2012 Catch-All Trade Deadline Thread

[redsoxbeatz]

It would be Ells/Lester. If you're giving up Ellsbury and Lester, there are zero minor league players involved.

 

If you give up 1 of the 2, then you start talking about maybe an Ellsbury + Barnes + Lavarnway deal.

 

Yeah, I like this.

 

I hate talking about it though b/c what are the odds of this s*** really going down??

 

Ells/Lester is enough. They can always have DiceK too if Mariners are greedy and maybe DiceK brings in even more (oriental) fans to the park.

 

Ells leaves. Jackie comes up next year or '14. Win!

[a700hitter]

It's well' date=' well, well beyond ridiculous to call Ellsbury "injury prone". Injury prone is when guys have RECURRING INJURIES TO A SPECIFIC AREA THAT DOESN'T EVER HEAL. That is not at all what we have with Ellsbury. Two freak accidents. [/quote']He slid wrong into second base leaving himself vulnerable to injury.

 

Jason Bay got a concussion from running into a fence making a catch. He broke his ribs attempting a diving catch and he sustained a second concussion diving into a wall head first. Oh, and he has missed time with bad sinuses. The result is that he is never on the field helping his team. Is he injury-prone? He's all healed up and ready to go according to reports today. If you don't like the term injury prone, lets call these guys "oft-injured". You can't argue with that. No matter which term you use, these guys miss a lot of time to injury.

[jung]

One thing that might play into this for the M's (should anything actually be possible) is what the M's would have left to help them go forward once Felix is gone. Do they have other guys anybody would be interested in. Do they have enough of a team with the guys we would be trading to them to get Felix. Clearly Felix is so dominant that he can get you a win almost entirely on his own. Once he is gone, unless the M's have guys coming up that can make it a team boy I would think they would demand a kings ransom for Felix.

 

Financially the team looks OK and they are about to be able to really sweeten their TV deal. Seems like they should be in position to actually be a real baseball team at some point. Anybody know how they look down on the farm?

 

Without knowing any better I would guess that they have pumped a bunch of money into safeco and things like that preparing to move forward as a team. Their player payroll is already $120M. You would think they could field more of a team with a $120M payroll. They sure as hell don't play like $120M.

[example1]

It's funny that the discussion has gone on this long. Is there any indication that Seattle is actually looking to move Felix?

[SoxFanForsyth]

He slid wrong into second base leaving himself vulnerable to injury.

 

Jason Bay got a concussion from running into a fence making a catch. He broke his ribs attempting a diving catch and he sustained a second concussion diving into a wall head first. Oh, and he has missed time with bad sinuses. The result is that he is never on the field helping his team. Is he injury-prone? He's all healed up and ready to go according to reports today. If you don't like the term injury prone, lets call these guys "oft-injured". You can't argue with that. No matter which term you use, these guys miss a lot of time to injury.

 

Bay has been on multiple stints because of concussions. And, once you get one concussion, it's very easy to get another, so that makes Bay injury prone.

 

Also, Bay didn't play a 158 game season between injuries. That is something that completely negates any "injury prone" arguments. Players don't throw out 158 game seasons if they're injury prone.

[a700hitter]

Bay has been on multiple stints because of concussions. And, once you get one concussion, it's very easy to get another, so that makes Bay injury prone.

 

Also, Bay didn't play a 158 game season between injuries. That is something that completely negates any "injury prone" arguments. Players don't throw out 158 game seasons if they're injury prone.

Multiple concussions? He's had two -- from running head first into fences and walls. Also, Bay did average over 150 games per year for 6 years straight before going to the Mets. He and Ellsbury are now oft-injured players. Until they get their asses on the field and play some full seasons. That is an apt description.

[jung]

Probably gone on so long cause it is such an interesting and provocative topic. However I really have my doubts both about using Ells as a trading chip successfully and prying Felix out of Seattle. May actually be easier to pry Felix out of Seattle than it would be to use Ells as a trading chip for him.

 

Hasn't Ells or Boras actually said that it is a 100% surety that Ells will test the FA market? I think Ells said somewhere a few months ago that he would consider an extension but I think everything that has been said has been said within the context of Boras really being sure that Ells is going FA....meaning even if there is a chance of Ells signing an extension it will be for a boatload of money.

