Did you see how far apart Ortiz and the RSFO are?

[ibot2much]

Story in the GLOBE this morning about coming up with the money to do somethng with the pitching rotation. According to BigBen, they have their solid three- JB, CB and JL. Even though CB made only a few starting appearances going out in June with is back, they have penciled him in for a definite.

 

Bard and Aceves will be the potential other 2.

 

I know this all makes me feel so secure with the pitching....but Big David will be on the field making at least a dozen million and that will be enough to get us to the WS

[jacksonianmarch]

Chart plz.

 

Now I know you aren't new. Let's all harp on his deficiencies in the hopes that you all can will the judge to pick the lower number. They take into account his last 2 seasons and his current salary. His 2011 salary was $12.5 million. His Ops was .899 and .952 in the last 2 yes respectively. He's the best player at his position. Age isn't factored in. He's gonna get a raise. The sox offered him effectively the same contract. He's gonna get a higher number.

[example1]

Now I know you aren't new. Let's all harp on his deficiencies in the hopes that you all can will the judge to pick the lower number. They take into account his last 2 seasons and his current salary. His 2011 salary was $12.5 million. His Ops was .899 and .952 in the last 2 yes respectively. He's the best player at his position. Age isn't factored in. He's gonna get a raise. The sox offered him effectively the same contract. He's gonna get a higher number.

 

Doesn't a 30% raise seem a bit much though?

[User Name]

Now I know you aren't new. Let's all harp on his deficiencies in the hopes that you all can will the judge to pick the lower number. They take into account his last 2 seasons and his current salary. His 2011 salary was $12.5 million. His Ops was .899 and .952 in the last 2 yes respectively. He's the best player at his position. Age isn't factored in. He's gonna get a raise. The sox offered him effectively the same contract. He's gonna get a higher number.

 

Wha? It's been a recurrent theme in the 2012 Off-season thread. Nice "deductive" reasoning though.

 

They'll settle at the midpoint btw.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think they will too, but if it goes before the arbiter, then he must pick one or the other. And if there is a choice, then history suggests he'll get the raise

[User Name]

Doubt it gets to the arbiter.

[SoxSport]

Now I know you aren't new. Let's all harp on his deficiencies in the hopes that you all can will the judge to pick the lower number. They take into account his last 2 seasons and his current salary. His 2011 salary was $12.5 million. His Ops was .899 and .952 in the last 2 yes respectively. He's the best player at his position. Age isn't factored in. He's gonna get a raise. The sox offered him effectively the same contract. He's gonna get a higher number.

 

He won't get $16.5. He might have gotten $14.5, but he'll probably have to settle for $12.5, which is more than what he could get anywhere else. That was their miscalculation. Plus their loyalty factor, which was not reciprocated. I get the impression Papi could care less where the Red Sox finish next year.

[seabeachfred]

He won't get $16.5. He might have gotten $14.5' date=' but he'll probably have to settle for $12.5, which is more than what he could get anywhere else. That was their miscalculation. Plus their loyalty factor, which was not reciprocated. I get the impression Papi could care less where the Red Sox finish next year.[/quote']

 

Come hell or high water this has to be his last season with the Red Sox. Ortiz has turned into a selfish argumentative diva who doesn't come close to representing the Big Papi I knew and loved. What happened to him I don't know, but in the last three seasons he has become a common bithcher with umpires, loafs criminally down the bases, doesn't lead and complains all the time. I remember all the great clutch hits he got for us but will not miss him when he is finally gone.

[a700hitter]

Come hell or high water this has to be his last season with the Red Sox. Ortiz has turned into a selfish argumentative diva who doesn't come close to representing the Big Papi I knew and loved. What happened to him I don't know' date=' but in the last three seasons he has become a common bithcher with umpires, loafs criminally down the bases, doesn't lead and complains all the time. I remember all the great clutch hits he got for us but will not miss him when he is finally gone.[/quote']I still love the guy. I don't blame him for trying for the big payday. He's always been a standup guy with the fans and the community. He always bitched with the umps. I'm okay with that too. He can't let them take the bat out of his hand.

[redsoxbeatz]

Didn't we learn our lesson with CC? Theo was so ashamed of how many bases CC stole against the RS bad catching, he paid him anything to come to the RS...and we know how that worked out.

 

i hardly think one down year in this mans career, albeit the first one with RS, is enough evidence to call him a bust.

[SoxSport]

Funny thing, the more money these guys make and have to spend, the worse off the team is. That goes for the players and the FO.

[jacksonianmarch]

I still love the guy. I don't blame him for trying for the big payday. He's always been a standup guy with the fans and the community. He always bitched with the umps. I'm okay with that too. He can't let them take the bat out of his hand.

