Bard to Rotation a Mistake?

[jacksonianmarch]

Two scouts told Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com that they believe moving Daniel Bard to the rotation is a mistake.

"Bard should be in the pen,'' the source said. "He's a thrower, not a pitcher. And he's had success in the pen. I'd have made him the closer once (Jonathan) Papelbon left.'' Another scout added that the Red Sox are committed to Bard in the rotation but only for ''maybe half a year.'' Both scouts see Felix Doubront winning the fifth spot in the rotation, with Alfredo Aceves being used in the bullpen.

 

This is pulled from rotoworld fresh off Bard's pasting in his last outing. Thus far this spring, he's allowed 7 walks and 8 hits in 7.2IP, although prior to his last outing, he'd done well through 5 innings. This sentiment, though, is echoed by what I have said in the past. The guy was a wreck out of the rotation in low A and when they simplified things for him, he dominated in the pen. I am unsure he can do the same out of the rotation. It seems like Doubront is close to locking down a spot in the rotation and we shall see who locks down the other. It could be very interesting in sox camp this yr

[redsoxfan3]

This is pulled from rotoworld fresh off Bard's pasting in his last outing. Thus far this spring' date=' he's allowed 7 walks and 8 hits in 7.2IP, although prior to his last outing, he'd done well through 5 innings. This sentiment, though, is echoed by what I have said in the past. The guy was a wreck out of the rotation in low A and when they simplified things for him, he dominated in the pen. I am unsure he can do the same out of the rotation. It seems like Doubront is close to locking down a spot in the rotation and we shall see who locks down the other. It could be very interesting in sox camp this yr[/quote']

 

One bad performance in Spring Training means nothing. Look at Roy Halladay. He is one of the best pitchers in baseball and he has s*** his pants almost everytime he has stepped foot on the mound this Spring. Don't forget Bard didn't even start that game. If he pitches like this the rest of Spring Training then it is something to be concerned about, but one bad performance does not really mean anything to me.

[Dojji]

Would not be shocked if he was out there working on secondary and tertiary pitches. I didn't see a lot of heat from a kid who's supposed to throw as hard as Bard.

 

If he stanks up the Spring but masters throwing a better change and picks up a cutter or something, the Spring will be a success for him.

 

You know what I don't get? I never understood why, when Paps was officially moved fulltime to the pen, why they didn't keep grooming him as a starter in the Spring. First two years, he was focusing on expanding and mastering his repertoire and still mixing his pitches, and he kicked tail in the regular season after he was transferred to the pen. Then in 08 and from then on, it was fastball, fastball, fastball and he lost something. Why did they never put 2 and 2 together?

 

I mean When you have a kid, and what you're doing with that kid is as effective as it was those first two years, why change ANYTHING you were doing?

[Palodios]

This is pulled from rotoworld fresh off Bard's pasting in his last outing. Thus far this spring' date=' he's allowed 7 walks and 8 hits in 7.2IP, although prior to his last outing, he'd done well through 5 innings. This sentiment, though, is echoed by what I have said in the past. The guy was a wreck out of the rotation in low A and when they simplified things for him, he dominated in the pen. I am unsure he can do the same out of the rotation. It seems like Doubront is close to locking down a spot in the rotation and we shall see who locks down the other. It could be very interesting in sox camp this yr[/quote']

 

If they decide to start Aceves and close with Bard that works too. All the Red Sox need is someone better than Lackey.

[redsoxfan3]

If they decide to start Aceves and close with Bard that works too. All the Red Sox need is someone better than Lackey.

 

This might be a long shot, but what if Doubront were to be the #4 and Padilla or Cook could be the #5. Cook went 3.1 today and didn't give up a run. He has yet to give up a run all Spring. I know his time has been limited, but what if he were to pitch this good the rest of the Spring? I feel like we are better off with one of Bard or Aceves was in the rotation, but it could be huge for our pen if we could keep both.

