Did you see how far apart Ortiz and the RSFO are?

[ibot2much]

This one might have to go to arbitration. Ortiz wants $16+ mil and the RS are offering $12+mil. If Ortiz came through in Sept and turned the team around and they won, then he really could write his own ticket...he didn't so all this crap about how valuable he was in the past....is just that-- "in the past". He didn't come through as clutch when he was needed, so there is no reason to pay a part time player that ridiculous amount of money, and ridicuous is the operative word here.

 

 

I will set the timer to see how fast somebody comes on with "if we don't pay him, then the Yankees ( or whoever) will'.

 

Didn't we learn our lesson with CC? Theo was so ashamed of how many bases CC stole against the RS bad catching, he paid him anything to come to the RS...and we know how that worked out.

 

You deal out of fear, you get a fearfully bad deal.

[SoxSport]

Papi has done a lot in Boston, but the Sox carried him for two years at inflated salary prior to last year

when he was declining. Last year, he rejuvenated in a way that is all too common in baseball for contract year players. If he was a team player, he would accomodate the Red Sox in working out a deal that is friendly to the cap and allows them to add a pitcher they need without paying the luxury tax. But as an older HOF player told me, they're all a bunch of greedy bastards who are after the last dollar. Papi is a prima donna, and he is for Papi.

[BSN07]

I'm hoping this is a ploy to try and get 2/20M. With how close to the LT the Sox are they might add a year to save a couple million this season. Just a thought.

[SoxSport]

I think the Red Sox have an excellent chance of winning this at $12+ mil. I don't see an arbitrator giving him $16+ mil he's asking for. Too big a jump for a DH his age with a recent history of decline prior to last year. Papi would have gotten $14 mil if he had asked for it.

[RedSoxNC84]

While he has done a lot in Boston, 16mil is a lot for a 36 year old DH. I don't see how they would award him that salary, he should just accept what Boston is offering, seeing that it is still a raise over what he made last season. He's lucky that they even offered him arb. I don't think anyone else would offer him even 2/20, especially any contending team for that matter, no one really has too many holes where the DH is concerned.

[jung]

I wish the the Sox could Arb Ortiz at 12 but I don't think that will happen. Don't think 16 will happen either. The board has been projecting 14-15 and I think that is the most likely outcome. Still sort of wish Ortiz would acknowledge that the Sox did him just about the biggest favor in the history of baseball instead of trying to take every bit of advantage of that favor. But that is baseball especially now. The Sox screwed up and Ortiz is going take the fullest advantage of it possible.

[iortiz]

I'm hoping this is a ploy to try and get 2/20M. With how close to the LT the Sox are they might add a year to save a couple million this season. Just a thought.

 

if we want to win this season this could work it out. You can likely afford the best of both worlds (Ortiz and Oswalt)

[seabeachfred]

if we want to win this season this could work it out. You can likely afford the best of both worlds (Ortiz and Oswalt)

 

The Red Sox could show some real balls by just saying IMPASSE and release Ortiz. In one snap we would have money to sign a pitcher and Ortiz would sign somewhere else for four or five million and a bitter lesson would be learned. Ortiz has done a terrific job for the Red Sox for much of his career but he has become a me me me selfish diva the past few years, so typical of what we saw last September when it became common in the dugout and clubhouse. Again, it was absolutely stupid thing for Cherington to offer this guy arbitration under the belief that we wouldn't accept it. Ortiz was smarter than Cherington on that one and so were most posters on this board who also believed he would accept arbitration. Just release him and move on. We'll survive in the long run and you will be surprised how well Lavarnway does this season as DH, but I know the Sox haven't the guts to do that.

[iortiz]

The Red Sox could show some real balls by just saying IMPASSE and release Ortiz. In one snap we would have money to sign a pitcher and Ortiz would sign somewhere else for four or five million and a bitter lesson would be learned. Ortiz has done a terrific job for the Red Sox for much of his career but he has become a me me me selfish diva the past few years' date=' so typical of what we saw last September when it became common in the dugout and clubhouse. Again, it was absolutely stupid thing for Cherington to offer this guy arbitration under the belief that we wouldn't accept it. Ortiz was smarter than Cherington on that one and so were most posters on this board who also believed he would accept arbitration. Just release him and move on. We'll survive in the long run and you will be surprised how well Lavarnway does this season as DH, but I know the Sox haven't the guts to do that.[/quote']

 

Can we release him at this point? If yes, What would be the implications?

