The smear job

[SoxSport]

I agree 100%. I was never a Terry Francona fan' date=' but he did not deserve all this. He is entitled to some sort of private life. I really don't care to know about his medical conditions, what meds he is taking (after all, was it just Advil that he was taking for pain-that has zero effect on your judgement), and how his marriage is going.[/b']

 

Furthermore, today Henry slammed Crawford saying that he did not support signing him. How is that supposed to motivate Crawford to do well next year, knowing that the owner never liked his game? Some of these guys just don't know when to keep their mouths shut, and others don't know when to open them.

 

A reminder that the Tito tabloid fodder was a Globe story, not a Red Sox PR release. You don't know where Hohler et al got their information.

 

Henry did say today he did not support signing Crawford-- Epstein was calling the shots. I agree that was not a wise statement, in terms of going forward with Crawford. It almost makes Dave Martinez a must sign for manager. Crawford is a major investment.

 

Basically, the problem this team has with the media is it doesn't have a media spokesperson.

Somebody with experience on how to handle the media. And muzzle everybody else.

You know, like Presidents have for the White House media corps? You'd think they'd have learned their lesson by now.

[Elktonnick]

A reminder that the Tito tabloid fodder was a Globe story, not a Red Sox PR release. You don't know where Hohler et al got their information.

 

Henry did say today he did not support signing Crawford-- Epstein was calling the shots. I agree that was not a wise statement, in terms of going forward with Crawford. It almost makes Dave Martinez a must sign for manager. Crawford is a major investment.

 

Basically, the problem this team has with the media is it doesn't have a media spokesperson.

Somebody with experience on how to handle the media. And muzzle everybody else.

You know, like Presidents have for the White House media corps? You'd think they'd have learned their lesson by now.

 

Your laast point is 100% on the money.

[The Village Idiot]

Everyone is taking Henry's Crawford comment the wrong way. He was trying to answer a question that Felger or Mazz asked about whether ownership makes the call about players or whether baseball ops does, and he was crystal clear that baseball ops is the team that analyzes and finds players and brings the proposal to the table, and then, after that point, the combination of ops and ownership either decide to make an offer/sign the player or not make an offer/not sign the player. In no way could someone listen to that interview and think that Henry was singling out Carl Crawford, or cutting him down, or what have you. Henry was talking about THE PROCESS. Like I posted in the Henry radio show thread, why did everyone in Boston turn into a completely irrational dickwad since the collapse. It was a collapse of players playing poorly on the field for about a 4 week period. Out of a 24-week season. If the Sox are smart, which they are, they will hyper-focus on getting a strong new manager this off-season, while figuring out how its entire starting rotation failed so miserably IN A FOUR WEEK PERIOD. Anyone who thinks this is because of chicken, beer, clubhouse leadership, Terry's pain pills, marriages, cancer, Lackey's ugly mug, or what have you IS ON GLUE. Jesus, people! Snap out of it!

[Cairns_Sox]

Everyone is taking Henry's Crawford comment the wrong way. He was trying to answer a question that Felger or Mazz asked about whether ownership makes the call about players or whether baseball ops does' date=' and he was crystal clear that baseball ops is the team that analyzes and finds players and brings the proposal to the table, and then, after that point, the combination of ops and ownership either decide to make an offer/sign the player or not make an offer/not sign the player. In no way could someone listen to that interview and think that Henry was singling out Carl Crawford, or cutting him down, or what have you. Henry was talking about THE PROCESS. Like I posted in the Henry radio show thread, why did everyone in Boston turn into a completely irrational dickwad since the collapse. It was a collapse of players playing poorly on the field for about a 4 week period. Out of a 24-week season. If the Sox are smart, which they are, they will hyper-focus on getting a strong new manager this off-season,[b'] while figuring out how its entire starting rotation failed so miserably IN A FOUR WEEK PERIOD. Anyone who thinks this is because of chicken, beer, clubhouse leadership, Terry's pain pills, marriages, cancer, Lackey's ugly mug, or what have you IS ON GLUE. Jesus, people! Snap out of it![/b]

 

So your saying none of the issues were related to their inability to get the job done? Drinking beer and chicken doesn't make you fat?Not doing your workout doesn't make put on weight. I think your argument is a bit extreme.