[User Name]

This is pulled from rotoworld fresh off Bard's pasting in his last outing. Thus far this spring' date=' he's allowed 7 walks and 8 hits in 7.2IP, although prior to his last outing, he'd done well through 5 innings. This sentiment, though, is echoed by what I have said in the past. The guy was a wreck out of the rotation in low A and when they simplified things for him, he dominated in the pen. I am unsure he can do the same out of the rotation. It seems like Doubront is close to locking down a spot in the rotation and we shall see who locks down the other. It could be very interesting in sox camp this yr[/quote']

 

This is an extremely transparent attempt at back-patting. Not only is the sample size laughable, but considering the circumstances (they're having him work on his secondary pitches, this is known) and past performance (he's sucked the last couple of ST's) and the opinions of other scouts who think not only that he could, but rather that he should start, it all up adds to a pretty misguided attempt to reinforce a typically negative opinion about a Red Sox player.

 

It's pretty pathetic too.

[Spudboy]

I think Bard belongs in the pen because he is very good at set-up and the Sox pen needs arms.

 

And yes, this is a small sample size. I do not believe this subject is worthy of it's own thread. Especially since there is a similar thread already. Interesting.

[seabeachfred]

This might be a long shot' date=' but what if Doubront were to be the #4 and Padilla or Cook could be the #5. Cook went 3.1 today and didn't give up a run. He has yet to give up a run all Spring. I know his time has been limited, but what if he were to pitch this good the rest of the Spring? I feel like we are better off with one of Bard or Aceves was in the rotation, but it could be huge for our pen if we could keep both.[/quote']

 

According to my friend 700 Hitter, Cook was pretty much a physical wreck but I also noticed he backtracked just a little when the guy pitched well the first time out. I think we have to watch this guy more closely. If he is fully healthy again, we might have caught lightning in a bottle as the saying goes, but like 700 I'm holding my cards real close to my vest on Cook. I want to see more before I go over the ledge. I also think we might have something in Padilla if we could keep the white coats away. As for Doubrant, well you all know what I've been saying about him stepping for the last week so I won't belabor you with any more stuff on him. Bard? Yes, I still wonder if he is made for starting, and those two scouts make me wonder even more.

[seabeachfred]

This is an extremely transparent attempt at back-patting. Not only is the sample size laughable, but considering the circumstances (they're having him work on his secondary pitches, this is known) and past performance (he's sucked the last couple of ST's) and the opinions of other scouts who think not only that he could, but rather that he should start, it all up adds to a pretty misguided attempt to reinforce a typically negative opinion about a Red Sox player.

 

It's pretty pathetic too.

 

You know User, if we could just forget for a moment that Jacko is a diehard fan of the EE, what he is saying does bear watching. It is possible Daniel just had a very bad outing and that the rain delay hurt him. That happens to a lot of pitchers and if that is so Bobby learned from it. He won't make the same mistake again since he is not FrancoMa, the master of the repeated mistake. If, OTOH, he goes out there and gets lit up again, shows poor control and poorer mastery of his secondary pitches it could be a serious concern to the lot of us. Pitching, both in the rotation and the pen, will determine how far we go this season. I think that is pretty much accepted by most of us around here.

[SoxSport]

Bard has a bad outing --in the 8th, no less--and now the analysts want to play manager.

 

Ignore these guys.

 

 

The mistake is to shift him around in different roles in ST.

[User Name]

You know User' date=' if we could just forget for a moment that Jacko is a diehard fan of the EE, what he is saying does bear watching. It is possible Daniel just had a very bad outing and that the rain delay hurt him. That happens to a lot of pitchers and if that is so Bobby learned from it. He won't make the same mistake again since he is not FrancoMa, the master of the repeated mistake. If, OTOH, he goes out there and gets lit up again, shows poor control and poorer mastery of his secondary pitches it could be a serious concern to the lot of us. Pitching, both in the rotation and the pen, will determine how far we go this season. I think that is pretty much accepted by most of us around here.[/quote']

 

I'd take it seriously if it wasn't loaded with self-serving babble. A lot of people have their concerns about Bard starting, me included, but a couple of innings of Spring ball doesn't mean you're an "expert" whose opinion was validated.

