Bard to Rotation a Mistake?

[redsoxfan3]

Well' date=' To me this is getting clearer... Aceves might be the "solution" at this point at 4th spot. Reinforce the BP. Send Bard to BP where he belongs. Shuffle the 5th spot with the others, and find out who could be the 5th guy; there's no more gentlemen, we decided not to bring another SP. Crossing fingers and hopefully FO's decisions work out.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't mind Aceves in the rotation one bit. Doubront will most likely be the guy for the 5th spot to start the season. Cook did not do bad last night and Padilla has consinstently thrown strikes all Spring. If Doubront does not work out, I think either Cook or Padilla could temporarily fill-in. I think our options are not horrible. They could obviously be better, but I think that we will get better production than what we got from Lackey. I would also look to consider Cook or Padilla in the bullpen as a long reliever/spot starter, especially if Aceves gets moved to the rotation.

[example1]

If Bard gets outpitchd then he should be in the bullpen. This team would suddenly have a really solid pen if Bard, Melancon and Bailey were all there.

 

The question is, where in the pen would Bard pitch? Does he go back to setup?

 

I would feel pretty bad for him if that were the case. he's earned a chance to close or start IMO. In interviews earlier in the offseason he said he'd be willing to do either as long as he moves from setup to something more prominant.

 

I know that most of us don't actually care about his feelings and such (I don't care that much), but he deserves a promotion in one capacity or another. The difference between starter/closer and setup man is millions and millions of dollars.

 

Given the importance of the setup role, would it be unreasonable to give him a contract extension for that role? The Yankees are paying Soriano almost $12m a year.

 

It just feels like the Sox are dicking around a pitcher who is both good and seems to be a decent guy. Let's hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.

[Station 13]

They are screwing him around. Look at his career stats at Fenway in 3 year: 1.71 ERA, 0.86 WHIP, if he isn't closing, yes that's screwing him out of what he been groom to do.

 

They hold the cards because he doesn't have leverage in negotiations or arbitration.

[iortiz]

Bailey hasn't impressed me that much either, so... Let Bard and Bailey compete for the closer position for a couple of months. The winner should be the closer.

[Station 13]

Bailey hasn't impressed me that much either' date=' so... Let Bard and Bailey compete for the closer position for a couple of months. The winner should be the closer.[/quote']

 

Don't see that happening. Bard closes only if Bailey is on the DL or just completed melted in Boston.

[RedSoxNC84]

Don't see that happening. Bard closes only if Bailey is on the DL or just completed melted in Boston.

 

One or both of those is pretty likely I think.

[jung]

Well one piece of information that has filtered out of the last couple of days is that maybe dice will be ready sooner rather than later. That still sounds like July to me but earlier than August.

 

Make Bard the 5 till dice comes back. That becomes his true shot at starting. He has the rest of spring and until dice comes back to show V and everybody else he can get it done. That gives him time to work out his mechanics hopefully once and for all and relieves everybody of the decision to stick him right back in the 8th inning role while he is struggling with these mechanics.

 

He is most vulnerable to these issues when he just comes into the game. Don't tell me this is because he is trying to start because this is what happened to him at the end of last season in the 8th inning role.

 

Let him be the 5 until dice comes back and make a decision at that point what to do with him. Nobody will be able to argue that Bard has not gotten a good look at being a starter. To be honest I actually think that if he gets his mechanics worked out Bard is likely a home run as a starter and the Sox will be able to pat themselves on the back big time for having worked him through the process and gotten a a legit starter for their trouble.

[RedSoxNC84]

Well one piece of information that has filtered out of the last couple of days is that maybe dice will be ready sooner rather than later. That still sounds like July to me but earlier than August.

 

Make Bard the 5 till dice comes back. That becomes his true shot at starting. He has the rest of spring and until dice comes back to show V and everybody else he can get it done. That gives him time to work out his mechanics hopefully once and for all and relieves everybody of the decision to stick him right back in the 8th inning role while he is struggling with these mechanics.

 

He is most vulnerable to these issues when he just comes into the game. Don't tell me this is because he is trying to start because this is what happened to him at the end of last season in the 8th inning role.

 

Let him be the 5 until dice comes back and make a decision at that point what to do with him. Nobody will be able to argue that Bard has not gotten a good look at being a starter. To be honest I actually think that if he gets his mechanics worked out Bard is likely a home run as a starter and the Sox will be able to pat themselves on the back big time for having worked him through the process and gotten a a legit starter for their trouble.