[BornToRun]

Multiple concussions? He's had two -- from running head first into fences and walls. Also' date=' Bay did average over 150 games per year for 6 years straight before going to the Mets. He and Ellsbury are now oft-injured players. Until they get their asses on the field and play some full seasons. That is an apt description.[/quote']

 

Ellsbury has missed time because of a tank running into him and breaking his ribs and somebody landing on his shoulder. Two freak injuries that in no way make him injury prone. The ells is glass statement that everyone wants to make is just flat out false.

[mvp 78]

They weren't "freak" injuries. Collisions happen all the time.

[SoxFanForsyth]

They weren't "freak" injuries. Collisions happen all the time.

 

How many times have you seen a shoulder subluxation from sliding into 2nd base? That would be a 1st for me.

 

And the reason it's a "freak injury" is because it happens frequently and doesn't cause injuries frequently.

 

By the way - I heard you just passed the CPA exam. I take FAR on Thursday. I'm not excited.

[kapsis21]

They weren't "freak" injuries. Collisions happen all the time.

 

but he is running into them little too often for the kind of elite center fielder he is.. and the shoulder injury this year is a total freak incident

[RedSoxNC84]

They weren't "freak" injuries. Collisions happen all the time.

 

They may not have been freak injuries, but you try colliding with Adrian Beltre and see what happens

[jung]

Well maybe the one place where Ells could be criticized in this case is that it was a bad slide....a really bad slide in fact and he got caught on the wrong side of the bag trying to reach back to hang on to it. If he had just made a proper slide he would not have been hurt.

 

While there was all this talk of V and fundamentals blah blah blah I think it is actually a bigger problem than V can resolve. How many good hook slides do you see anymore? I don't see many. How many times do we see guys, from all teams just bouncing right over the bag and either jamming an ankle, a knee or what have you. How many good pop up slides do you see anymore? I don't see many. The pop up is as much a graceful art as a good hook slide...might even be better. The only time I see a good pop up anymore is when the guy probably did not need to slide in the first place.

 

Even taking guys out at second has turned into some artless form of a football tackle and hardly looks like what we used to see around second base.

 

What I see most often anymore is to some extent what I mentioned earlier....guys just bashing into the bag like some sort of enraged Rhino looking to destroy the bag like it was some irritant standing in their way. I just don't get it....learn to slide for crying out loud.

 

I am not trying to make this one of those, things used to be better in the old days post cause there is no doubt in my mind that these guys are capable. They just don't seem to know how.

[mvp 78]

They may not have been freak injuries' date=' but you try colliding with Adrian Beltre and see what happens[/quote']

 

I totally agree. I'm not saying he's soft or overly injury prone. Just don't see his injuries as "freak" occurances.

[example1]

Probably gone on so long cause it is such an interesting and provocative topic. However I really have my doubts both about using Ells as a trading chip successfully and prying Felix out of Seattle. May actually be easier to pry Felix out of Seattle than it would be to use Ells as a trading chip for him.

 

Hasn't Ells or Boras actually said that it is a 100% surety that Ells will test the FA market? I think Ells said somewhere a few months ago that he would consider an extension but I think everything that has been said has been said within the context of Boras really being sure that Ells is going FA....meaning even if there is a chance of Ells signing an extension it will be for a boatload of money.

 

I've touted the "trade for Felix" line for many years. He's like the White Whale. It might be interesting, but he's likely not available.

 

That said, I'll totally partake of the discussion.

[redsoxbeatz]

Do the Mariners plan to resign him for even more money or what? Not sure why they wouldn't deal him for some good s***.

[kapsis21]

Thome to orioles for a double A prospect

[BornToRun]

Thome to orioles for a double A prospect

 

I think thats the early sign of Philly giving up.

[SoxSport]

McDonald has been DFAd, as per the Globe tonite. To make room for Beckett.

 

That's one less outfielder in the mix. My hope is Kalish sticks, and Sweeney gets dealt, but that FO is liable to option Kalish--the guy with the upside. Lillibridge messes up the OF situation, because they'll carry him as an infielder, too. The guys they should keep besides CC and Ells are Nava, Ross and Kalish.