 

It was one bad outing, not three seasons of futility that have completely ruined the kid's career.

[jacksonianmarch]

This is an extremely transparent attempt at back-patting. Not only is the sample size laughable, but considering the circumstances (they're having him work on his secondary pitches, this is known) and past performance (he's sucked the last couple of ST's) and the opinions of other scouts who think not only that he could, but rather that he should start, it all up adds to a pretty misguided attempt to reinforce a typically negative opinion about a Red Sox player.

 

It's pretty pathetic too.

 

LOL, you're funny. Bard's SSS this spring is much worse than his prior springs. I maintain my belief that Bard is in the pen come midseason

[redsoxfan3]

LOL' date=' you're funny. Bard's SSS this spring is much worse than his prior springs. I maintain my belief that Bard is in the pen come midseason[/quote']

 

I am not going to say I disagree with you. If Doubront wins the 5th spot and is doing good by the time Dice-K comes back and Bard is not doing so good, it might be realistic that Dice-K replaces him in the rotation. It is just a guess and all of this is matter of opinion. There are so many question marks, but either way I still think our rotation will be better than last year.

[Palodios]

LOL' date=' you're funny. Bard's SSS this spring is much worse than his prior springs. I maintain [b']my belief that Bard is in the pen come midseason[/b]

 

Isn't that what everyone believes? How else do you think they'll manage to keep his inning count down otherwise?

[Station 13]

This is too early to tell. Don't expect instant results. I think the better comparison for him is Morrow, not Wilson.

[SoxSport]

Heyman probably invented this story. He's a Yankee guy.

[SoxFanForsyth]

This is pulled from rotoworld fresh off Bard's pasting in his last outing. Thus far this spring' date=' he's allowed 7 walks and 8 hits in 7.2IP, although prior to his last outing, he'd done well through 5 innings. This sentiment, though, is echoed by what I have said in the past. The guy was a wreck out of the rotation in low A and when they simplified things for him, he dominated in the pen. I am unsure he can do the same out of the rotation. It seems like Doubront is close to locking down a spot in the rotation and we shall see who locks down the other. It could be very interesting in sox camp this yr[/quote']

 

He also pitched out of relief in his last outing, was supposed to throw the 5th but Valentine put in Thomas to throw the 5th, so Bard didn't get in until the 6th, got 1 batter out, then got hit by a rain delay.

 

For a guy who is still trying to figure out his pregame rotation, that outing is on Bobby. We'll see how he does Tuesday, but my money is on him succeeding.

[User Name]

Isn't that what everyone believes? How else do you think they'll manage to keep his inning count down otherwise?

 

 

He's too busy trying to pat his own back to realize he's not breaking new ground here.

[SoxSport]

Reading the full quote of that "scout", the full thought was Bard should have replaced Pap as closer and not moved to starter. I would buy that as well, though they got Bailey and Melancon for cheap. Bailey is not a sure bet to pitch a full season, so maybe you might see Bard as closer eventually. I think he has a better chance of succeeding as closer than as starter.

[seabeachfred]

Tuesday will tell us more about Daniel Bard. If he shakes off his disastrous last assignment and pitches up to his ability we can all breath a sigh of relief....and a relief it will be. If OTOH he goes out there are displays poor control and gets lit up to boot it is time to start showing a concern. I have full confidence in Valentine that I never had in Francona and I'm sure he will be on top of things long before they unravel, but just the same I would suggest to him if I could that defined roles as soon as humanly possible should be the byword this season. If we start moving people around and pitchers don't know where they are going to be from one month to the next it doesn't augar well for success in my opinon.

[Station 13]

Bard career stats at Fenway is mind blowing: 1.71 ERA 0.86 WHIP

 

You see that you want him on this team doing what he does best for a long time, staying in the bullpen.

[example1]

I find it ironic that the statistical criticism of Bard's spring training (and his ability to perform as a starter) came as he appeared IN RELIEF in spring training. Two scoreless starts and a s***** relief performance.