 

I say let Bard start in the 4th spot and either Cook/Padilla/Doubront in the 5th spot, or maybe even split time at the 5th starter's spot to see who does better. Then in June/July/Whenever Dice comes back, move Bard to the pen, and move Aceves into the rotation, and make Dice our long reliever/swingman. I don't think he'll be ready to start necessarily when he comes back, so why not let him get some pen work instead. He may be useful from that position.

 

That way they can limit Bard's inning count by splitting him at setup with Melancon, or split at him closer with Bailey. Aceves probably wouldn't have thrown as many innings as Bard by this point, so having him do a little starter's work shouldn't be a problem.

[Station 13]

Bard is working out the windup for the first time in 5 year, and Bobby is a total dick toward Bard. This is going to take time. Seems like they expect instant result. Unrealistic.

[RedSoxNC84]

Bard is working out the windup for the first time in 5 year' date=' and Bobby is a total dick toward Bard. This is going to take time. Seems like they expect instant result. Unrealistic.[/quote']

 

It is unrealistic. I don't expect the same results as some seem to be expecting. As long as Bard manages to keep his walks down, and eats some innings at 4.50 ERA I'm happy.

 

Can't be worse than it was last season.

[Elktonnick]

Bard is working out the windup for the first time in 5 year' date=' and Bobby is a total dick toward Bard. This is going to take time. Seems like they expect instant result. Unrealistic.[/quote']

 

Sportswriter Jackie Mac has a different take. She believes BV is trying to toughen up Bard's mental attitude. She believes that the rap on Bard is he doesn't have the mental attitude tough enough to close or start. I concur. I always thought that Bard isn't mentally prepared to either close or start yet. As Yogi once reportedly said "Ninety percent of this game is half mental."

[YAZMAN]

Sportswriter Jackie Mac has a different take. She believes BV is trying to toughen up Bard's mental attitude. She believes that the rap on Bard is he doesn't have the mental attitude tough enough to close or start. I concur. I always thought that Bard isn't mentally prepared to either close or start yet. As Yogi once reportedly said "Ninety percent of this game is half mental."

 

Great, so by the time BV is done with him, he'll actually be the basket case I thought he was when he came up.

[Dojji]

Great' date=' so by the time BV is done with him, he'll actually be the basket case I thought he was when he came up.[/quote']

 

Because presuming failure is a great way to maintain a sane and healthy mental outlook.

[RedSoxNC84]

Because presuming failure is a great way to maintain a sane and healthy mental outlook.

 

That's what my parent's marriage counselor said.

[Elktonnick]

Great' date=' so by the time BV is done with him, he'll actually be the basket case I thought he was when he came up.[/quote']

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Elktonnick]

That's what my parent's marriage counselor said.

 

You only get 2 but very good nonetheless.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[jung]

I do not think Bard is getting a far shot either.

 

I do not like what V is doing with him regardless of his intentions.

 

I hope to God that Bard has an outing where he can resolve the walks issues as V has a built in excuse to nail him if he does not improve his ball:strike ratio and cuts down on his walks especially early in innings.

[example1]

The only way that Bobby V can actually pull off being such a dick is if he is even better at making it up to players/smoothing things over behind the scenes. I think there's a chance that's what he's doing.

 

The line of reasoning would be: all we see is him appearing like a dick off the field. The media and fans believe he runs a really tight--perhaps too tight--ship. In private, he spends a lot of time "processing" with players, genuinely connecting with them, making up for his stupid statements, and building loyalty and trust. What makes me think he might do this is his very direct approach to both Beckett and Crawford. Many managers would have either disregarded or wished-away those situations, but he confronted it head-on.

 

If all he does is talk s*** about them in public then I think all of us are right to be concerned. But if we are to assume that there is some reasoning and intelligence behind what he's doing (and that he wouldn't be f***ing up so early in his tenure), then perhaps his approach is actually considerably more sophistocated than the bull-in-the-china-shop approach he shows outwardly. Let's hope that's the case.

[Elktonnick]

The only way that Bobby V can actually pull off being such a dick is if he is even better at making it up to players/smoothing things over behind the scenes. I think there's a chance that's what he's doing.

