So how about Daniel Nava?

[Bellhorn04]

To be honest I don't think I will feel comfortable with what CC does until he is doing it.

 

He does have a year here now but it was a year of abject failure that somehow got worse and worse as the year went on until it got to the point where he could not field any longer as well as not hit.

 

I would also feel more comfortable with CC if he had not gone through that campaign for his spot in the batting order earlier this year. That did not sound like a confident player to me.

 

I am going to go absolutely out of my mind if the Sox hold onto d-mac and let go of Nava. Pods should be outta' here before the Sox have to make a decision on Nava as well as the injured return.

 

I do think the posts we are seeing recently regarding Ells are interesting. He has a guy land on his shoulder just at the point where his shoulder is sitting over the 2nd base bag like a stick that you might lean on a log just before you break it in two with your foot and he now fragile.

 

I do think that given the circumstances the Sox find themselves in with regard to Ells they need to explore the possibilities for trading Ells. I think you still want Nava in your hip pocket if you are going to explore what you might get back for Ells.

 

There's no freakin' way they let go of Nava now. Valentine would go medieval.

[SemperFi Sox]

I'm not convinced he can keep playing like this. Could be great trade bait if he does though. i'd rather keep Kalish to start RF next season.

[Dojji]

Nava's not a candidate for right field at Fenway, so alleging that he's in some way competing with Kalish is incorrect.

 

He is competing against Crawford though, and he's making a good case for himself.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Ya know, I think this board has a lot of really good posters who are smart about baseball.

 

But I cannot fathom how people actually think that Crawford has just lost it. He's an elite player and a complete game changer. And he should absolutely not sit for Nava. Now, if you want to argue that we have a guy in Nava who is playing well enough to keep guys like Ellsbury and Crawford from trying to rush their way back, then fine, I agree.

 

But Crawford is 1 season off of a 7th place finish in the MVP, he won a GG, a Silver Slugger, and was the starting LF in the ASG.

 

He had a down season. He didn't fall off the cliff. I wonder if you guys would have wanted to sit Adam Dunn after last season, too. And will you guys want to sit Adrian Gonzalez next year if he doesn't pick it up?

[SemperFi Sox]

Crawford isn't sitting no matter what for what we're paying him. Anyone who thinks he'll sit for Nava is just naive. The problem is that Crawford really doesn't fit anywhere in this lineup, something Theo should have thought about. He's going to be playing almost every night when he's healthy. Tough decisions are going to have to be made regarding Ross/Kalish/Nava. McDonald isn't a tough decision, and it amazes me how long he's lasted here.

[Dojji]

It's not that Crawford's lost it. It's that he never had it full-time. The man is inconsistent due to his mediocre plate approach. If the man doesn't hit .300 -- and he doesn't always hit .300 -- he doesn't do enough else right to make his numbers strong offensively. He's a lot like Vernon Wells in that respect except Wells has more power.

 

What we saw last year was what happens when Crawford never has the several weeks of super hot streak that usually define his campaigns. But the man has never been a consistent baseball player.

[SemperFi Sox]

I think coming to Boston was a huge problem for him. The pressure to perform in this market after getting that contract ruined his mind. I think he even admitted to such in spring training. If his mind is right, he can still be a big performer.

[example1]

Crawford was one of the most valuable players in the league, certainly one of the most valuable OFs, for a few years there until 2011. Lets put to rest the notion that he was just a mirage. His combination of talents made him dangerous in many areas and a terror to opponents.

 

I'm not sure what they should do with Nava, but Crawford is the starting LF.

[Bellhorn04]

Crawford was one of the most valuable players in the league, certainly one of the most valuable OFs, for a few years there until 2011. Lets put to rest the notion that he was just a mirage. His combination of talents made him dangerous in many areas and a terror to opponents.

 

I'm not sure what they should do with Nava, but Crawford is the starting LF.

 

Sure, obviously Crawford gets his starting job back. My only position on Nava is, don't trade him.