 

Lou Merloni (WEEI) was flipping out over Valentine's decision to pitch Bard out of the pen in the most recent game, and I agree. The one thing Bard said he was struggling with was developing a routine for starting--specifically how much time to allow to warm up, how to prepare mentally, etc., as those are significantly different than waiting in the pen all game for a pre-determined time to pitch in the 7th or 8th. Then Valentine takes one of the valuable opportunities for him to practice this and gives the start to Aceves.

 

Apparently he was going to do the same thing the previous game but Bard talked him out of it. Perhaps Valentine is trying to teach Bard that none of that preparation s*** should matter?? I don't know.

 

In any case, it is still funny that his "bad" statistics come entirely from a non-starting appearance.

[jung]

On the one hand I found that Yanks announcer's criticism of V for making tactical moves early in games that you would normally reserve for later in games during the regular season pretty ridiculous. This is Spring Training. This is when it does not matter whether it is early or late in games. You are just trying to see what your players can and cannot do and trying to coach them up at the same time. Stupid criticism of V in my opinion.

 

I thought it was interesting watching guys try to go from 1st to 3rd in situations where you might not recommend it just to see what they had. Frankly I was stunned to see that Ortiz looked way better going from 1st to 3rd than Agons did and that was not a factor of conditioning either. Agons simply looks like an old man running the bases. Heck he looks about like I would look going from 1st to 3rd. There is no fluidity in his running stride at all. Again for me the shocker was how much more fluid Ortiz is at his age when compared to Agons.

 

But I digress. I don't agree with shoving Bard out there in relief either. Granted in ST the starting pitchers have to trot out there during the middle of games. In Bard's case I don't know if it would have been realistic to have him prepare for his stint just like he was starting while having him come into the middle of the game. Timing is probably very hard to manage in that regard. However given his situation I simply would not pitch him unless he is given the opportunity to prepare just like it was a start.

 

The other place I did not like the move was the Iggy running play. While we will likely never know if that was the play Iggy was hurt on, plays at home are inherently dangerous and I would not agree with sending a guy for a meaningless ST run. To much nasty stuff happens around home plate.

[jung]

On the one hand I found that Yanks announcer's criticism of V for making tactical moves early in games that you would normally reserve for later in games during the regular season pretty ridiculous. This is Spring Training. This is when it does not matter whether it is early or late in games. You are just trying to see what your players can and cannot do and trying to coach them up at the same time. Stupid criticism of V in my opinion.

 

I thought it was interesting watching guys try to go from 1st to 3rd in situations where you might not recommend it just to see what they had. Frankly I was stunned to see that Ortiz looked way better going from 1st to 3rd than Agons did and that was not a factor of conditioning either. Agons simply looks like an old man running the bases. Heck he looks about like I would look going from 1st to 3rd. There is no fluidity in his running stride at all. Again for me the shocker was how much more fluid Ortiz is at his age when compared to Agons.

 

But I digress. I don't agree with shoving Bard out there in relief either. Granted in ST the starting pitchers have to trot out there during the middle of games. In Bard's case I don't know if it would have been realistic to have him prepare for his stint just like he was starting while having him come into the middle of the game. Timing is probably very hard to manage in that regard. However given his situation I simply would not pitch him unless he is given the opportunity to prepare just like it was a start.

 

The other place I did not like the move was the Iggy running play. While we will likely never know if that was the play Iggy was hurt on, plays at home are inherently dangerous and I would not agree with sending a guy for a meaningless ST run. To much nasty stuff happens around home plate.

[SoxSport]

Bard career stats at Fenway is mind blowing: 1.71 ERA 0.86 WHIP

 

You see that you want him on this team doing what he does best for a long time, staying in the bullpen.

 

Could be he told them he wanted to start, not close. And they needed a 4th starter.

 

Maybe that's why they traded for Bailey.

[SoxSport]

But I digress. I don't agree with shoving Bard out there in relief either. Granted in ST the starting pitchers have to trot out there during the middle of games. In Bard's case I don't know if it would have been realistic to have him prepare for his stint just like he was starting while having him come into the middle of the game. Timing is probably very hard to manage in that regard. However given his situation I simply would not pitch him unless he is given the opportunity to prepare just like it was a start.