 

He took a discount on his last contract, and is probably upset that they haven't shown him the same loyalty that he showed them. His 4 yr $52 mil deal at the time was a complete bargain. On the open market, he could have commanded $18 mil per yr at the time for 5-6 yrs. I think that burns him a bit.

[ORS]

He took a discount on his last contract' date=' and is probably upset that they haven't shown him the same loyalty that he showed them. His 4 yr $52 mil deal at the time was a complete bargain. On the open market, he could have commanded $18 mil per yr at the time for 5-6 yrs. I think that burns him a bit.[/quote']

Absolutely not, not as a full-time DH.

[ibot2much]

i hardly think one down year in this mans career' date=' albeit the first one with RS, is enough evidence to call him a bust.[/quote']

 

 

I never said anything about his career.....I said we know how last year worked out.... his one year with the RS. My point was that Theo was negotiating from fear, bringing CC to Boston so he would not contnue to embarrass the Sox by stealing multiple times per game.

[ibot2much]

Ah, the pinching pennies continues....got to come up with that big money for Ortiz at the expense of pitching.

 

The RS and Rockies each pulled out of a deal that would have sent Scutero to the Rockies ...apparently just to save Boston $6 mil. According to BigBen it was a money thing. They figured they had Aviles, Punto or Iglesias...but really none of them would work out as the regular ss.

[User Name]

They didn't choose Ortiz over pitching, they offered Ortiz arbitration expecting him to decline it, netting them picks. It backfired.

 

As for the penny-pinching, what did you expect? They just missed the playoffs with a 170+ million team, have been over the luxury tax two years running and there's a huge crop of pitchers in next year's FA market.

 

Perfect storm for them to try to stay under the luxury cap.

[RedSoxFan84]

Ah, the pinching pennies continues....got to come up with that big money for Ortiz at the expense of pitching.

 

The RS and Rockies each pulled out of a deal that would have sent Scutero to the Rockies ...apparently just to save Boston $6 mil. According to BigBen it was a money thing. They figured they had Aviles, Punto or Iglesias...but really none of them would work out as the regular ss.

 

 

What makes you so sure of that? I think Iglesias will turn out to be a quality ful-time SS. His defensive game is already well and truly ready for the big time, in fact I read a report somewhere which referred to Iglesias as "a multiple Gold Glove winner waiting to happen". The only real problem that seems to be holding him back is his ability with the bat, and I can't see any reason why his offensive game wont continue to improve with experience.

[Dojji]

That would work on the Royals. Not on the Red Sox. If you're going to play SS here you have to provide something -- even if only a little -- with the stuck. Even Alex Gonzalez was able to contribute some sporadic power, and even Nick Green was surprisingly adept at getting himself on base until near the end of his tenure here. That's non-optional.

[RedSoxFan84]

That would work on the Royals. Not on the Red Sox. If you're going to play SS here you have to provide something -- even if only a little -- with the stuck. Even Alex Gonzalez was able to contribute some sporadic power' date=' and even Nick Green was surprisingly adept at getting himself on base until near the end of his tenure here. That's non-optional.[/quote']

 

 

 

Fair enough I guess. So what would you do with Iglesias? Give him another year to work on his offensive game before giving him a shot in Boston?

[jacksonianmarch]

Iglesias is trade bait, IMO

[Dojji]

Fair enough I guess. So what would you do with Iglesias? Give him another year to work on his offensive game before giving him a shot in Boston?

 

A year, or more. Worst case scenario he's a pretty danged good bench player. He's not a starter unless that bat comes along, or unless we're desperate enough financially to start scrimping at a few positions. I imagine he's more valuable to the middle of the road NL squads than he is here, because he fits better into how those teams like to do business.

[Muggah]

They didn't choose Ortiz over pitching, they offered Ortiz arbitration expecting him to decline it, netting them picks. It backfired.

 

As for the penny-pinching, what did you expect? They just missed the playoffs with a 170+ million team, have been over the luxury tax two years running and there's a huge crop of pitchers in next year's FA market.

 

Perfect storm for them to try to stay under the luxury cap.

 

"They expected him to decline it,"---ya right, no friggin' way. They knew as well as the rest of us that he was going to accept it. It was a no brainer for him.

 

I still maintain that keeping Big Diva around for PR purposes for the 100th celebration played a role in their decision to bring him back. How much is debatable, but IMO they needed someone who played a major role in the two WSCs still in the fold. Diva played such a huge role in both that he was the obvious choice as an ambassador of PR.