 

The line of reasoning would be: all we see is him appearing like a dick off the field. The media and fans believe he runs a really tight--perhaps too tight--ship. In private, he spends a lot of time "processing" with players, genuinely connecting with them, making up for his stupid statements, and building loyalty and trust. What makes me think he might do this is his very direct approach to both Beckett and Crawford. Many managers would have either disregarded or wished-away those situations, but he confronted it head-on.

 

If all he does is talk s*** about them in public then I think all of us are right to be concerned. But if we are to assume that there is some reasoning and intelligence behind what he's doing (and that he wouldn't be f***ing up so early in his tenure), then perhaps his approach is actually considerably more sophistocated than the bull-in-the-china-shop approach he shows outwardly. Let's hope that's the case.

 

Bard had better get a thicker skin. It isn't about what is best for Bard or being fair to Bard. Somehow along the way perhaps before BV even got to the job someone led Bard believe he would be a starter. He was entitled to the job. That kind of attitude got this team in trouble. There are several candidates for the 4 and 5 th starters role. It is what is fair to all and what is best for the team. If Bard get a starters job under BV it will because he has earned it and is mentally tough enough to keep it. My advice to Bard is stop feeling sorry for yourself pull yourself together and pitch.

[a700hitter]

The only way that Bobby V can actually pull off being such a dick is if he is even better at making it up to players/smoothing things over behind the scenes. I think there's a chance that's what he's doing.

 

The line of reasoning would be: all we see is him appearing like a dick off the field. The media and fans believe he runs a really tight--perhaps too tight--ship. In private, he spends a lot of time "processing" with players, genuinely connecting with them, making up for his stupid statements, and building loyalty and trust. What makes me think he might do this is his very direct approach to both Beckett and Crawford. Many managers would have either disregarded or wished-away those situations, but he confronted it head-on.

 

If all he does is talk s*** about them in public then I think all of us are right to be concerned. But if we are to assume that there is some reasoning and intelligence behind what he's doing (and that he wouldn't be f***ing up so early in his tenure), then perhaps his approach is actually considerably more sophistocated than the bull-in-the-china-shop approach he shows outwardly. Let's hope that's the case.

What kind of s*** is Bobby V talking about his players? I haven't seen anything that I think would cause a problem.

[Dojji]

Bard had better get a thicker skin. It isn't about what is best for Bard or being fair to Bard. Somehow along the way perhaps before BV even got to the job someone led Bard believe he would be a starter. He was entitled to the job. That kind of attitude got this team in trouble. There are several candidates for the 4 and 5 th starters role. It is what is fair to all and what is best for the team. If Bard get a starters job under BV it will because he has earned it and is mentally tough enough to keep it. My advice to Bard is stop feeling sorry for yourself pull yourself together and pitch.

 

Agreed.

 

And if it was Lucky that guaranteed him a job as the starter (he does seem the least unlikely candidate) then we fired the wrong guy.

[jung]

People don't change overnight if at all. I don't know what V is trying to do with Bard but I think questioning his commitment to starting after two stints is a bit much.

 

Frankly I don't think V wants Bard starting unless he is so terrific that it suits V's short term mentality and goals to have him start. V is all about what happens this year. That is why he wants Iggy up and wants Bard in the pen. While Bard has much more upside as a starter, V is quite prepared to trade that for whatever suits him this year.

 

That is fine. Just don't kid yourselves that this is anything other than V recognizing that he likely not long for this place and wants to make as much out of this year as Manager for the Sox as he possibly can. That may even be what LL has in mind. It will likely create some additional conflicts between Baseball Operations and V beyond Bard and Iggy.

 

As for the two current issues of short term goals and long term results, I think Iggy up makes sense because he can mean additional wins for this team this year and as I have said before, I think the horse was out of the barn on Iggy gaining hitting prowess in the minors before V got here. It was the Sox FO that pushed him up to AAA without giving him time to adapt to AA pitchers. Iggy is not going to make his money with his bat anyway.

 

However screwing up Bard even worse than he is for short term goals bothers me. Bard is a legitimate talent that has the potential to be a big time home run for the Sox as a starter if they handle him the right way. I don't like what V is doing with him and I don't like the fact that he is doing it to satisfy his own short term goals.