[example1]

Why not? If he could be part of a package for a really good player? He's been in the Sox system awhile and few league wide or in the sox community had much use for him. If the right deal is there and they can swap his name where Kalish's used to be, sell high.

[SoxFanForsyth]

It's not that Crawford's lost it. It's that he never had it full-time. The man is inconsistent due to his mediocre plate approach. If the man doesn't hit .300 -- and he doesn't always hit .300 -- he doesn't do enough else right to make his numbers strong offensively. He's a lot like Vernon Wells in that respect except Wells has more power.

 

What we saw last year was what happens when Crawford never has the several weeks of super hot streak that usually define his campaigns. But the man has never been a consistent baseball player.

 

Clearly a Crawford hater. Clearly a Nava lover. Clearly a biased argument.

 

I don't see how you can say "If the man doesn't hit .300, he doesn't do anything else right ot make his numbers strong offensively".

 

i.e. He doesn't walk.

 

Because he sure as hell can steal bases, disrupt pitchers when he gets on base, bunt for hits, and oh by the way he has hit .296 over his past 1,000 games, which includes 2011. He's fixed his stance and has returned to the way he was hitting in 2010.

 

And by the way, his defense is pretty good too.

 

He's a 4 time All Star, Gold Glove winner, been in the MVP talks twice, Silver Slugger winner.

 

Do you think it's possible that you MIGHT be putting a bit too much weight on 2011? And do you think it's possible that Crawford MIGHT have been a bit mistreated by Francona last year?? If you say no to either of those, then there's no point in arguing with you.

 

Crawford should be stuck in the 2 hole and shouldn't move all year.

[jung]

Well CC was one of the worst signings I have seen in my entire lifetime. The result being that nobody would touch that contract with a 10' pole.

 

Fortunately, we don't need to make some of these tough decisions on players right at this moment. However when the time comes, CC will play. Just don't tell me I have to be a believer in CC when the guy has not proven a single thing here yet. There is no reason for me to be anything but skeptical because it simply does not matter what CC does at least as it relates to his contract. He is never going to live up to that contract in my view. However I am quite confident that there are posters here that will want me to just be beside myself with happiness and completely satisfied when and if he just sort of turns back into an average, run of the mill, outfielder as opposed to the train wreck he was last year. I can definitely see that day coming and can read the posts in my head. But it hardly matters. CC is going nowhere thanks to the wisdom of the Red Sox brain trust circa 2010-2011.

 

What has been exposed now to the point that anybody with a pair of eyes can see is something that the forum has been discussing as a general topic for a long time now. The number of players that the Sox just sit on down in their system is unbelievable.

 

Granted, Kalish has been injured. But Kalish aside where were some of these other guys. Teams bring up players that have not proven themselves completely yet all the time. Not the Sox. You just about have to be a ready made all star to make your way up and given the choice between bringing in some vet with all of his baggage and take a chance on somebody in their system, the Sox will bring in a vet, baggage and all every single time.

 

Therein lies what I think should be the eventual answer to some of these questions.

 

Again the only guy that is not part of a potential answer is CC cause nobody will touch that contract. However, the Sox will likely have to explore what they might be able to get for Ells if only because he is one player that can bring you Starting Pitching, still the real need on this club and it is hard for me to see Ells and CC continuing on the same team....yet another aspect of the depths of badness on the CC deal.

 

I would strongly consider keeping the guys that have been in the Red Sox system over the guys that they have brought in even if that means Sweeney is traded or Ross is traded.

 

The Sox get the best of both worlds with guys like Kalish and Nava. They are such a refreshing change from the usual scowling crotchety vet we get around here or guys that are so set on playing the game their way that even when that is not working, by God they are gonna' play it their way. That is not to say that guys like Sweeney and Ross have been problems.

 

Are you telling me that you don't want to see more of guys in Red Sox uniforms running around the bases like Fenway is a playground and the opposing team is just a foil for their playfulness? You don't want to see Nava's and Kalish's up with the big club even if they are not the everyday players for it?

