How about Daniel Bard so far?

[a700hitter]

Why are you guys seizing on the Craig Hansen remark? Is that really the issue?

[jacksonianmarch]

Craig Hansen was rushed to the bigs, had no success and dealt him. Bard is someone they polished in the minors, brought him to the bigs at the right time and he dominated in a role out of the pen. They couldnt be more different

[Station 13]

Bard and Hansen in the same sentence? What?

 

Hansen was a total bust. He is a bigger bust than Andrew Miller. At least Miller seem to have figure it out now as a reliever. Hansen was unfixable.

[a700hitter]

As we continue to debate the irrelevant, i.e., Hansen.

[FredLynn]

Craig Hansen was rushed to the bigs' date=' had no success and dealt him. Bard is someone they polished in the minors, brought him to the bigs at the right time and he dominated in a role out of the pen. They couldnt be more different[/quote']

 

The similarity is that they are both fireballing right handed relief pitchers. Hansen went down the tubes immediately; Bard waited until he became a SP. There are both similarities and dissimilarities.

[mvp 78]

Daniel Bard. Craig Hanson. What could they possibly have in common?

Both are hard throwing right handed relievers. One smelled success that the other didn't, but thats where the dissimilarities end. They are both very similar types of pitchers. One flamed out; the other is flaming out. Very similar to those who choose to look at this objectively.

 

Hard to say that viewpoint is objective at all.

 

Hansen never had success the way Bard has in the past. All thos worry about his mental state is a little far fetched imo.

[Station 13]

BTW Bard can't be send to the minors without clearing waivers now.

[Elktonnick]

Hard to say that viewpoint is objective at all.

 

Hansen never had success the way Bard has in the past. All thos worry about his mental state is a little far fetched imo.

 

I don't think but rather quite the opposite. It is clear that one of Bard's problem starting is a mental one. He admitted as much himself. The question, and I think this was raised this AM on the baseball show as well, is will this funk (as Bard himself called it ) carry over to his return to the bullpen, if and when he returns. I think that isd a fair question. He has lost his velocity and his fastball comamnd. I am not so sure one can unquestionablely say those will return to the status quo ante once he transitions back to the pen.

[Dojji]

I'm not buying it. He's inconsistent and raw, but that's to be expected given his inexperience. He's showing an ability to go out and do battle that I'd love to see our other more skilled starters emulate.

 

How many people thought that he wouldn't have to be lifted from any of his first 7 starts before the 5th inning ended? How many people thought he'd have more games where he logged 6+ innings (4) than starts where he lasted less than 6? (3?). He's still averaging right around a quality start -- even a half decent outing puts him right on that mark and if you're getting that from your 5th, then you're getting what you need.

 

Yeah the results over the last 4 starts aren't sexy -- but he's doing what a 5th starter needs to do. Go out there and battle into the 6th most nights and give the offense a chance to win. that's what Bard's doing. And he's doing it consistently.

 

This kid has shown all the fight and mental toughness I want to see and he's DURABLE. That's danged important. Proficiency and skill he needs to gain, and he's going about gaining it the right way. I'm very impressed so far -- and if you remember the offseason argument I was a HUGE bard skeptic.

[a700hitter]

I'm not buying it. He's inconsistent and raw, but that's to be expected given his inexperience. He's showing an ability to go out and do battle that I'd love to see our other more skilled starters emulate.

 

How many people thought that he wouldn't have to be lifted from any of his first 7 starts before the 5th inning ended? How many people thought he'd have more games where he logged 6+ innings (4) than starts where he lasted less than 6? (3?). He's still averaging right around a quality start -- even a half decent outing puts him right on that mark and if you're getting that from your 5th, then you're getting what you need.

 

Yeah the results over the last 4 starts aren't sexy -- but he's doing what a 5th starter needs to do. Go out there and battle into the 6th most nights and give the offense a chance to win. that's what Bard's doing. And he's doing it consistently.

 

This kid has shown all the fight and mental toughness I want to see and he's DURABLE. That's danged important. Proficiency and skill he needs to gain, and he's going about gaining it the right way. I'm very impressed so far -- and if you remember the offseason argument I was a HUGE bard skeptic.

He has not brought exceptional stuff to the mound in any of his starts, and he has not even shown flashes of exceptional stuff in his starts. He hasn't had a put away pitch.