 

There's some talk of Salty making the all-star team--I voted for him. But Napoli, Mauer and Wieters are supposedly ahead of him, though Salty has the best power numbers.

[jung]

I really hope Lilibridge does not turn out to be one of these jack of all trades master of none sorts especially since now there is a chance we end up losing Kalish for Lilibridge. Maybe some of these guys are going to end up dealt in trades almost as a necessity.

[a700hitter]

Ellsbury has missed time because of a tank running into him and breaking his ribs and somebody landing on his shoulder. Two freak injuries that in no way make him injury prone. The ells is glass statement that everyone wants to make is just flat out false.

Sometimes guys get injured because they play recklessly, not because they are made of glass. it takes them too long coming back, because of their agents and the amount of money invested in the players has resulted in them becoming girlie men. I don't limit this to Ellsbury. It is the state of baseball today. A bunch of girlie men.

[example1]

Sometimes guys get injured because they play recklessly' date=' not because they are made of glass. it takes them too long coming back, because of their agents and the amount of money invested in the players has resulted in them becoming girlie men. I don't limit this to Ellsbury. It is the state of baseball today. A bunch of girlie men.[/quote']

 

I want to strongly disagree with this statement... but I can't. I like Ellsbury and think he's a tremendous athlete and probably much tougher than I am. At the same time, I often wonder how NFL players, NHL players, etc., are able to play an entire season getting their asses kicked all the time, and MLBers (OFs, not pitchers) are shut down with a sore elbow.

 

I know there's a lot more to it than being 'weak'. I know that a player needs to be able to throw the ball and that losing a guy for 162 games the following season would suck even more, but still, sometimes players can just refuse to sit and it works... who knows. Hopefully Ellsbury will be back and productive soon, until they trade him for a bounty of really good talent.

[a700hitter]

I want to strongly disagree with this statement... but I can't. I like Ellsbury and think he's a tremendous athlete and probably much tougher than I am. At the same time, I often wonder how NFL players, NHL players, etc., are able to play an entire season getting their asses kicked all the time, and MLBers (OFs, not pitchers) are shut down with a sore elbow.

 

I know there's a lot more to it than being 'weak'. I know that a player needs to be able to throw the ball and that losing a guy for 162 games the following season would suck even more, but still, sometimes players can just refuse to sit and it works... who knows. Hopefully Ellsbury will be back and productive soon, until they trade him for a bounty of really good talent.

Baseball is my #1 sport. Nothing comes close for me. i think baseball players are probably the most highly skilled players of any sport. However, I have seen the sport change. One of the changes is that players expect to be fully healed before they return to play. Almost every season there is a key QB or RB that slaps on a flak jacket and plays half a season with broken ribs. The difference in my opinion is that the NFL players don't have guaranteed contracts. The broken ribs are just as painful for them and the NFL is even more physically demanding than MLB.

[redsoxbeatz]

One American League executive says the Cubs are basing their asking price for Matt Garza on last summer’s Ubaldo Jimenez deal. This means it’ll take two controllable, young players with upside to pry the right-hander away from Jed Hoyer and Theo Epstein.

 

If Red Sox want to try.

[example1]

A move that is making more and more sense to me right now is trading Ellsbury for prospects. I can't think of the last time the Sox moved a player who could bring back a haul of actual prospects. They are generally on the other side of the deal (getting the big player).

 

If they could add 2-3 legitimate, Kalish/Lavarnway level prospects for Ellsbury it would be wise. Not sure what the position of need is, possibly more SP, RP or 1B? In any case, it might be too much to expect the Sox to move Ellsbury as part of a deal for a big-name player, but with how Cherington has been able to pick young talent over the years I would trust them to get a few cost-controlled, impact players.

