What's next for Daniel Bard?

[FredLynn]

Its likely that Bard will never make it back to the ML. Our FO screwed him up pretty good by requiring changes in his mechanics. Now he can't get back to where he was. Then they left him in the rotation way beyond when it was clear that he had failed that experiment. Great job gang!

[Bellhorn04]

Its likely that Bard will never make it back to the ML. Our FO screwed him up pretty good by requiring changes in his mechanics. Now he can't get back to where he was. Then they left him in the rotation way beyond when it was clear that he had failed that experiment. Great job gang!

 

FO didn't screw him up. This was what he wanted. They gave him the opportunity to be closer but he wanted to start. This is all on Daniel.

 

Also I predict you're wrong, he'll be back in the bigs this year.

[FredLynn]

FO didn't screw him up. This was what he wanted. They gave him the opportunity to be closer but he wanted to start. This is all on Daniel.

 

Also I predict you're wrong, he'll be back in the bigs this year.

 

I really could not care less what he wanted. Thats another dysfunctional element of our FO: they cater to what the players want even when its deleterious to the team. They allowed Bard a chance to start, which is fine-but then the screwed with his mechanics, which reduced his velocity, and they allowed the debacle to continue past all understanding. Now he cannot even get back to where he was. Not only won't he get back into the bigs this year, I doubt he will EVER make it back and reach his previous level of effectiveness.

[Bellhorn04]

I really could not care less what he wanted. Thats another dysfunctional element of our FO: they cater to what the players want even when its deleterious to the team. They allowed Bard a chance to start' date=' which is fine-but then the screwed with his mechanics, which reduced his velocity, and they allowed the debacle to continue past all understanding. Now he cannot even get back to where he was. Not only won't he get back into the bigs this year, I doubt he will EVER make it back and reach his previous level of effectiveness.[/quote']

 

Past all understanding? Now you're just being silly and dramatic. Before the Toronto debacle he was 5-5 with a 4.56 ERA, he had gone at least 5 innings in every start, and most of us agreed he was doing an acceptable job as a back-end starter.

[mvp 78]

Its likely that Bard will never make it back to the ML!

 

No, it's not.

[FredLynn]

Past all understanding? Now you're just being silly and dramatic. Before the Toronto debacle he was 5-5 with a 4.56 ERA' date=' he had gone at least 5 innings in every start, and most of us agreed he was doing an acceptable job as a back-end starter.[/quote']

 

Actually, as I recall, most of us were calling for the experiment to end long before it did. Those who weren't ready to give up on him as a SP had their doubts. No one here that I can recall was sold on Bard as a SP, even at the back end of the rotation-which is not where anyone had hoped he would be anyway. Back end starters are easy to find; consistently elite RP are not. Bard was allowed to implode many weeks past when he should have been sent back to Pawtucket to relearn what he had forgotten about pitching. Now look at him. He is lost.

[FredLynn]

No' date=' it's not.[/quote']

 

Time will tell. He might make it back, but unless he regains his velocity he will never be the pitcher he once was.

[Bellhorn04]

Actually' date=' as I recall, most of us were calling for the experiment to end long before it did. Those who weren't ready to give up on him as a SP had their doubts. No one here that I can recall was sold on Bard as a SP, even at the back end of the rotation-which is not where anyone had hoped he would be anyway. Back end starters are easy to find; consistently elite RP are not. Bard was allowed to implode many weeks past when he should have been sent back to Pawtucket to relearn what he had forgotten about pitching. Now look at him. He is lost.[/quote']

 

Adequate back end starters in the ALE are not a given at all...surely you learned that last year...Lackey, Wakefield, Miller, Weiland, Bedard...those guys cost us the playoffs.

[FredLynn]

Adequate back end starters in the ALE are not a given at all...surely you learned that last year...Lackey' date=' Wakefield, Miller, Weiland, Bedard...those guys cost us the playoffs.[/quote']

 

Adequate back end starters like DiceK or Doubront or Bedard are not tough to find. The other guys you mentioned I would not even consider as back end starters. All you need to do is pay for a back end SP and you can get one.

