that is one thing that any good and successful team must have---and right now we are a mess.

 

So the fact that they haven't traded Youk is evidence that the front office is a mess and can't get on the same page? That's beyond a logical leap. It's pure fantasy. As for Youk's return, the only way they're going to get a maximized return (what ever that is), is to leverage him to the best of their ability. The best way to do that is to wait out teams that are hoping Ben will blink first, and to play him to demonstrate that he is healthy and can still hit. Your desire to move him is in direct conflict with your desire to sit him. I don't understand how you can keep ignoring that. Ben will get more for him closer to the deadline for no reason other than the deadline is approaching and teams that need to make moves will have to give in somewhat or decide to move on without picking up an impact player.

 

What's worth we have an idiot as GM who is risk adverse' date=' has trouble making a decision and when he makes one it is usually the wrong one. Needlesss to say if I ran the team the first thing I would do would be to send Pukington packing. My prediction is this will get worse and worse until if and when Youk is traded. Then we will start playing better but it will be too late and some of you who keep pulling the FO and Youk's chestnuts out of the fire will wonder, gee willickers, why didn't we do this before? Well I'm telling you it ought to be done NOW!!!!!![/quote']

 

Yes... Ben Cherrington who brought in Cody Ross on the cheap, assembled a bullpen that ended up becoming a strength once the pieces were in place, who identified and called up several players who immediately contributed to the major league squad, who traded a streaky outfielder with some pop (who had a .670 OPS for the vast majority of his season last year) for a closer as good as Papelbon AND Ryan Sweeney, who correctly identified Doubront as the 4th best available starter, who correctly identified Kelly Shoppach as a productive half of a catching platoon, and who correctly evaluated Mike Aviles as an above average short stop "usually makes the wrong" decision.

 

The only moves he's made that you can really question are the Lowrie trade and the Punto signing. Even his first draft, now that we've seen how it played out in its entirety and have had a chance to see reactions from analysts and scouts, looks strong.

 

The Cherrington hate is way over the top here.

 

So, if you're so certain of your position that Youk will not get better, that he will only get worse, how about a bet? It can be a $20.00 donation to the Jimmy Fund or a sig bet... doesn't matter to me. But we'll set the parameters in your favor. Currently, Youk has a line of .231/.314/.372 on the season. Rather than bet on an improvement of that line, I'll give you a bit of a buffer. His line since returning from his early season injury (which includes a really hot 9 games) is .246/.338/.404. I'll wager that he finishes better in all three categories, not just his OPS, by the end of the season. If any one of those numbers is worse, I lose and you win.

 

Additionally, I'll even give you the tiebreaker. If he finishes with the exact same BA, OBP or SLG, you still win. He has to be better in all three. What are you willing to bet? If you're so certain, this should be a no brainer for you.

[Elktonnick]

Sure, I remember the context. I actually find Gonzalez's remarks more significant because he's usually pretty quiet. And no, I don't think teammates would necessarily jump to the defence of someone they were having problems with, regardless of how they felt about the manager.

 

If any of these writers that Nick is referencing have direct quotes from someone in the clubhouse, that would be helpful.

 

Believe me that's not the way it works. In the world I used to work there are several levels of press ground rules. There is background and deep background etc. Baseball is a faternity. Negative on the record quotes about a team mate are as rare as hen's teeth. Background or deep background attribution is the norm. Just because someone is not willing to go on the record doesn't mean what they have said is any less reliable than someone willing to go on the record, actually it can be the reverse. Plus remember how long it took for the team to go public with its criticisms of Manny after he had been a jerk for a long long time.

 

I trust Jackie Mac who has a reputation for journalistic integrity more than the public pronoucements of "Mighty Mouth" and "Everything is Fine" Gonzales.

[Elktonnick]

Let's keep in mind that the Sox had a big management shakeup in the offseason and a conflict about whether the new GM should pick the manager. Plus Henry turned off the money. It was a difficult situation for the FO, but Cherington exascerbated the problem by trading for a closer (Bailey) instead of a starter (Gio G.) because he had a bug up his ass wanting to start Bard. That has blown up in his face on two counts. He also had another bug about Iglesias and Lav needing more "experience". I think he was wrong there, too. Too bad V didn't have more of a say on the matter, but that was Henry/Lucchino's fault.