[The Village Idiot]

Ballplayers have been drinking beer and eating chicken since baseball was invented.

 

Who wasn't doing their workouts? According to Henry today, and Dustin Pedroia, the pitchers were in fact doing all of their workouts--cardio, shoulder, legs--all season long. So unless Pedroia's lying, or unless all the trainers are lying to Henry/Tito/etc., it would appear that all the pitchers started underperforming at the same time. Is there a chance that's connected to their workout regimens? Yes there's absolutely that chance. That's why Henry said they're looking into everything, and they're going to get to the bottom of this. I believe him too.

 

And as for the absolute witch hunt on many of the Sox players that fans on message boards have taken up torches for and gone on, frankly, I think YOUR (the collective your) argument(s) is/are a bit extreme. Seriously, do you guys honestly think that there was no beer, chicken, and/or video games in the clubhouses in '03, '04, '07, '08, '09, '10 and in '11 before the September collapse? That Beckett and Lackey and company dramatically changed their behavior in '11 that never ever existed before? I think that's an extremely stupid thing to think, because pitchers are some of the most regimented, superstitious, stubborn bastards on the planet.

 

Are you honestly just falling hook, line and sinker for things that you're reading in THE BOSTON GLOBE, the paper that employs Dan Shaughnessy, Nick Cafardo and others?

 

Now, the Sox higher ups may investigate all this stuff and determine that the pitching staff was drastically unregimented or out of their usual physical conditioning regimens or malnourished/overfed (really??? Did anyone but me see CC Sabathia pitch and grow in girth this year??) and that that resulted in the collapse. But I'm not believing any unnamed sources from the Globe. I'm going to wait until the real professionals who know what's going on here get to the real truth and the heart of the matter before I go nailing Jon Lester and Josh Beckett to the cross.

 

But jump to as many conclusions as you want. Hope you're having fun.

[jung]

Just for clarification Sabathia is a bad example. CC has weighed in at about 309 for a long time now. After off season knee surgery this year he came into camp at 290, 20 lbs lighter but by the end of the year it looked like he had put the 20 back on again and was up around 309 again. He has been at around 309 for so long now that I am not sure he will ever get lighter than that for any significant length of time. At least it will take a significant effort to do so and I don't think he wants to go there. All by way of saying that for better or worse he has been pitching at about 309 for very long time now.

[FredLynn]

Everyone is taking Henry's Crawford comment the wrong way. He was trying to answer a question that Felger or Mazz asked about whether ownership makes the call about players or whether baseball ops does' date=' and he was crystal clear that baseball ops is the team that analyzes and finds players and brings the proposal to the table, and then, after that point, the combination of ops and ownership either decide to make an offer/sign the player or not make an offer/not sign the player. In no way could someone listen to that interview and think that Henry was singling out Carl Crawford, or cutting him down, or what have you. Henry was talking about THE PROCESS. Like I posted in the Henry radio show thread, why did everyone in Boston turn into a completely irrational dickwad since the collapse. It was a collapse of players playing poorly on the field for about a 4 week period. Out of a 24-week season. If the Sox are smart, which they are, they will hyper-focus on getting a strong new manager this off-season, while figuring out how its entire starting rotation failed so miserably IN A FOUR WEEK PERIOD. Anyone who thinks this is because of chicken, beer, clubhouse leadership, Terry's pain pills, marriages, cancer, Lackey's ugly mug, or what have you IS ON GLUE. Jesus, people! Snap out of it![/quote']

 

I still think that comment about Crawford was better left unmade, be it true or not

[Cairns_Sox]

Ballplayers have been drinking beer and eating chicken since baseball was invented.

 

Who wasn't doing their workouts? According to Henry today, and Dustin Pedroia, the pitchers were in fact doing all of their workouts--cardio, shoulder, legs--all season long. So unless Pedroia's lying, or unless all the trainers are lying to Henry/Tito/etc., it would appear that all the pitchers started underperforming at the same time. Is there a chance that's connected to their workout regimens? Yes there's absolutely that chance. That's why Henry said they're looking into everything, and they're going to get to the bottom of this. I believe him too.