[Elktonnick]

People don't change overnight if at all. I don't know what V is trying to do with Bard but I think questioning his commitment to starting after two stints is a bit much.

 

Frankly I don't think V wants Bard starting unless he is so terrific that it suits V's short term mentality and goals to have him start. V is all about what happens this year. That is why he wants Iggy up and wants Bard in the pen. While Bard has much more upside as a starter, V is quite prepared to trade that for whatever suits him this year.

 

That is fine. Just don't kid yourselves that this is anything other than V recognizing that he likely not long for this place and wants to make as much out of this year as Manager for the Sox as he possibly can. That may even be what LL has in mind. It will likely create some additional conflicts between Baseball Operations and V beyond Bard and Iggy.

 

As for the two current issues of short term goals and long term results, I think Iggy up makes sense because he can mean additional wins for this team this year and as I have said before, I think the horse was out of the barn on Iggy gaining hitting prowess in the minors before V got here. It was the Sox FO that pushed him up to AAA without giving him time to adapt to AA pitchers. Iggy is not going to make his money with his bat anyway.

 

However screwing up Bard even worse than he is for short term goals bothers me. Bard is a legitimate talent that has the potential to be a big time home run for the Sox as a starter if they handle him the right way. I don't like what V is doing with him and I don't like the fact that he is doing it to satisfy his own short term goals.

 

Baseball is dull of legitimate talents who can't and don't cut the mustard. Don't let your disdain for BV interfere with the obvious truth Bard is a bit of a wuss. He doesn't have the mental toughness to close and is yet to demonstrate that he can throw strikes enough to be a succssful as a starter. Numerous peolple questioned whether Bard was a starter. It isn't BV's fault that Bard hasn't sealed the deal. It isn't BV's fault that there are other and perhaps better options for the fourth adn fifth spots. Plus you have Dice-K waiting in the wings.

[User Name]

For the record, the Valentine apologists are going down the same road as the Francona apologists. He's not perfect, he has his shortcomings, and they are showing.

[jung]

We don't know if Bard can or can't start. At this point it would be hard to call a decision that he can't anything but a snap decision made to satisfy someone's short term goals. I don't have distain for V. I just don't like the idea of trading away on a guy's talent because it satisfies a short term, one year mentality.

 

Of course the Sox themselves are as much responsible for this particular mess because recognizing both what V is and what V is not they only gave him a two year contract. It is almost unheard of to give a new Manager a meager two years and rare for a Manager to accept such a short term commitment from ownership. But this is the deal with the devil that both sides made. Nobody has beaten a path to V's door to be a manager for 9 nine years so he was going to leap at just about any opportunity to manage in the bigs again and the Sox wanted somebody that would be a show piece for returning some order to the clubhouse.

 

Again, don't kid yourselves into thinking that this is anything other than what it is and don't kid yourselves that there were not going to be downstream ramifications from offering the Managers job to V with such a limited commitment from ownership.

[User Name]

Realistic criticism of Valentine =/= disdain. I'm with ya 100% jung.

[jung]

By the way....don't want to confuse folks more than is usual for me (at least I know my shortcomings). My comment about people not changing was meant to suggest that V is not going to "toughen" Bard up over the length of a spring training or even longer for that matter. Bard is who he is.

 

V might be able to convince himself that Bard is tough enough to start (whatever that means) if V likes the answers he gets from Bard to his whacky inquiries, his left handed compliments and his right angled advances. However, It will not be because the mighty V has toughened Bard up. It will be V convincing himself of the kid's makeup.

 

Now don't put it past V to take full credit for whatever Bard does this year. The Boston media's penchant for asking loaded questions is tailor made for V.

 

"Bobby, there were reports earlier this year that you were possibly making an effort to steel Bard's resolve or toughen him up for the rigors of starting. Since Bard has done pretty well, it looks like those efforts paid off......No?"

 

"Well he..he.....he..he, ya' know how it is......here we get paid for doing things.....over their at the networks they get paid for saying things....he..he....he..he."

 

Hey in this particular instance I am not really being critical of V for being V. We all knew it was going to be a hell-ofa'-ride with V as manager regardless of the result. I just hope they still offer barf bags on Air Valentine flights or at least aspirin.

[Elktonnick]

We don't know if Bard can or can't start. At this point it would be hard to call a decision that he can't anything but a snap decision made to satisfy someone's short term goals. I don't have distain for V. I just don't like the idea of trading away on a guy's talent because it satisfies a short term, one year mentality.