The other place I did not like the move was the Iggy running play. While we will likely never know if that was the play Iggy was hurt on, plays at home are inherently dangerous and I would not agree with sending a guy for a meaningless ST run. To much nasty stuff happens around home plate.

 

Agree entirely on both points, as I've stated in posts.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised at Bobby's lapses in judgement on both. I hope it's not a bad omen.

[a700hitter]

You know User' date=' if we could just forget for a moment that Jacko is a diehard fan of the EE, what he is saying does bear watching. It is possible Daniel just had a very bad outing and that the rain delay hurt him. That happens to a lot of pitchers and if that is so Bobby learned from it. He won't make the same mistake again since he is not FrancoMa, the master of the repeated mistake. If, OTOH, he goes out there and gets lit up again, shows poor control and poorer mastery of his secondary pitches it could be a serious concern to the lot of us. Pitching, both in the rotation and the pen, will determine how far we go this season. I think that is pretty much accepted by most of us around here.[/quote']Cook's career has been checkered with serious debilitating injuries. He's still only 33 and he has never been a power pitcher. If he is healthy, he might be able to be effective pitching to contact. That is the way he pitches. I read that Cook will pitch against the Yanks on Thursday, because the Sox don't want to let the Yanks see Beckett in the pre-season. I'll fill you in about what I see. Regardless of how he looks, I don't think he will come north, and neither will Padilla. There is no room on the staff. The Sox hands are tied in putting together the staff, because Doubront, Miller and Bowden are all out of options and they are unlikely to get DFA'd before opening day.

[redsoxbeatz]

How can we possibly judge if moving Bard to the SP position was a mistake till the regular season is thoroughly underway? Just seems ridiculous to ask this now, "...We'll find out" is the best answer.

[seabeachfred]

Cook's career has been checkered with serious debilitating injuries. He's still only 33 and he has never been a power pitcher. If he is healthy' date=' he might be able to be effective pitching to contact. That is the way he pitches. I read that Cook will pitch against the Yanks on Thursday, because the Sox don't want to let the Yanks see Beckett in the pre-season. I'll fill you in about what I see. Regardless of how he looks, I don't think he will come north, and neither will Padilla. There is no room on the staff. The Sox hands are tied in putting together the staff, because Doubront, Miller and Bowden are all out of options and they are unlikely to get DFA'd before opening day.[/quote']

 

Speaking only for myself Ted, I would appreciate it very much if you did keep me informed on what you see when you're down in Fort Myers---especially the pitchers and whatever you can find out about Ryan Lavarnway. Since we have to bring Doub, Bowden and Miller up since they have no options remaining I can only hope that they do the job when called on. We cannot afford to come crawling out the gate as we did last season, but besides that, have yourself a helluva time down there. You've got me envious of you already.

[SoxSport]

I find it ironic that the statistical criticism of Bard's spring training (and his ability to perform as a starter) came as he appeared IN RELIEF in spring training. Two scoreless starts and a s***** relief performance.

 

Lou Merloni (WEEI) was flipping out over Valentine's decision to pitch Bard out of the pen in the most recent game, and I agree. The one thing Bard said he was struggling with was developing a routine for starting--specifically how much time to allow to warm up, how to prepare mentally, etc., as those are significantly different than waiting in the pen all game for a pre-determined time to pitch in the 7th or 8th. Then Valentine takes one of the valuable opportunities for him to practice this and gives the start to Aceves.

 

Apparently he was going to do the same thing the previous game but Bard talked him out of it. Perhaps Valentine is trying to teach Bard that none of that preparation s*** should matter?? I don't know.

 

In any case, it is still funny that his "bad" statistics come entirely from a non-starting appearance.

 

I'm delighted my intuition was correct--that Merloni had the same feeling.

 

Closers often get bombed when they are put into non-save situations. It's a 50% mental game. Managers should know better.