[User Name]

That's not how it works. If they release Ortiz, they are still on the hook for whatever the arbitration results are.

[iortiz]

That's not how it works. If they release Ortiz' date=' they are still on the hook for whatever the arbitration results are.[/quote']

 

That's what I had understood.

[jung]

Release him....what??? How the hell is that supposed to work?

[User Name]

Fred doesn't know how arbitration works apparently.

[a700hitter]

Release him....what??? How the hell is that supposed to work?

It wouldn't unless Ortiz becomes unable to perform.

[Palodios]

Honestly, I don't know how Ortiz would even ask for 16 million. Adam Dunn, Vmart, Hafner, and Guerrero are making 12 million or less. How on earth would a 37 year old (who probably has a questionable birth certificate) who doesn't even play a position make 16.5? Albert Pujols made LESS than 16.5 in 2011. Albert-f***ing-Pujols. There is no way he wins this arbitration hearing.

[iortiz]

Honestly' date=' I don't know how Ortiz would even ask for 16 million. Adam Dunn, Vmart, Hafner, and Guerrero are making 12 million or less. How on earth would a 37 year old (who probably has a questionable birth certificate) who doesn't even play a position make 16.5? Albert Pujols made LESS than 16.5 in 2011. Albert-f***ing-Pujols. There is no way he wins this arbitration hearing.[/quote']

 

I read that they offered 18/2 and he didn't accept.

[jung]

I think $16+ is a negotiating position and I hope it does not have the desired effect. By all rights at least in my view I don't think he should get $14 although I have basically conceded him $14 based on the circumstances. How I would love for one of these darned things to turn out with some basis in reality. Yea he had a great year for a 36 year old but at some point age has got to count for something. If the Arbiter just uses some standard formula, we are probably screwed.

[Palodios]

I think $16+ is a negotiating position and I hope it does not have the desired effect. By all rights at least in my view I don't think he should get $14 although I have basically conceded him $14 based on the circumstances. How I would love for one of these darned things to turn out with some basis in reality. Yea he had a great year for a 36 year old but at some point age has got to count for something. If the Arbiter just uses some standard formula' date=' we are probably screwed.[/quote']

 

In an arbitration hearing, a judge looks at the two contract offers-- in this case 12.5 and 16.5, and chooses one of them. It does not get split down the middle unless the two parties agree to it before the hearing. I do not see an argument for a guy who literally has NO position and misses 18 games every year to make 16 million.

[jung]

I thought the judge could have more impact even though he did not have more leeway than that. But in reality if I followed the actual hearing more closely maybe what I thought was a judge calling guys into a meeting and asking that they come to terms was really the team and the player taking some action completely separate from the Arbitration hearing itself.

 

I think I will try to follow this one during the process. Usually I just end up looking at the deal when the dust settles and I may be drawing the wrong conclusion from just looking at that.

[seabeachfred]

That's not how it works. If they release Ortiz' date=' they are still on the hook for whatever the arbitration results are.[/quote']

 

It works that way if they haven't come to a decision. Until a number is given by the arbitrator the Red Sox could release Ortiz immediately and not be responsible for a dime.

[iortiz]

It works that way if they haven't come to a decision. Until a number is given by the arbitrator the Red Sox could release Ortiz immediately and not be responsible for a dime.

 

Really Fred? What in the hell are they waiting for, then?

[jung]

I don't think that is the case Fred. There is one thing that I think may have confused the issue. Teams and players have in the past made handshake agreements behind the scenes and that has worked as a means for teams to step away from Arbitration but the handshake agreement is the difference.

 

In fact while I have not found the new language as yet and in fact have not found a complete new CBA posted anywhere as yet, it is my understanding that there is some effort in the new CBA to eliminate these handshake agreements. i don't even know why the league would necessarily care other than that it is something of a mutation of the intent of arbitration. But what you might be seeing as a formal process is in really the result of one of these handshake agreement between player and team.