 

Of course the Sox themselves are as much responsible for this particular mess because recognizing both what V is and what V is not they only gave him a two year contract. It is almost unheard of to give a new Manager a meager two years and rare for a Manager to accept such a short term commitment from ownership. But this is the deal with the devil that both sides made. Nobody has beaten a path to V's door to be a manager for 9 nine years so he was going to leap at just about any opportunity to manage in the bigs again and the Sox wanted somebody that would be a show piece for returning some order to the clubhouse.

 

Again, don't kid yourselves into thinking that this is anything other than what it is and don't kid yourselves that there were not going to be downstream ramifications from offering the Managers job to V with such a limited commitment from ownership.

 

This really isn't about BV. It is about Bard. If BV weren't the manager and it were Gene Lumont the issues with Bard, Aceves and Dubront would still be the same. Who are the 4th and 5th starters. Bard still would be less qualified for the role objectively speaking than Aceves and marginally so than Dubront. He would be still be better qualified than Melancon for the setup role and still not have the mental toughness to close. If Bard wants to start he has to earn it, He hasn't done it yet. The manager stating that obvious truth doesn't change anything. That isn't being unfair to Bard it is just being honest and what anyone who has watched Bard pitch can see for themselves.

[SoxSport]

Well, at least he doesn't wear love beads around his neck when he's pitching. Did you see that pic of Buchholz in the Globe tonite pitching with those big beads rattling around his neck? How a guy can pitch with those things rattling around without behind distracted is beyond me.

[jung]

As I noted in my post of a few days ago.....if I had to make a decision that day (couple days ago), Aceves would likely be my 4 because he has out-pitched everybody else vying for the spot by such a wide margin. However the upside for Bard as a starter is much higher than the upside is for Aceves.

 

As for the set up role for Bard, I am not at all convinced that is where he would be best suited at this point. Again his problems with mechanics are not imbedded in this starting role. His problems with mechanics where there late last year in the set up role. What the starting role has done is that it has helped us understand the parameters of the problem from a very practical perspective.

 

Bard is most vulnerable early in innings and early in innings early in stints. We could not really see that in the set up role because while he was in trouble early in those stints just as he has been here in the spring there were not enough innings left in his relief stints for us to really gain a full appreciation for what this really looked like. While Bard is still struggling with his mechanics, the starting role has shown us that given enough innings of work, he for the most part settles in and pitches like we hope he can. Unfortunately by then he has already given up multiple walks with the usual consequences.

 

My problem with giving Bard the ball in the 8th inning is that this is the Bard that ended last season and if we give him the ball in the 8th now we will see what we saw end of last season.

 

Back to Aceves, while I can see enough value in the 4 to be willing to give up Aceves in the pen to have him as the 4, if he is beat out for the 4 I would not make him the 5. He is to valuable in the pen.

 

Will Doubront beat him out will Cook....???????

 

Allow Bard his two more starts in the spring and make him the 5 at least till dice comes back. Stop screwing around with these wacky questions like "are you still up for this" two stints into the spring and tell him what you expect in these next two spring starts. Don't complain to the world later that he is walking to many guys which anybody with eyes can see anyway. We all know that and big mouth Bobby telling the world Bard is walkin' to many guys does not help anybody.

 

V should have the guts to tell Bard what is expected of him. That's right, guts. It takes guts for a manager in any endeavor to tell his people what is expected of them. It is easy to wait till it is over and complain to the world that you did not get what you wanted from your people. I have seen any number of ******* managers in any number of endeavors that had that particular "quality" and I did not respect them for that exact reason and I don't find it one of V's more admirable traits. I always told my people what I expected of them.

 

For the next start, I would not force him to throw change ups. I would tell him that he can throw the change if that is what he thinks is best for a given situation. However I would tell him that I want him to improve his ball:strike ratio and I would tell him that I do not want to see the first batter in innings walking down the first base path. I want no walks if I can get it and I absolutely want no walks with no outs.

 

I am as convinced as I was a few days ago that Doubront and maybe now Cook have roles to play in this. If Doubront can beat Aceves out for a rotation spot I would be very very happy. If Cook could do it and do it legitimately I would be very very happy as this pen would be way better it Aceves was in it.