 

And as for the absolute witch hunt on many of the Sox players that fans on message boards have taken up torches for and gone on, frankly, I think YOUR (the collective your) argument(s) is/are a bit extreme. Seriously, do you guys honestly think that there was no beer, chicken, and/or video games in the clubhouses in '03, '04, '07, '08, '09, '10 and in '11 before the September collapse? That Beckett and Lackey and company dramatically changed their behavior in '11 that never ever existed before? I think that's an extremely stupid thing to think, because pitchers are some of the most regimented, superstitious, stubborn bastards on the planet.

 

Are you honestly just falling hook, line and sinker for things that you're reading in THE BOSTON GLOBE, the paper that employs Dan Shaughnessy, Nick Cafardo and others?

 

Now, the Sox higher ups may investigate all this stuff and determine that the pitching staff was drastically unregimented or out of their usual physical conditioning regimens or malnourished/overfed (really??? Did anyone but me see CC Sabathia pitch and grow in girth this year??) and that that resulted in the collapse. But I'm not believing any unnamed sources from the Globe. I'm going to wait until the real professionals who know what's going on here get to the real truth and the heart of the matter before I go nailing Jon Lester and Josh Beckett to the cross.

 

But jump to as many conclusions as you want. Hope you're having fun.

 

So if none of the reported issues had anything to do with the biggest collapse in history, can you explain why it happened? Can u seriously sit there and believe that all our starting pitchers just "suddenly" sucked?

 

 

Btw just to clarify, I know without any shadow of a doubt their is beer etc in the clubhouse all through the year. But for these guys to be up there during September, whilst the ship is sinking is beyond a joke. Especially when Josh Beckett is supposed to be a leader out there.

[SoxSport]

Your laast point is 100% on the money.

 

Most teams don't have one anymore. In the old days, the team press guy insulated the team from the press. Players weren't as accessible as now.

 

Nowadays, they even have to let women reporters in the dressing areas--after 10-15 minutes.

The media is a lot more intrusive nowadays--because of the power TV has on team revenues.

TV even sets up a lot of the scheduling. That's why teams have to kowtow to the media.

[SoxSport]

The Globe is sounding pretty hysterical these days.

 

To think they took the status quo line immediately following the end of the season--before the

management meeting. They were not in favor of letting anybody go. The floodgates opened

at the Globe after Tito was eased out.

 

A lot of the talk about beer, pills, etc, is looking at the trees.

 

You have to step back and look at the forest. What you see is a lax organization--from the top down.

Everybody at fault. The manager and the coaches for not doing their jobs. The GM for carelessly spending money and making bad decisions affecting the team chemistry, and the upper management for creating the environment where this could happen--and not doing anything about it sooner.

 

The tipoff, by the way, was last year--so many injuries. Some people were perceptive enough then to suggest a lack of conditioning, and maybe the manager was too soft. Breakdowns don't happen overnight.

[SoxSport]

I still think that comment about Crawford was better left unmade' date=' be it true or not[/quote']

 

Yeah--they took the comment out of context.

Henry didn't want to sign another free agent after getting AdGon. It was nothing personal with Crawford.

 

Another reason why Henry should shut up and hire a media spokeperson.

 

I'm starting to get pissed off at the Globe because I think they are damaging the Red Sox right now as much as the September collapse.

[ORS]

Yeah--they took the comment out of context.

Henry didn't want to sign another free agent after getting AdGon. It was nothing personal with Crawford.

 

Another reason why Henry should shut up and hire a media spokeperson.

 

I'm starting to get pissed off at the Globe because I think they are damaging the Red Sox right now as much as the September collapse.

It's the Boston media, what else would you expect? Especially when it's the representative from the dying media form (print media). They know how to get attention/interest in this town.

[ORS]

The tipoff' date=' by the way, was last year--so many injuries. Some people were perceptive enough then to suggest a lack of conditioning, and maybe the manager was too soft. Breakdowns don't happen overnight.[/quote']

Nice try. I know you like to pat yourself on the back about your pet issue, and this year there is some validity to concerns about conditioning, but last year's damaging injuries were impact injuries with no connection to conditioning. You can't go back that far to retroactively give yourself credit.