 

As for Jackie whatnot, that was a dagger effort designed to get her promoted--maybe. Youks did not get a fair shake there. His opinions are probably shared by a few other players. It's a good argument for keeping women out of the clubhouse.

 

You clearly are totally clueless who Jackie MacMullan is or her standing in sports journalism.

[Bellhorn04]

Believe me that's not the way it works. In the world I used to work there are several levels of press ground rules. There is background and deep background etc. Baseball is a faternity. Negative on the record quotes about a team mate are as rare as hen's teeth. Background or deep background attribution is the norm. Just because someone is not willing to go on the record doesn't mean what they have said is any less reliable than someone willing to go on the record, actually it can be the reverse. Plus remember how long it took for the team to go public with its criticisms of Manny after he had been a jerk for a long long time.

 

I trust Jackie Mac who has a reputation for journalistic integrity more than the public pronoucements of "Mighty Mouth" and "Everything is Fine" Gonzales.

 

I do accept her as a credible source. So let's look at exactly what she said:

 

'Sour and cynical...carping' Yes, I can believe all that.

 

'Insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs' That's his comments about Ellsbury. I'd agree that the comments were ill-advised. Did they affect Ellsbury? I can't see how, considering he had an MVP-calibre season.

 

'turned him into a detriment' That's a pretty non-specific statement.

 

You can put your own interpretation on how harsh of a criticism this was on Youkilis. It certainly doesn't sound to me like anything comparable to a Manny situation.

 

As for what his teammates said, I'm sure if nobody had said anything, people would take that as a sign that the players didn't support him.

[FredLynn]

I do accept her as a credible source. So let's look at exactly what she said:

 

'Sour and cynical...carping' Yes, I can believe all that.

 

'Insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs' That's his comments about Ellsbury. I'd agree that the comments were ill-advised. Did they affect Ellsbury? I can't see how, considering he had an MVP-calibre season.

 

'turned him into a detriment' That's a pretty non-specific statement.

 

You can put your own interpretation on how harsh of a criticism this was on Youkilis. It certainly doesn't sound to me like anything comparable to a Manny situation.

 

As for what his teammates said, I'm sure if nobody had said anything, people would take that as a sign that the players didn't support him.

 

When was the last time a player unequivocally criticized the attitude or performance of another player in the media? Its very very rare. If they are asked to comment about their fellow teamates, the cover for them. I am not saying thats a bad thing; in fact, I think its a good thing. But you've got to read between the lines and look for other sources of information when it comes to who is having a bad effect on the team, like Lackey and Beckett had last year. Never once heard in the media any player criticizing those to buffoons about what they did to destroy the club.

[Bellhorn04]

When was the last time a player unequivocally criticized the attitude or performance of another player in the media? Its very very rare. If they are asked to comment about their fellow teamates' date=' the cover for them. I am not saying thats a bad thing; in fact, I think its a good thing. But you've got to read between the lines and look for other sources of information when it comes to who is having a bad effect on the team, like Lackey and Beckett had last year. Never once heard in the media any player criticizing those to buffoons about what they did to destroy the club.[/quote']

 

I know exactly what you're saying, but I think Pedroia's and Gonzalez's comments went well beyond what they needed to say to cover for Youkilis.

[Elktonnick]

I do accept her as a credible source. So let's look at exactly what she said:

 

'Sour and cynical...carping' Yes, I can believe all that.

 

'Insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs' That's his comments about Ellsbury. I'd agree that the comments were ill-advised. Did they affect Ellsbury? I can't see how, considering he had an MVP-calibre season.

 

'turned him into a detriment' That's a pretty non-specific statement.

 

You can put your own interpretation on how harsh of a criticism this was on Youkilis. It certainly doesn't sound to me like anything comparable to a Manny situation.

 

As for what his teammates said, I'm sure if nobody had said anything, people would take that as a sign that the players didn't support him.

 

Do not exaggerate or misquote what I posted which you have a tendency to do. Never said Youyklis's behavior was comparable to the utter disaster that was Manny. But rather that even in the extreme case of Ramirez's behavior (Youklis never assualted a 60 plus traveling secretary) players are loathe to comment publically on their teammates.