[ORS]

The similarity is that they are both fireballing right handed relief pitchers. Hansen went down the tubes immediately; Bard waited until he became a SP. There are both similarities and dissimilarities.

Don't forget the brown hair.

[ORS]

He has not brought exceptional stuff to the mound in any of his starts' date=' and he has not even shown flashes of exceptional stuff in his starts. He hasn't had a put away pitch.[/quote']

This isn't true, his slider was excellent in his early starts, and he was getting a lot of swinging strikes, a good indicator of stuff. Where that pitch has gone subsequently is a mystery to me, but we've seen an out pitch.

[vtsox2004]

I loved Bard out of the pen but we should give him a few more starts before passing judgement.

[Bellhorn04]

Just look at Brandon Morrow, folks. He was a hard-throwing reliever his first two seasons, and now in only his fourth season as a starter, he looks like he may have arrived as a really good one. We're just going to need some patience.

[a700hitter]

This isn't true' date=' his slider was excellent in his early starts, and he was getting a lot of swinging strikes, a good indicator of stuff. Where that pitch has gone subsequently is a mystery to me, but we've seen an out pitch.[/quote']I'm not saying this to be snarky, but did you watch those games? I missed one of his starts-- that was in the afternoon on a weekday. Unless you are talking about that game, I really have not see any exceptional stuff from him. He has lacked a put away pitch in the games I have seen.

[a700hitter]

Just look at Brandon Morrow' date=' folks. He was a hard-throwing reliever his first two seasons, and now in only his [b']fourth[/b] season as a starter, he looks like he may have arrived as a really good one. We're just going to need some patience.

But his velocity did not dip so much going into the starting rotation, and he remained a big strike out pitcher throughout.

[Bellhorn04]

But his velocity did not dip so much going into the starting rotation' date=' and he remained a big strike out pitcher throughout.[/quote']

 

Agreed.

[Station 13]

Bard velocity started dipping last August. He may be damaged with the way Francona constantly use him for 1+. He was pitching about every other night.

[mvp 78]

Bard velocity started dipping last August. He may be damaged with the way Francona constantly use him for 1+. He was pitching about every other night.

 

70 games 73 innings. He didn't go 1+ very often. Can't fault Tito on this one.

[Dojji]

He has not brought exceptional stuff to the mound in any of his starts' date=' and he has not even shown flashes of exceptional stuff in his starts. He hasn't had a put away pitch.[/quote']

 

Which just highlights how well he's doing the mental side of the job right now. If he was getting buy on nothing but overwhelming stuff I'd actually be more skeptical. The fact that he hasn't had it means that he's had to battle and be smarter, and unlike Buchholz, he's been able to cope.

 

We weren't going to get ace numbers out of Bard this year. Based on what I expected to get, we're seeing the upper 50 percentiles every night, so there's plenty to be encouraged about.

[example1]

Daniel Bard. Craig Hanson. What could they possibly have in common?

Both are hard throwing right handed relievers. One smelled success that the other didn't, but thats where the dissimilarities end. They are both very similar types of pitchers. One flamed out; the other is flaming out. Very similar to those who choose to look at this objectively.

 

Just another example of you overstating something. Bard isn't "flaming out". Absurd.

 

He could be converted back to reliever and have a really good MLB career, or even turn it around as a starter. Hansen is done.

 

You are ready to write off a 27 year old guy like Bard who many other teams would gladly take. And you do this not so much because it is factually warranted, but because you thrive on sensationalism and making grandiose claims whenever you can. We all know the schtick.

[FredLynn]

Just another example of you overstating something. Bard isn't "flaming out". Absurd.

 

He could be converted back to reliever and have a really good MLB career, or even turn it around as a starter. Hansen is done.

 

You are ready to write off a 27 year old guy like Bard who many other teams would gladly take. And you do this not so much because it is factually warranted, but because you thrive on sensationalism and making grandiose claims whenever you can. We all know the schtick.