 

Those decisions between the players that have been in the system and the players that have been brought in are probably where the rubber meets the road for Sox Management. To have the developmental players stay and the players that were brought in traded will be the final acknowledgement that Sox Management does in fact sit on these guys down in their system. It will be final acknowledgement that it is and has been a bad business decision, a bad system decision, a bad player development decision and a bad team building decision.

 

Even the ever understated Mr. Remy made for him a resounding comment on the "refreshing" nature that these guys that have been toiling down on the farm bring to this club.

 

I think the one part of the Bill James concept of depending on matrices that gets lost is that it tends to guide management to the things that make these contemporary matrices most valuable. They allow you to find value that is sitting in somebody else's system. Unfortunately I think that also means that you end up ignoring value that is sitting in your own system.

 

Maybe the truth is that other than in SP, the Sox have an embarrassment of riches. If they are smart and certainly smarter than they have been, they will recognize that they are heading into an era where pitching and defense once again rule baseball. I think at this point the only thing that will stop that is rule changes prompted by MLB deciding that their product losses some of its luster if guys are not bashing the ball over the wall every 10th plate appearance. I suspect they are going to have to use some of their riches to secure better pitching. I do wonder if Sox Management will have the guts to be as honest with itself as it will need to be.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Why not? If he could be part of a package for a really good player? He's been in the Sox system awhile and few league wide or in the sox community had much use for him. If the right deal is there and they can swap his name where Kalish's used to be' date=' sell high.[/quote']

 

He's much more valuable to the Red Sox than he is in a trade, not only because there are no GM's in baseball who will trade for someone based on a 2 month heater, but also because the Sox have their other 5 OF (Kalish, Crawford, Ross, Sweeney, Ellsbury) all hitting the DL this year, and it's pretty likely that at least one of them will return to the DL this year.

[Bellhorn04]

Why not? If he could be part of a package for a really good player? He's been in the Sox system awhile and few league wide or in the sox community had much use for him. If the right deal is there and they can swap his name where Kalish's used to be' date=' sell high.[/quote']

 

Why not? Because he's getting on base like a madman, and most of all, he's helping us win games right now. Pretty simple.

[a700hitter]

Why not? If he could be part of a package for a really good player? He's been in the Sox system awhile and few league wide or in the sox community had much use for him. If the right deal is there and they can swap his name where Kalish's used to be' date=' sell high.[/quote']I think they could sell high on him.

[example1]

Well CC was one of the worst signings I have seen in my entire lifetime. The result being that nobody would touch that contract with a 10' pole.

 

Fortunately, we don't need to make some of these tough decisions on players right at this moment. However when the time comes, CC will play. Just don't tell me I have to be a believer in CC when the guy has not proven a single thing here yet. There is no reason for me to be anything but skeptical because it simply does not matter what CC does at least as it relates to his contract. He is never going to live up to that contract in my view. However I am quite confident that there are posters here that will want me to just be beside myself with happiness and completely satisfied when and if he just sort of turns back into an average, run of the mill, outfielder as opposed to the train wreck he was last year. I can definitely see that day coming and can read the posts in my head. But it hardly matters. CC is going nowhere thanks to the wisdom of the Red Sox brain trust circa 2010-2011.

 

What has been exposed now to the point that anybody with a pair of eyes can see is something that the forum has been discussing as a general topic for a long time now. The number of players that the Sox just sit on down in their system is unbelievable.

 

Granted, Kalish has been injured. But Kalish aside where were some of these other guys. Teams bring up players that have not proven themselves completely yet all the time. Not the Sox. You just about have to be a ready made all star to make your way up and given the choice between bringing in some vet with all of his baggage and take a chance on somebody in their system, the Sox will bring in a vet, baggage and all every single time.

 

Therein lies what I think should be the eventual answer to some of these questions.