[a700hitter]

Nice try. I know you like to pat yourself on the back about your pet issue' date=' and this year there is some validity to concerns about conditioning, but last year's damaging injuries were impact injuries with no connection to conditioning. You can't go back that far to retroactively give yourself credit.[/quote']Was Buchholz's injury an impact injury? I don't consider pitching from him normal windup an impact injury. I think they gave him a strengthening rehab program to prevent future recurrences. What about the general inability of the starters to pitch beyond 5 or 6 innings without their pitches becoming balloons? Is a sports hernia an impact injury or a wear and tear type injury? I don't know. I'm not a doctor, but certainly I think Youk's overall conditioning would have been better served if he lost 30 lbs. Finally, I refuse to believe that Bobby Jenks' injuries were due to anything but his fatness.

[FredLynn]

Was Buchholz's injury an impact injury? I don't consider pitching from him normal windup an impact injury. I think they gave him a strengthening rehab program to prevent future recurrences. What about the general inability of the starters to pitch beyond 5 or 6 innings without their pitches becoming balloons? Is a sports hernia an impact injury or a wear and tear type injury? I don't know. I'm not a doctor' date=' but certainly I think Youk's overall conditioning would have been better served if he lost 30 lbs. Finally, I refuse to believe that Bobby Jenks' injuries were due to anything but his fatness.[/quote']

 

I AM a doctor but I am a pediatrician. CB's injury was not an impact injury, it was an overuse injury. He stated very clearly that his first MRI was not done until August when the fracture was discovered. His back pain began in July. Why didn't they do an MRI in July? Its not a risky procedure at all and as it turned out, it cost us the use of him for a month. They also misdiagnosed Ellsbury and his second rib fracture last year. Another mistake. And the strength and conditioning folks allowed several players to become fat during the season, including Youk and Beckett. Its only common sense that a better conditioned athlete will have more endurance and fewer injuries from which he will heal faster than someone who is out of shape. Both the medical staff and the strength and conditioning staff need to be replaced IMO.

[ORS]

Was Buchholz's injury an impact injury? I don't consider pitching from him normal windup an impact injury. I think they gave him a strengthening rehab program to prevent future recurrences. What about the general inability of the starters to pitch beyond 5 or 6 innings without their pitches becoming balloons? Is a sports hernia an impact injury or a wear and tear type injury? I don't know. I'm not a doctor' date=' but certainly I think Youk's overall conditioning would have been better served if he lost 30 lbs. Finally, I refuse to believe that Bobby Jenks' injuries were due to anything but his fatness.[/quote']

You are referring to this year's injuries, correct?

 

My reply was to a point about last year's injuries. Pedroia broke his foot with a foul ball. Youkilis tore ligaments in his thumb. Those were the two most damaging injuries to team production last year.

[FredLynn]

You are referring to this year's injuries, correct?

 

My reply was to a point about last year's injuries. Pedroia broke his foot with a foul ball. Youkilis tore ligaments in his thumb. Those were the two most damaging injuries to team production last year.

 

The medical staff also sent Pedey back out there before he was really ready last year, only to realize their mistake and sit him back down. I am glad it didn't get worse as a result of that error.

[ORS]

The medical staff also sent Pedey back out there before he was really ready last year' date=' only to realize their mistake and sit him back down. I am glad it didn't get worse as a result of that error.[/quote']

I have no disagreement with the statement that the medical team has been a bumbling group the last few years. Free agents and trade acquisitions have come in only to subsequently find out lingering injuries prevent them from playing, or at least playing to the level of expectation. Players are misdiagnosed. Players are rushed back to their detriment from injury. Etc, etc. Something needs to change there, along with all the other areas that need to be addressed.

[a700hitter]

You are referring to this year's injuries, correct?

 

My reply was to a point about last year's injuries. Pedroia broke his foot with a foul ball. Youkilis tore ligaments in his thumb. Those were the two most damaging injuries to team production last year.

