The pessimism thread

[Celticdonnelly]

You are right about that observation. I try to offer my opinions and I don't agree or disagree with other posters because of who they are. I'm tired of posters that look to stick it to other posters on a regular basis no matter how small the issue. It must have confused a number of people on the optimist side that SBF is in complete agreement with them about WMB.

 

Isn't this the nature of these forums tho... brings in every mad bastard under the sun with crazy opinions.

[a700hitter]

Isn't this the nature of these forums tho... brings in every mad bastard under the sun with crazy opinions.

Yes, it is, and everyone is entitled to their opinion without being ridiculed. Crazy opinions are welcome.

Nasty bastards who insult people for their opinions are not.

[mvp 78]

I'm not patting myself on the back saying I got something right unlike a lot of others on here.

 

I wasn't surprised that I agreed with Fred about WMB. It happens a lot. Some people think things are black and white/realist vs optimist. I don't. I think the labels are kind of dumb and pointless.

[a700hitter]

I'm not patting myself on the back saying I got something right unlike a lot of others on here.

 

I wasn't surprised that I agreed with Fred about WMB. It happens a lot. Some people think things are black and white/realist vs optimist. I don't. I think the labels are kind of dumb and pointless.

I find back patting to be less offensive than poking.

 

And you are right that things are not black and white. If people responded to the posts instead of the posters, they would be surprised about the amount of overlap and agreement. After all, we are insanely well-informed fans about the Red Sox and we know the game pretty well. Most of the time, we can agree on who is good and who is bad on the field. The disagreements oddly enough come with regard to the FO and there capabilities and motives.

 

I have never been a guy who roots for or likes management. Let me be clear. I don't dislike them either. I am very open about that. I don't believe in cutting them slack. I expect them to do their job and get a good product on the field. I don't want to hear excuses from them. I don't want to hear excuses about building for the future, not sacrificing the future, etc., because 3 to 5 years ago 2012 was the future and we were hearing the same s***. I'll listen about the future and be excited, but it cuts them no slack from me with regard to today's team-- never. Many people disagree with that philosophy and that's okay.

[mvp 78]

5 years ago we weren't talking about the future. We were on pace to win a WS.

[a700hitter]

5 years ago we weren't talking about the future. We were on pace to win a WS.

That's why I said 3-5 years ago.

[SoxSport]

Their biggest problem right now is the conflict between Valentine and Cherington. Henry has to settle that or it will kill the season.

[mvp 78]

I think there is a bit of conflict between the GM and manager on many teams. I think that story is a bit overblown. The problem is that the starters are taking a while to heat up and their leadoff and cleanup hitters are on the DL.

[Bellhorn04]

Funny how things like a conflict between the GM and manager only pop up as stories when the team is losing.

[SoxSport]

I think there is a bit of conflict between the GM and manager on many teams. I think that story is a bit overblown. The problem is that the starters are taking a while to heat up and their leadoff and cleanup hitters are on the DL.

 

You're right. That's what that guy said in the Moneyball book. But Lucchino/Henry compounded the problem by making the manager search too public, giving the front office too much power, and then picked their own manager--making Cherington look bad.

 

My guess Lucchino is now stroking Cherington--at Valentine's expense.

[seabeachfred]

5 years ago we weren't talking about the future. We were on pace to win a WS.

 

You would have to mention the 2007 team, wouldn't you MVP? That is my favorite Red Sox team and it was a terrific year for us. In fact, strange as it may seem, on Dirt Dogs I was actually one of three posters who told some of the doubters that we would not only hold on and win the division but would go all the way. I still wonder where I got my balls to do that since I tend to get very nervous when the Red Sox seem to go in the tank but I just loved that team.

 

I think all of us should agree that the front office is there for open season on our part if we think they are screwing up, and players can also come under attack but we should all refrain from attacking one another---and I have to say for the most part the vast majority of us do just that. Disagreements are part of what make a board like this enjoyable and we all try to argue our points, and to be honest I really have had only a couple of people who have irritated the crap out of me with their personal attacks. I have really gotten to like the people here and hope they understand when I go off the handle I'm mad only at the front office and some of the players who I don't think are giving their all or doing the job.