 

As you can probably tell by the way Ortiz is going into this, there is about 0 chance that there is a behind the scenes handshake agreement that will allow both parties to gracefully back away from arbitration.

[User Name]

It works that way if they haven't come to a decision. Until a number is given by the arbitrator the Red Sox could release Ortiz immediately and not be responsible for a dime.

 

The CBA directly contradicts what you say. It is wrong. After Ortiz accepted arbitration, he is effectively a member of the 2012 Red Sox unless the Red Sox can prove that he can no longer perform as a baseball player.

[example1]

It works that way if they haven't come to a decision. Until a number is given by the arbitrator the Red Sox could release Ortiz immediately and not be responsible for a dime.

 

There is a well publicized arbitration deadline, whereby teams have to offer it by a certain date, like, two months ago. It's as binding as the term "deadline" sounds. Once they commit they're in.

 

On another topic, does anyone know how the arbitration process actually works? Is it something that is based at all on each sides arguments? In other words, with all of the Sox current fancy metrics and their ability to articulate value in 500 languages, is there any interesting discussion here, or is this a "HR", "RBI" kind of deal? The going rate for DH's is pretty low; regardless of their offensive value, they should subtract a reasonable amount for s***** baserunning and no fielding and no ability to field even if they need him to.

 

Instead they will probably pay thru the nose. Bummer.

[Palodios]

There is a well publicized arbitration deadline, whereby teams have to offer it by a certain date, like, two months ago. It's as binding as the term "deadline" sounds. Once they commit they're in.

 

On another topic, does anyone know how the arbitration process actually works? Is it something that is based at all on each sides arguments? In other words, with all of the Sox current fancy metrics and their ability to articulate value in 500 languages, is there any interesting discussion here, or is this a "HR", "RBI" kind of deal? The going rate for DH's is pretty low; regardless of their offensive value, they should subtract a reasonable amount for s***** baserunning and no fielding and no ability to field even if they need him to.

 

Instead they will probably pay thru the nose. Bummer.

 

The problem is, the Red Sox never actually go through arbitration, so most of us have not seen how it works, and the Yankees don't go to process very often either. I just don't see how he could ask for that much money, but if he could be had for 12.5 million, how great would that be? That would be a good value signing, despite all the arguments about what a bad move Ben made on this one.

[ibot2much]

My info on arbitration is also minimal. I have been calling him the $14 mil man figuring that they would settle somewhere in the middle. Regardless to me, even $12 mil is too much and I think he should have been set free to find glory with other teams.

 

His time has passed. Thanks so much but it is time for us to all move on.

[a700hitter]

The problem is' date=' the Red Sox never actually go through arbitration, so most of us have not seen how it works, and the Yankees don't go to process very often either. I just don't see how he could ask for that much money, but if he could be had for 12.5 million, how great would that be? That would be a good value signing, despite all the arguments about what a bad move Ben made on this one.[/quote']Calling $12.5 a value signing is really putting a positive spin on what was a terrible decision to offer arbitration. I am hoping that Ortiz overshot the mark with the $16.5 million figure, but if he gets it this will truly have been a colossal blunder. I the arbitrator goes with the 12.5 figure, we are still over paying. We could have signed him for 1 year at $10 M or 2/18 at the very most if we didn't offer arbitration.

[a700hitter]

There is a well publicized arbitration deadline, whereby teams have to offer it by a certain date, like, two months ago. It's as binding as the term "deadline" sounds. Once they commit they're in.

 

On another topic, does anyone know how the arbitration process actually works? Is it something that is based at all on each sides arguments? In other words, with all of the Sox current fancy metrics and their ability to articulate value in 500 languages, is there any interesting discussion here, or is this a "HR", "RBI" kind of deal? The going rate for DH's is pretty low; regardless of their offensive value, they should subtract a reasonable amount for s***** baserunning and no fielding and no ability to field even if they need him to.

 

Instead they will probably pay thru the nose. Bummer.

I think either side can present whatever evidence they want. It can get ugly. If they bash him at the hearing and he loses, we will have accomplished something that isn't easy to do-- we will be overpaying him and he'll be an unhappy camper. Once the Sox offered the arb, there could be no good outcome for them.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's gonna get the $16.5 mil

[User Name]

Chart plz.