Besides, the back end SP role is not what anyone envisioned as Bard's final role, was it? His numbers were never better than VERY back end as a SP, but as a reliever, he excelled. Which would you rather have on your team: a consistently dominant shut down 8th inning RP, or a borderline end of the rotation SP? I take the RP.

[jung]

To be honest I did not want Bard inserted into that 5 hole. However once they put him there I did not see a way to get him outta' there until dice was ready or maybe Cook as ready.

 

So I wanted them to go a different way but once they went Bard, I thought the Sox were pretty much stuck with that decision.

[FredLynn]

To be honest I did not want Bard inserted into that 5 hole. However once they put him there I did not see a way to get him outta' there until dice was ready or maybe Cook as ready.

 

So I wanted them to go a different way but once they went Bard, I thought the Sox were pretty much stuck with that decision.

 

They had options. Padilla could have been stretched out early on. Germano could have had a shot at it, and Cooke was available until he got hurt. They just left him in there to wilt way too long IMO.

[mvp 78]

Time will tell. He might make it back' date=' but unless he regains his velocity he will never be the pitcher he once was.[/quote']

 

If his stuff never comes back, he'll still get to the ML somewhere.

[Bellhorn04]

In each of the two starts before the debacle, Bard gave up 2 runs in 5.1 innings. When Doubront has starts with those numbers, everyone thinks he did just fine. The expectations for Bard as a starter were too high to begin with.

[jung]

For my part I never thought 2 runs in 5 innings were that big a deal. You might want to take a look and see how many walks Bard was giving up in those same 5 innings because that is where I would have had problems with Bard in a 2 run 5 inning stint. He was very often giving up as many as three walks in those same 5 innings...in instances giving up three walks in less than 5 innings. When a SP is doing that he is just walking on eggs. Might get away with it this outing but more times than not won't get away with it.

[a700hitter]

In each of the two starts before the debacle' date=' Bard gave up 2 runs in 5.1 innings. When Doubront has starts with those numbers, everyone thinks he did just fine. The expectations for Bard as a starter were too high to begin with.[/quote']Not really. Bard was a fireballing strikeout pitcher. That aspect of his game had disappeared. Not only did he stop putting batters away on strikes, but he led the league in walks. Doubront has consistently been putting batters away on strikes at a good clip and his walk frequency was not anywhere near as bad as Bard's. Bard was falling apart in front of our eyes. His game was deteriorating. You don't end up leading the league in walks as the result of one bad start. In 55 innings, he walked 37 batters and hit 8 other batters. That's 45 free passes in 55 innings or 7.36 walks and HBP/9 innings. That is ridiculously bad. Take away his last start, and he walked 31 batter and hit 6 in 53 1/3 innings for a rate of 6.24 free passes per 9 innings-- completely unacceptable. He had less k's than walks-- unacceptable. Doubront's k/BB ratio is 3 to 1. His free pass ratio (walks and HBP) is 3.5/9innings-- a far cry from Bard's ratio. No one is being too tough on Bard.

[FredLynn]

If his stuff never comes back' date=' he'll still get to the ML somewhere.[/quote']

 

That is possible. What I meant by coming back into the majors is returning and being effective like he was before. There might be some team out there who is willing to take a chance on him. He is highly unlikely to return to form IMO. He is a mess, just like Craig Hanson was a mess when he left. Both guys were mismanaged by our FO, in different ways.

[FredLynn]

In each of the two starts before the debacle' date=' Bard gave up 2 runs in 5.1 innings. When Doubront has starts with those numbers, everyone thinks he did just fine. The expectations for Bard as a starter were too high to begin with.[/quote']

 

Some here have chastized me for overusing ERA to the exclusion of other numbers. In this case, as "700" pointed out, ERA doesn't tell the whole story. The K/BB ratio was absurd, and his loss of velocity was the reason for it. He could no longer fire the ball down the middle of the plate and get swings and misses. Even Doubront has a fastball that tops out at 95-96. Bard never got that high. He is screwed up.

[Bellhorn04]

Some here have chastized me for overusing ERA to the exclusion of other numbers. In this case' date=' as "700" pointed out, ERA doesn't tell the whole story. The K/BB ratio was absurd, and his loss of velocity was the reason for it. He could no longer fire the ball down the middle of the plate and get swings and misses. Even Doubront has a fastball that tops out at 95-96. Bard never got that high. He is screwed up.[/quote']

 

He may have already been screwed up, unfortunately. He may have gotten 'Scott Proctored' last season through overuse. He was not himself last September.