[seabeachfred]

Funny how things like a conflict between the GM and manager only pop up as stories when the team is losing.

 

For the most part you are spot on with that assertion Bob, but mark my words, a potential bruhaha is shaping up very soon when Youkilis comes off the DL and Cherington tried to force him back in the lineup at Middlebrooks' expense. This is lunacy taken to the Nth degree. What should be done in my opinion is give Youk the choice of tooling up with his outfield play or asking for a trade. I think the team will go in the tank if Kevin is given his position back and Will is sent back down. This is not the way to try to build a winning team and this is no time to start doing something like that when we are finally (I hope) starting to put some good games together.

[jung]

I can understand the Sox front office in its desire to get Youk back on track. I don't think it has anything to do with fairness to Youk and any of this "you don't lose your position to an injury ********". They want Youk back there because they believe Youk will make it back.

 

Lets try this one. Given the fact that WMB has not even made a full turn through the AL yet, would our chances be better with a healthy Youk playing the way he was capable of playing before his injury in 2011? I would have to say that the answer is without question yes.

 

I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell of Youk making it back to what he was before his injury. He will not in my view fall completely apart but he will never get close to justifying a $13M paycheck again. Having spend incredible amounts of money poorly in the last few seasons it seems to me that the Sox have drawn a line in the sand on Youk and are not willing to give up their $13M without a fight when in fact, the horse appears to have already left the barn.

[SoxSport]

For the most part you are spot on with that assertion Bob' date=' but mark my words, a potential bruhaha is shaping up very soon when Youkilis comes off the DL and Cherington tried to force him back in the lineup at Middlebrooks' expense. This is lunacy taken to the Nth degree. What should be done in my opinion is give Youk the choice of tooling up with his outfield play or asking for a trade. I think the team will go in the tank if Kevin is given his position back and Will is sent back down. This is not the way to try to build a winning team and this is no time to start doing something like that when we are finally (I hope) starting to put some good games together.[/quote']

 

Sure, but what do you do with Youkilis? A real dilemma. They have him rehabbing in Pawtucket for now. He should stay there until he proves he is healthy and hitting. You have to let the Middlebrooks thing play out.

 

I agree the Red Sox must have some morale problems with the management conflicts going on. I don't give this club much of a shot of getting back into contention this year--mainly because of management conflicts which are creating disharmony. The team chemistry right now is also not very good. And it started with the Crawford/AdGon deals.

[SoxSport]

I can understand the Sox front office in its desire to get Youk back on track. I don't think it has anything to do with fairness to Youk and any of this "you don't lose your position to an injury ********". They want Youk back there because they believe Youk will make it back.

 

Lets try this one. Given the fact that WMB has not even made a full turn through the AL yet, would our chances be better with a healthy Youk playing the way he was capable of playing before his injury in 2011? I would have to say that the answer is without question yes.

 

I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell of Youk making it back to what he was before his injury. He will not in my view fall completely apart but he will never get close to justifying a $13M paycheck again. Having spend incredible amounts of money poorly in the last few seasons it seems to me that the Sox have drawn a line in the sand on Youk and are not willing to give up their $13M without a fight when in fact, the horse appears to have already left the barn.

 

The simple matter is: salary talks. They are paying Youkilis $11 mil this year. In addition, the determining factor is often options available. They keep lesser players who are out of options over better players with options. That's the way they operate. Middlebrooks has options. That's his ticket to AAA.

 

That was the problem, by the way, with Kalish a couple of years ago. James had him breaking out in '11 for Boston after playing some in '10, but they had Drew ahead of him paying him $14mil in his last year, so Kalish stayed in Pawtucket and got seriously hurt--hasn't been seen since. That has cost Kalish a couple of years off his career. A move that backfired for the Sox, since Drew went down, too, but after Kalish was hurt and unavailable to replace him.

 

You could say injuries have devasted the Sox the last few years.

[mvp 78]

Youk hasn't lost his position due to injury, he lost it due to sucking for almost a year now.

[seabeachfred]

The simple matter is: salary talks. They are paying Youkilis $11 mil this year. In addition, the determining factor is often options available. They keep lesser players who are out of options over better players with options. That's the way they operate. Middlebrooks has options. That's his ticket to AAA.