I misread your post. I thought you were talking about 2011. Pedroia did break his foot on a foul tip. Varitek broke his foot on a foul tip and VMart broke his finger on a foul tip. I don't know if I would call Youk's injury an impact injury. He didn't tear ligaments. He tore a muscle in his hand which was kind of freakish. Wakefield was in bad condition in 2010. Beckett's conditioning was horrible in 2010. He couldn't get past 5 innings. Dice K was in terrible condition too. In general, our starting pitching was in terrible condition. Lackey was fat in 2010.

[DwightFright]

It's the Boston media' date=' what else would you expect? Especially when it's the representative from the dying media form (print media). They know how to get attention/interest in this town.[/quote']

 

All the internet hacks from ESPNBoston.com have really chimed in as well. Idiots like Edes and Howard Bryant have fed off the Globe stories to write their own hysterical criticisms lacking any original research. FAns have to realize that it is the Boston media that has created this crisis - little of this information was a need-to-know by the public. It has only hurt the Sox chances to land a quality manager or GM. THat's why we are stuck with Cherington - he helped create this BS situation. No one will convince me that he wasn't aware of anything that is truthful in the reports.

[DwightFright]

The medical staff also sent Pedey back out there before he was really ready last year' date=' only to realize their mistake and sit him back down. I am glad it didn't get worse as a result of that error.[/quote']

 

I have read the Sawxtalk posts, and as long as you are supportive of hysterical morons like brennan ( and others) ,you can't be seriously objective on the changes that need to be made with the Sox. It's time for true Sox fans to tone down the " I told you so' rhetoric and consider the rational approach the FO needs to make to improve this team.

[Palodios]

It's time for true Sox fans to tone down the " I told you so' rhetoric and consider the rational approach the FO needs to make to improve this team.

 

Sigged.

[a700hitter]

I have read the Sawxtalk posts' date=' and as long as you are supportive of hysterical morons like brennan ( and others) ,you can't be seriously objective on the changes that need to be made with the Sox. It's time for true Sox fans to tone down the " I told you so' rhetoric and consider the rational approach the FO needs to make to improve this team.[/quote']It's not the job of the fans to be rational, and that goes for when the team is winning or collapsing. Being a fan is innately irrational. It's an emotional journey, not an intellectual pursuit.

 

It's the job of the press to tone it down. It's the jog of the FO to come up with the rational approach to improve the team. We just sit and watch and discuss how we feel about it.

[seabeachfred]

I misread your post. I thought you were talking about 2011. Pedroia did break his foot on a foul tip. Varitek broke his foot on a foul tip and VMart broke his finger on a foul tip. I don't know if I would call Youk's injury an impact injury. He didn't tear ligaments. He tore a muscle in his hand which was kind of freakish. Wakefield was in bad condition in 2010. Beckett's conditioning was horrible in 2010. He couldn't get past 5 innings. Dice K was in terrible condition too. In general' date=' our starting pitching was in terrible condition. Lackey was fat in 2010.[/quote']

 

A real horror story isn't it 700? Well it gets worse, believe it or not. I was in San Francisco for that three game series in June of last year and saw Pedey get banged up on Friday, Bucholz try his slide on Saturday and be lost for almost three weeks, and saw Victor get racked up on Sunday. I kept thinking why the hell did I come to this place anyway if I had to see this? Here's the rub, though. Our less than stellar medical staff cleared Pedroia to play very prematurely and he was lost for the rest of the season---another major misdiagnosis to somewhat match the bungle on Ellsbury's.

 

No matter how you slice it 700, it seems to me that we need a new medical and strength and conditioning staff very badly. You mentioned this in another post so apparently you're thinking along the same lines as Pumpsie and me. Bad enough we have a major laundry list of personnel moves we have to make this winter including a new manager and new GM (I'm being told Cherrington is not a done deal. If you know more let me know), but before we do any of that stuff we have to be sure we have people who can help keep our team on the field next season.

 

OK, I'm a little pissed off. I'm going to be 71 in less than two weeks and I go to 24 HOur Fitness just about every day and wear myself ragged trying to keep in reasonable shape for an old war horse----and I'm not bringing in millions of dollars a year. Why the hell can't people like Youkilis, Beckett and others earn their money by taking care of themselves and staying in good shape. When they go off the reservation they still get their millions; we wind up having a miserable off season wondering why the hell our team failed to make it to the WS for the fourth year in a row.