 

Again the only guy that is not part of a potential answer is CC cause nobody will touch that contract. However, the Sox will likely have to explore what they might be able to get for Ells if only because he is one player that can bring you Starting Pitching, still the real need on this club and it is hard for me to see Ells and CC continuing on the same team....yet another aspect of the depths of badness on the CC deal.

 

I would strongly consider keeping the guys that have been in the Red Sox system over the guys that they have brought in even if that means Sweeney is traded or Ross is traded.

 

The Sox get the best of both worlds with guys like Kalish and Nava. They are such a refreshing change from the usual scowling crotchety vet we get around here or guys that are so set on playing the game their way that even when that is not working, by God they are gonna' play it their way. That is not to say that guys like Sweeney and Ross have been problems.

 

Are you telling me that you don't want to see more of guys in Red Sox uniforms running around the bases like Fenway is a playground and the opposing team is just a foil for their playfulness? You don't want to see Nava's and Kalish's up with the big club even if they are not the everyday players for it?

 

Those decisions between the players that have been in the system and the players that have been brought in are probably where the rubber meets the road for Sox Management. To have the developmental players stay and the players that were brought in traded will be the final acknowledgement that Sox Management does in fact sit on these guys down in their system. It will be final acknowledgement that it is and has been a bad business decision, a bad system decision, a bad player development decision and a bad team building decision.

 

Even the ever understated Mr. Remy made for him a resounding comment on the "refreshing" nature that these guys that have been toiling down on the farm bring to this club.

 

I think the one part of the Bill James concept of depending on matrices that gets lost is that it tends to guide management to the things that make these contemporary matrices most valuable. They allow you to find value that is sitting in somebody else's system. Unfortunately I think that also means that you end up ignoring value that is sitting in your own system.

 

Maybe the truth is that other than in SP, the Sox have an embarrassment of riches. If they are smart and certainly smarter than they have been, they will recognize that they are heading into an era where pitching and defense once again rule baseball. I think at this point the only thing that will stop that is rule changes prompted by MLB deciding that their product losses some of its luster if guys are not bashing the ball over the wall every 10th plate appearance. I suspect they are going to have to use some of their riches to secure better pitching. I do wonder if Sox Management will have the guts to be as honest with itself as it will need to be.

 

They deserve credit for finding and keeping Nava. Their whole approach was to have a farm system that produces guys who contribute without a ton of adjustment. If they immediately placed those guys in the big club they wouldn't have the depth to accommodate injury. An embarrassment of riches isn't a bad thing.

[kapsis21]

Why not? Because he's getting on base like a madman' date=' and most of all, [b']he's helping us win games right now.[/b] Pretty simple.

 

someone has to go when Crawford returns. Kalish is likely headed to AAA but he is providing the jolt to this team right now.. sucks if it happens and Kalish gets sent down.

I would say trade for Nava, but he has been the go to guy stepping up every time.

do hell with Crawford i say. make him for pinch hit appearance so he can steal a base or 2 but otherwise sit his ass

[jung]

Well the point about the embarrassment of riches is the one spot where the Sox do not have an embarrassment of riches, the most important component of all....Starting Pitching.

 

The Sox in my view will have to trade on some of their riches to get Starting Pitching.

[kapsis21]

Well the point about the embarrassment of riches is the one spot where the Sox do not have an embarrassment of riches, the most important component of all....Starting Pitching.

 

The Sox in my view will have to trade on some of their riches to get Starting Pitching.

 

i think if Dieck gets into his grove and stays away from that 1 pitch thats right down the pipe which causes damage. we might not need SP. i still have hope Dicek is going to step up. Lester is going to step up. Buchy and Douby are doing on and off right now.

we need to have our starting pitchers get deep if we can without trading some huge pieces that would be great but a trade for Nava, Doubbie and Iggy for Felix Hernandez maybe???

[Dojji]

Why not? Because he's getting on base like a madman' date=' and most of all, [b']he's helping us win games right now.[/b] Pretty simple.