 

That was the problem, by the way, with Kalish a couple of years ago. James had him breaking out in '11 for Boston after playing some in '10, but they had Drew ahead of him paying him $14mil in his last year, so Kalish stayed in Pawtucket and got seriously hurt--hasn't been seen since. That has cost Kalish a couple of years off his career. A move that backfired for the Sox, since Drew went down, too, but after Kalish was hurt and unavailable to replace him.

 

You could say injuries have devasted the Sox the last few years.

 

You could say that stupidity has devastated the Sox the last few years as well. As with Youkilis, the front office should have been aware that Drew was an injury waiting to happen as that had been his reputation his whole career. It is thus now with Youkilis who has been banged up the better part of now three seasons. He is injury prone PERIOD; his body is breaking down badly and we risk sending Middlebrooks down to keep him around. What if Will goes back down and gets hurt as Kalish did? No, SoxSport, this time the Red Sox must try and play it smart for a change. On Dennis and Callahan this morning one of the said that Youk wants to he traded where he could work for a good contract next year because he won't get it in Boston.

 

This is the time to learn from our mistakes in the Drew-Kalish disaster, but as I've said often I have zero confidence in our front office Prune Face Henry has his head up his ass and his mind elsewhere, Lucchino is too busy trying to exercise control over everyone to see what's happening in front of his eyes, and Cherington is not only in over his head, he is a total dweeb who is a risk adverse incompetent jerk.

 

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[Bellhorn04]

Note to Fred and all Talksox posters: please review to see if your post went up twice and if it did, delete the second one. There's some little glitch going on with the posting.

[SoxSport]

I agree Kalish should have stuck as backup OFder in '11. Knowing Drew was so fragile. But the FO gave its usual explanation of wanting Kalish to get more experience. They didn't learn their lesson. That's clear. Nothing has changed. Same bunch that went sour the last few years under Epstein.

[seabeachfred]

Youk hasn't lost his position due to injury' date=' he lost it due to sucking for almost a year now.[/quote']

 

Attaway big guy, go get 'em. I feel the same way, the only difference being I don't want Middlebrooks sent down. Up to now he seems to be finding his way very well and if you notice he seems to do well with men in scoring position. He will get a big test on this road trip with good pitching staffs in Tampa and Philly and an improved one in Baltimore. I just want to see him perform there instead of being sent down.

 

For the record MVP, on my way to see my doctor this afternoon I tuned into ESPN Los Angeles Radio and heard special guest Buster Olney say that he thinks the Dodgers, with a lot of money to spend and new rich owner, will be a buyer this summer and with a weak far system would be willing to pay good money and accept salary to improve their chances of getting to the post season. The one player he mentioned??? Kevin Youkilis. Food for thought for Prune Face, Il Duce and the Patsy.

[seabeachfred]

Note to Fred and all Talksox posters: please review to see if your post went up twice and if it did' date=' delete the second one. There's some little glitch going on with the posting.[/quote']

 

Bob, I caught it after your message and I deleted the duplicate. Just for the record, though, there has been trouble on my computer when I post here. I will post something and I often get a blank screen after I hit post, or I get this page cannot be shown. Sometimes I have to wait a minute and post a second time to get my post on the board Often I don't even know if my post made it because I don't see it on the board. I wonder if anyone else has this problem.

[Bellhorn04]

Bob' date=' I caught it after your message and I deleted the duplicate. Just for the record, though, there has been trouble on my computer when I post here. I will post something and I often get a blank screen after I hit post, or I get this page cannot be shown. Sometimes I have to wait a minute and post a second time to get my post on the board Often I don't even know if my post made it because I don't see it on the board. I wonder if anyone else has this problem.[/quote']

 

I have experienced a long delay sometimes before the post goes up and it has caused me to 'double-post' a few times.

[SoxSport]

I'll put this in the pessimism thread.

 

Check out Cafardo's column tonite. He has a penchant for dropping inside info on the Red Sox.

 

He says tonite McClure, the pitching coach, was Cherington's choice, not Valentine's. So it looks like the front office picked Vs coaching staff? Valentine made a lot of concessions managing in Boston. I hope he doesn't live to regret it.