[seabeachfred]

I have read the Sawxtalk posts' date=' and as long as you are supportive of hysterical morons like brennan ( and others) ,you can't be seriously objective on the changes that need to be made with the Sox. It's time for true Sox fans to tone down the " I told you so' rhetoric and consider the rational approach the FO needs to make to improve this team.[/quote']

 

OK Dwight, I take it you don't approve of Brennan, Muggah, Pumpsie, IPOT and me and our rants over there on Sawxheads, but I don't call it hysterical, only frustration and anger that our team was led by the wayside by a manager who had a boatload of personal baggage, a GM who was AWOL from June on, a medical staff that was once again incompetent in keeping our team healthy, a strength and conditioning staff that was one in name only, and players who were drinking beer, eating fried chicken and playing video games in the clubhouse while the game was going on. You mean that doesn't bother you either?

 

OK, for the sake of reasoning, let me hear of your rational approach that the FO needs to make to get our team up to speed. The one thing you are dead right on is that this season is over and we can't undo what has been done. I will be looking forward to reading your suggestions on the off season thread and you can read mine. We do need to move ahead because I would like the 100th Anniversary of Fenway Park to be a season totally different from the one we just endured.

[jung]

The boys over at Yawkey Way are very worried about this whole 100th Anniversary thing being sabotaged. Although I would have to say they are their own worst enemies in that regard.

[FredLynn]

I have read the Sawxtalk posts' date=' and as long as you are supportive of hysterical morons like brennan ( and others) ,you can't be seriously objective on the changes that need to be made with the Sox. It's time for true Sox fans to tone down the " I told you so' rhetoric and consider the rational approach the FO needs to make to improve this team.[/quote']

 

Excuse me?

[YAZMAN]

I said a year ago this club was reminding me of the soft Yawkey days.

 

It looks like Henry has become Mr Softee Yawkey.

 

Except he'll never be able to take BP with the boys, that's for sure.

 

 

And evidently, sometimes what you need more than anything else is simply a quick visit by Chris Hansen.

[DwightFright]

OK Dwight, I take it you don't approve of Brennan, Muggah, Pumpsie, IPOT and me and our rants over there on Sawxheads, but I don't call it hysterical, only frustration and anger that our team was led by the wayside by a manager who had a boatload of personal baggage, a GM who was AWOL from June on, a medical staff that was once again incompetent in keeping our team healthy, a strength and conditioning staff that was one in name only, and players who were drinking beer, eating fried chicken and playing video games in the clubhouse while the game was going on. You mean that doesn't bother you either?

 

OK, for the sake of reasoning, let me hear of your rational approach that the FO needs to make to get our team up to speed. The one thing you are dead right on is that this season is over and we can't undo what has been done. I will be looking forward to reading your suggestions on the off season thread and you can read mine. We do need to move ahead because I would like the 100th Anniversary of Fenway Park to be a season totally different from the one we just endured.

 

Fred, I am not proposing that I have the solutions to the Red Sox quagmire. But this is not the same frustrating situation as last offseason wherein Francona and Theo were still steering the ship after missing the postseason. They are gone. The coaches will be gone. I don't know what further shakeup fans can expect at this point without just beating a dead horse. Personally, I hope the owners make the effort to interview GM candidates outside the org if only to gain a perspective on what competent baseball people think of the Red Sox - who wants the challenge of working here, who doesn't, and why. As qualified as Cherington seems on paper, we might need a GM who is blunt with the owners and makes it clear he won't merely be a yesman if he accepts the position. Maybe no one wants to work with Lucchino, and Henry and Werner should be aware of that. Why is he so important to retain as long as we are sweeping out the offices.

 

BTW, just what are the duties of the Red Sox partners? (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos). These are merely investors and silent partners who have no vote in team management? I can't imagine these fellows are too happy withthis situation.

[Spudboy]

The boys over at Yawkey Way are very worried about this whole 100th Anniversary thing being sabotaged. Although I would have to say they are their own worst enemies in that regard.

 

Well said.