[example1]

Here's where the Sox sit with regard to prospects:

 

Combination of SoxProspects rankings and my own fairly conservative guesses about who stands a good chance of contributing at an MLB level at some point in their career (bold):

 

Pitcher:

Barnes

Ranaudo

Tazawa

Workman

Britton

Wilson

Owens

Pimentel

Johnson

Buttrey

Light

Callahan

Ramirez

Pena

 

Catcher

Lavarnway

Swihart

Butler

Vazquez

Ibarra

 

First-Base

Shaw

Anderson

Gomez

Rodriguez

 

Second Base

Coyle

 

Third Base

Cecchini

Vitek

Almanzar

Renfroe

 

Shortstop

Bogaerts

Iglesias

Marrero

Vinicio

Lin

 

Outfield

Bradley

Brentz

Jacobs

De La Cruz

Jerez

Lin

Hassan

Linares

Ramos

Perkins

Hazelbaker

Wilkerson

Margot

 

 

What can we learn from this list? The Sox have a few positions with pretty nice depth. If you include Nava and Kalish in the OF list then they have a number of potential contributors to go along with Crawford. They are also very deep at SS.

 

They are relatively weak at 3B, 2B and 1B, which is apparently part of the plan, with Middlebrooks, Pedroia and Gonzalez holding down those positions.

 

The players who are bolded above are probably the ones who would draw the most legitimate interest from other teams for trades, though some are either too young (Owens, Buttrey) or too talented (Britton, Workman) to count out. There are probably a significant number of other players in the system that other teams would be interested in, but for my money the bolded ones here are guys I would be asking for if I were another team dealing an established player.

[SemperFi Sox]

Here's where the Sox sit with regard to prospects:

 

Combination of SoxProspects rankings and my own fairly conservative guesses about who stands a good chance of contributing at an MLB level at some point in their career (bold):

 

Pitcher:

Barnes

Ranaudo

Tazawa

Workman

Britton

Wilson

Owens

Pimentel

Johnson

Buttrey

Light

Callahan

Ramirez

Pena

 

Catcher

Lavarnway

Swihart

Butler

Vazquez

Ibarra

 

First-Base

Shaw

Anderson

Gomez

Rodriguez

 

Second Base

Coyle

 

Third Base

Cecchini

Vitek

Almanzar

Renfroe

 

Shortstop

Bogaerts

Iglesias

Marrero

Vinicio

Lin

 

Outfield

Bradley

Brentz

Jacobs

De La Cruz

Jerez

Lin

Hassan

Linares

Ramos

Perkins

Hazelbaker

Wilkerson

Margot

 

 

What can we learn from this list? The Sox have a few positions with pretty nice depth. If you include Nava and Kalish in the OF list then they have a number of potential contributors to go along with Crawford. They are also very deep at SS.

 

They are relatively weak at 3B, 2B and 1B, which is apparently part of the plan, with Middlebrooks, Pedroia and Gonzalez holding down those positions.

 

The players who are bolded above are probably the ones who would draw the most legitimate interest from other teams for trades, though some are either too young (Owens, Buttrey) or too talented (Britton, Workman) to count out. There are probably a significant number of other players in the system that other teams would be interested in, but for my money the bolded ones here are guys I would be asking for if I were another team dealing an established player.

 

Jerez and Margot are going to be two names to watch.

[FredLynn]

And Tazawa has already contributed at a ML level. There is just no room for him right now.

[FredLynn]

McDonald has been DFAd, as per the Globe tonite. To make room for Beckett.

 

That's one less outfielder in the mix. My hope is Kalish sticks, and Sweeney gets dealt, but that FO is liable to option Kalish--the guy with the upside. Lillibridge messes up the OF situation, because they'll carry him as an infielder, too. The guys they should keep besides CC and Ells are Nava, Ross and Kalish.

 

There's some talk of Salty making the all-star team--I voted for him. But Napoli, Mauer and Wieters are supposedly ahead of him, though Salty has the best power numbers.

 

I think that Kalish should be optioned back to AAA. He needs the reps, and he is not likely to get them with the ML club. So I would rather see Sweeney kept for now. Lillibridge and Punto are in the same category: both suck and do not belong on our roster.

[Bellhorn04]

I think that Kalish should be optioned back to AAA. He needs the reps' date=' and he is not likely to get them with the ML club. So I would rather see Sweeney kept for now. Lillibridge and Punto are in the same category: both suck and do not belong on our roster.[/quote']

 

We don't need both Lillibridge and Punto but we need one. Gotta have a backup middle infielder.