 

What Jackie Mac said in addition to her article was that Youklis was a problem in the clubhouse and that he needed to go. I think her article is pretty damning actually. She doesn't have to use the loaded term cancer but " insisting on inserting himself in other people affairs" is a pretty tough statement considering that these are 25 plus guys who have to work and travel with each over six plus months. Hey if you think it isn't a tough indictment well then I guess you must be easy to work and live with. Kudos to you.

 

I think I can understand why the club should trade him asap and they were foolish not to do so sooner.

 

Let me add that personnel problems such as those described by Jackie Mac are some of the toughest and most persistent problems one faces in a senior management role. Based on my experience these are the most divisive, insidious and time consuming problems an organization faces. Frequently the only way to resolve them is to move some one, quickly

[seabeachfred]

Why can't I tell you that it has nothing to do with his lack of power? His lack of power started after the all star break last year. He didn't play any right field in 2011. Did the fact that he was going to play right field in 2012 ripple back through time to start his power slump early?

 

There is no evidence that playing right field is keeping Gonzalez from crushing the ball again. He was struggling early in this season as well, before ever sniffing the outfield. Youk being on the roster has nothing to do with Gonzalez at the plate. Nothing.

 

And Middlebrooks isn't being jerked around by any definition of the term. He's only being asked to play 3rd, so no worries there. And he's played in 31 of the 37 games the team has had since the date he was called up. That's a 136 game pace over a full season. You're being ridiculous.

 

As for the claim that Middlebrooks is the better player right now... that's dependent on proving that Youk can't hit while healthy, which I've covered above in great detail. In short, there is zero evidence that this is the case.

 

 

 

So the fact that they haven't traded Youk is evidence that the front office is a mess and can't get on the same page? That's beyond a logical leap. It's pure fantasy. As for Youk's return, the only way they're going to get a maximized return (what ever that is), is to leverage him to the best of their ability. The best way to do that is to wait out teams that are hoping Ben will blink first, and to play him to demonstrate that he is healthy and can still hit. Your desire to move him is in direct conflict with your desire to sit him. I don't understand how you can keep ignoring that. Ben will get more for him closer to the deadline for no reason other than the deadline is approaching and teams that need to make moves will have to give in somewhat or decide to move on without picking up an impact player.

 

 

 

Yes... Ben Cherrington who brought in Cody Ross on the cheap, assembled a bullpen that ended up becoming a strength once the pieces were in place, who identified and called up several players who immediately contributed to the major league squad, who traded a streaky outfielder with some pop (who had a .670 OPS for the vast majority of his season last year) for a closer as good as Papelbon AND Ryan Sweeney, who correctly identified Doubront as the 4th best available starter, who correctly identified Kelly Shoppach as a productive half of a catching platoon, and who correctly evaluated Mike Aviles as an above average short stop "usually makes the wrong" decision.

 

The only moves he's made that you can really question are the Lowrie trade and the Punto signing. Even his first draft, now that we've seen how it played out in its entirety and have had a chance to see reactions from analysts and scouts, looks strong.

 

The Cherrington hate is way over the top here.

 

So, if you're so certain of your position that Youk will not get better, that he will only get worse, how about a bet? It can be a $20.00 donation to the Jimmy Fund or a sig bet... doesn't matter to me. But we'll set the parameters in your favor. Currently, Youk has a line of .231/.314/.372 on the season. Rather than bet on an improvement of that line, I'll give you a bit of a buffer. His line since returning from his early season injury (which includes a really hot 9 games) is .246/.338/.404. I'll wager that he finishes better in all three categories, not just his OPS, by the end of the season. If any one of those numbers is worse, I lose and you win.

 

Additionally, I'll even give you the tiebreaker. If he finishes with the exact same BA, OBP or SLG, you still win. He has to be better in all three. What are you willing to bet? If you're so certain, this should be a no brainer for you.

 

You're on bub!!!!!!! I also think I know who you are and your pollyanna persona and carrying the water for the front office gave you away. What's the matter......STFU getting too dull for you?