[jacksonianmarch]

A year' date=' or more. Worst case scenario he's a pretty danged good bench player. He's not a starter unless that bat comes along, or unless we're desperate enough financially to start scrimping at a few positions. I imagine he's more valuable to the middle of the road NL squads than he is here, because he fits better into how those teams like to do business.[/quote']

 

Exactly. He'll never be the kind of offensive force the sox look for because he's never shown the patience required to be a regular in the sox lineup. I think he has a marginal yr with the bat, then gets moved in the offseason for pitching

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. He'll never be the kind of offensive force the sox look for because he's never shown the patience required to be a regular in the sox lineup. I think he has a marginal yr with the bat' date=' then gets moved in the offseason for pitching[/quote']

 

But if so, who is the Red Sox SS next year and the year after?

[jacksonianmarch]

They'll trade/sign another SS who'll put up good OBP numbers if nothing else

[SoxSport]

Fair enough I guess. So what would you do with Iglesias? Give him another year to work on his offensive game before giving him a shot in Boston?

 

Why the hell does a SS have to hit--on a hitting team? The kid is all-world defensively, and he has speed. How many good hitting/good fielding SSs are there? Henry couldn't afford one anyways.

[seabeachfred]

Fair enough I guess. So what would you do with Iglesias? Give him another year to work on his offensive game before giving him a shot in Boston?

 

The question with Iglesias is, of course, his hitting but that only touches the surface. Right now he is a complete bust as a hitter. Yes, he is only 21 and could develop but last season he went in the opposite direction, but is problem is multi-fold. Some infielders who are weak hitters can at least hit with a little power like Alex Gonzales did for us. Iggy has no power whatsoever. Some infielders can find a way to get on base as Nick Green did for us. Iggy's OBA is pathetic; he hardly walks and has little plate discipline. Some infielders weak with the bat can steal a base or two for you when they do get on base. Iggy is a very poor base runner and doesn't possess great speed anyway. In other words, right now he is more a liability with a bat in his hand than an asset.......a complete liability.

 

A great fielder like Iglesias you want out there in the late innings when you need a great fielder to make that play that blunts a rally, but right now that would not be possible because in a close game the manager would be nuts not to pinch hit for him, and that means he has to come out of the game. No, he needs to improve his hitting drastically if he is to make it with the Red Sox. Donji is absolutely right; in Boston you have to be able to hit because you play in a hitter's park, and to keep pinch hitting for a weak hitter weakens your bench.

[seabeachfred]

Why the hell does a SS have to hit--on a hitting team? The kid is all-world defensively' date=' and he has speed. How many good hitting/good fielding SSs are there? Henry couldn't afford one anyways.[/quote']

 

That's the problem Sox Sport. Iglesias does NOT possess good speed. He is not a stolen base threat and when you combine that with his poor plate discilipline and total lack of power, he winds up a minus on the team. We had a good hitting team in 2008 too, but I remember that summer like a bad nightmare. Jason Varitek was beginning his long decline into uselessness after June and there were so many games that summer where we were in close contests and it seemed always that he was at bat with the game on the line. Francona, being the placater that he was, refused to pinch hit for him and said so in the papers, and the result that he failed every time he came up in that situation save for one game winning hit against Texas at FP. We lost about ten games that way. No, SS, we cannot have a totally weak hitter in the lineup in the AL. Besides, with our luck in a clutch situation with the game possibly on the line the batter's box would find the guy we least want up there, as it was with Varitek that summer of '08.

[SoxSport]

The question with Iglesias is' date=' of course, his hitting but that only touches the surface. [b']Right now he is a complete bust as a hitter.[/b] .

 

He has a .261 BA in two years in the minor leagues. He has less than a season in AAA, and his numbers aren't far from Reddick's. They need him for his defense--not his offense. SS is basically a defensive position. Can he benefit from more AAA experience? Maybe, but he can also help the Red Sox right now--regardless of his hitting.

[User Name]

The question with Iglesias is, of course, his hitting but that only touches the surface. Right now he is a complete bust as a hitter. Yes, he is only 21 and could develop but last season he went in the opposite direction, but is problem is multi-fold. Some infielders who are weak hitters can at least hit with a little power like Alex Gonzales did for us. Iggy has no power whatsoever. Some infielders can find a way to get on base as Nick Green did for us. Iggy's OBA is pathetic; he hardly walks and has little plate discipline. Some infielders weak with the bat can steal a base or two for you when they do get on base. Iggy is a very poor base runner and doesn't possess great speed anyway. In other words, right now he is more a liability with a bat in his hand than an asset.......a complete liability.

 

A great fielder like Iglesias you want out there in the late innings when you need a great fielder to make that play that blunts a rally, but right now that would not be possible because in a close game the manager would be nuts not to pinch hit for him, and that means he has to come out of the game. No, he needs to improve his hitting drastically if he is to make it with the Red Sox. Donji is absolutely right; in Boston you have to be able to hit because you play in a hitter's park, and to keep pinch hitting for a weak hitter weakens your bench.

 

He is a complete bust as a hitter at 21 years of age? That is complete and utter stupidity, regardless of the "he could develop in the future" point.. No offense meant.