 

Indeed. We have this tendency to overthink things around here.

 

Plugging in Crawford will happen because of front office politics -- and that's the worst of all possible reasons to do anything positionally.

[Bellhorn04]

Indeed. We have this tendency to overthink things around here.

 

Plugging in Crawford will happen because of front office politics -- and that's the worst of all possible reasons to do anything positionally.

 

I have to agree, Dojji. Nava's got a 2.0 WAR in 30 games, Crawdads had a 0.0 WAR in 2011, anyone can see that Nava is helping us win games, and a lot of people are going 'Sell high! Sell high!'. I think these message boards really bring out the armchair GM in all of us, me included. Sometimes the overthink is pretty funny.

[SemperFi Sox]

Plugging in Crawford will happen because he's getting paid $20 mil a season. You can't have that on the bench if he's healthy. I do expect him to rebound, he can't be worse than what he showed last season. Lost in every way.

[Dojji]

And the salary is not a good reason to play him if another player is more productive. The only reason to play the more highly paid player is to justify the contract and make an executive look good.

 

I'd rather win than make our executives look good.

[SemperFi Sox]

Crawford is .276 /.310/.414 at Fenway park. His speed and athleticism and speed can't be used in LF at Fenway either. The signing really made no sense in any way, tv ratings..? Big name?

 

Still, he has a track record of success. IMO Nava is playing over his head right now. Hopefully he's not because i would like to keep him.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Indeed. We have this tendency to overthink things around here.

 

Plugging in Crawford will happen because of front office politics -- and that's the worst of all possible reasons to do anything positionally.

 

No.

 

Plugging Crawford in will happen because of a track record of elite success at the MLB level.

 

Keeping Nava in when Crawford returns would happen because of a short term burst of BABIP fueled, unsustainable success that is heavily dependent on a small sample size.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Crawford is .276 /.310/.414 at Fenway park. His speed and athleticism and speed can't be used in LF at Fenway either. The signing really made no sense in any way, tv ratings..? Big name?

 

Still, he has a track record of success. IMO Nava is playing over his head right now. Hopefully he's not because i would like to keep him.

 

I hate it when people quote his numbers at Fenway. That makes no sense. When you play poorly at an away park, that doesn't mean that you have an inability to play there.

 

David Ortiz has a career .737 OPS at Angel Stadium. Think he'd be able to hit there if they signed him??

 

It's more likely a product of unfavorable pitching match ups than the ball park.

[jung]

Presuming everybody is healthy when CC comes back and lets say Nava performance is at about 3/4 of what it is today I would say that CC will play couple times a week to start...maybe three times per week. Nava might play a bit more than that depending on Center Field but I think they will both play and playing time will depend on who plays best and how CC does coming back from injury.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Presuming everybody is healthy when CC comes back and lets say Nava performance is at about 3/4 of what it is today I would say that CC will play couple times a week to start...maybe three times per week. Nava might play a bit more than that depending on Center Field but I think they will both play and playing time will depend on who plays best and how CC does coming back from injury.

 

 

What?!?!

 

Dude. Carl Crawford will play every day.

 

If they're letting Ryan Kalish play everyday after missing an entire year, how can you possibly say that they won't let Crawford play everyday??

 

3x per week?? No chance. Less than zero.

[Bellhorn04]

 

What?!?!

 

Dude. Carl Crawford will play every day.

 

If they're letting Ryan Kalish play everyday after missing an entire year, how can you possibly say that they won't let Crawford play everyday??

 

 

It's been a different story for Youkilis.

[FredLynn]

And the salary is not a good reason to play him if another player is more productive. The only reason to play the more highly paid player is to justify the contract and make an executive look good.

 

I'd rather win than make our executives look good.

 

Semperfi is right. That is exactly what will happen. You know it and so does everyone else. Doesn't mean its the right way to win the most games, but its what WILL happen.