 

Daniel Bard ERA in 2011: 3.33

Daniel Bard career ERA: 3.23

Daniel Bard ERS in 2012: 4.85

Daniel Bard WHIP in 2011: 0.959

Daniel Bard WHIP in 2012: 1.547

Craig Hanson ERA in 2008: 5.58

Craig Hanson WHIP in 2008: 1.696

 

He may not have "flamed out" yet, but he is well on the road to doing so. These numbers are not encouraging. In Hanson's last year in Boston, 2008, his numbers were somewhat worse than Bard's, but not a whole lot worse-less than 3/4 rpg and similar WHIPs.

I have not said that Bard is a lost cause, but he could get that way in a hurry if he is not returned to the pen where he has enjoyed success. I think he has the mental toughness of silly putty; he needs to be returned to familiar surroundings very soon. And if he cannot regain the velocity on his very straight fastball he will probably continue the downhill slide towards Craig Hanson-like stats.

[Bellhorn04]

You can't really compare ERA's of relievers to ERA's of starters. Everyone expected Bard's ERA to be higher as a starter. Craig Hansen never started a game.

 

Brandon Morrow is a much better comp for Bard.

[FredLynn]

You can't really compare ERA's of relievers to ERA's of starters. Everyone expected Bard's ERA to be higher as a starter. Craig Hansen never started a game.

 

Brandon Morrow is a much better comp for Bard.

 

Sure you can.

And I used Hanson because I think that there are some similarities in the two. Both relied on velocity to get guys out. Hanson flamed out; Bard is on that path too.

[Bellhorn04]

Sure you can.

And I used Hanson because I think that there are some similarities in the two. Both relied on velocity to get guys out. Hanson flamed out; Bard is on that path too.

 

Hansen didn't flame out; he sucked from beginning to end. He could not get major league hitters out at any time. Velocity is the only thing in common. You picked Hansen because he was an easy example of a Red Sox pitcher who failed.

[mvp 78]

Hansen didn't flame out; he sucked from beginning to end. He could not get major league hitters out at any time. Velocity is the only thing in common. You picked Hansen because he was an easy example of a Red Sox pitcher who failed.

 

There are similarities and dissimilarities.

[SoxSport]

The latest AL stats today have the Sox no.2 in hitting and next to last in pitching. No.2 in hitting even with the injuries they've had in their lineup. Texas is no.1. The top pitching teams are Texas, Baltimore, Toronto, Oakland, and TB. Texas is no. 1 in hitting and pitching--clearly the best AL team.Nolan Ryan does it right.

 

The W-L records generally correlate with pitching, not hitting. It seems like the Red Sox management hasn't gotten that message. They continue to spend most of their money on hitting. This is the mentality of the early Yawkey teams that never won anything. When the Sox have won, they have won with pitching.

 

Three of the top 5 pitching teams are in the Red Sox division. They are all higher than the Sox right now.

Unless there is a pitching collapse with those teams, the Sox probably won't make the playoffs, no matter what happens with CC and Ells.

 

Are they satisfied with Bard's ERA/Whip numbers as a starter? If they are, it is maybe a symptom of the problem.

 

After Bailey's injury, the Sox effectively downgraded their bullpen by keeping Bard as a starter. And he hasn't been good enough as a starter to offset the downgrade. That's one of their problems in a nutshell.

[Bellhorn04]

There are similarities and dissimilarities.

 

I'm going to use Sandy Koufax as a comp for Bard. Like Bard, Koufax threw hard. Like Bard, Koufax initially struggled as a starter. In 1956 he had a 4.91 ERA and a 1.62 WHIP. Pretty similar to Bard. Based on this I think it's clear that Bard is headed for the Hall of Fame.

[ellsburyforMVP]

I'm going to use Sandy Koufax as a comp for Bard. Like Bard' date=' Koufax threw hard. Like Bard, Koufax initially struggled as a starter. In 1956 he had a 4.91 ERA and a 1.62 WHIP. Pretty similar to Bard. Based on this I think it's clear that Bard is headed for the Hall of Fame.[/quote']

 

[mvp 78]

I'm going to use Sandy Koufax as a comp for Bard. Like Bard' date=' Koufax threw hard. Like Bard, Koufax initially struggled as a starter. In 1956 he had a 4.91 ERA and a 1.62 WHIP. Pretty similar to Bard. Based on this I think it's clear that Bard is headed for the Hall of Fame.[/quote']

 

It took Randy Johnson 6 years to become a HOF type pitcher too... Lots of flamethrower comps we could use.