[mvp 78]

He may have already been screwed up' date=' unfortunately. He may have gotten 'Scott Proctored' last season through overuse. He was not himself last September.[/quote']

 

Don't you try and pin this on anyone but Ben the Boob, mister!

[a700hitter]

Time will tell. He might make it back' date=' but unless he regains his velocity he will never be the pitcher he once was.[/quote']Just get him a trampoline already and end this.

[FredLynn]

Don't you try and pin this on anyone but Ben the Boob' date=' mister![/quote']

 

If the bra fits, its your teet.

[FredLynn]

He may have already been screwed up' date=' unfortunately. He may have gotten 'Scott Proctored' last season through overuse. He was not himself last September.[/quote']

 

Thats entirely possible, but as I recall, his velocity was still pretty good, even last September. And they did screw with his mechanics trying to make him a SP.

[Bellhorn04]

Thats entirely possible' date=' but as I recall, his velocity was still pretty good, even last September. And they did screw with his mechanics trying to make him a SP.[/quote']

 

Well, you could be right, maybe he is hopelessly screwed. Time will tell.

[seabeachfred]

Don't expect BarF to be back any time soon. In fact, it is my opinion that he is about finished with the Red Sox. Pukington is the culprit here because he was the one who insisted that this guy could start and most of us knew that he couldn't because he couldn't when he was down in Class "A". He was a solid set-up man and the team couldn't leave well enough alone. Another young Red Sox player ruined beyond redeption. Anyone for Kalish, Middlebrooks, or Nava? God help us all.

[SCM33]

Don't expect BarF to be back any time soon. In fact' date=' it is my opinion that he is about finished with the Red Sox. Pukington is the culprit here because he was the one who insisted that this guy could start and most of us knew that he couldn't because he couldn't when he was down in Class "A". He was a solid set-up man and the team couldn't leave well enough alone. Another young Red Sox player ruined beyond redeption. Anyone for Kalish, Middlebrooks, or Nava? God help us all.[/quote']

 

Who is Pukington?

 

If you are referring to Cherington, it wasn't his decision.

 

I didn't think he'd do well as a starter either, but stop kidding yourself...nobody saw this disaster.

 

This has Larry Luchino written all over it.......Cherington's balls have been cut off since day 1. He is the GM in name only.

[a700hitter]

Who is Pukington?

 

If you are referring to Cherington, it wasn't his decision.

 

I didn't think he'd do well as a starter either, but stop kidding yourself...nobody saw this disaster.

 

This has Larry Luchino written all over it.......Cherington's balls have been cut off since day 1. He is the GM in name only.

The Yankees ruined Joba and Hughes shuttling them back and forth between the bullpen and rotation. Bard is a trampoline accident away from being a Joba-like disaster.

[Bellhorn04]

The Yankees ruined Joba and Hughes shuttling them back and forth between the bullpen and rotation. Bard is a trampoline accident away from being a Joba-like disaster.

 

Hard to say whether Hughes is ruined. He's had 6 quality starts since May 6.

 

There are a lot of similarities, though...the Yankees and Sox decided there was more potential value in these guys as starters than as set-up men, even though they had a lot of success as set-up men.

[Elktonnick]

Who is Pukington?

 

If you are referring to Cherington, it wasn't his decision.

 

I didn't think he'd do well as a starter either, but stop kidding yourself...nobody saw this disaster.

 

This has Larry Luchino written all over it.......Cherington's balls have been cut off since day 1. He is the GM in name only.

 

That's not accurate, many people predicted that this is exactly what would happen.

[Dojji]

That's not accurate' date=' many people predicted that this is exactly what would happen.[/quote']

 

No they didn't. A lot of people saw a disaster from the getgo, and many might have worried that Bard would get hurt, but what we saw since the Baltimore disaster is basically a righthanded Rick Ankiel without the hitting ability. Even the people who projected catastrophe mostly thought that if you put him in the pen, he'd be fine. Doesn't look like it now.

[mvp 78]

B'more disaster?