Which players ended up costing Francona his job?

[SCM33]

Francona: "I felt frustrated with my inability to reach maybe guys that I’ve been able to in the past, or affect the outcome a little bit more differently and that bothers me."

 

http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/PeteAbe/~dCgFo

 

Which players is Tito referring to? More and more will come out, but todays stories of drinking in the clubhouse during games and players who were not "at playing" weight surfaced today.

 

Which players on this team cost Francona his job? Obviously you cant blame the players completely but something went wrong here.

 

Wakefield? I think there is no way in hell he is back. He has been sour for years concerning his role. Maybe he let his goal of 200 wins get in the way of what was best for the team? I believe he was quoted as the fans "deserve" to see him 200 games, and all that did was point a bulls eye on Tito. Wake...fans deserved a winning team, not a floundering pitcher.

 

Varitek? The "go ask the captain" comment is a little striking from Crawford. Maybe there is more towards that comment in terms of Varitek that we dont know about.

 

Ortiz? He has been a grown child for over 2 years now. Even after Tito is gone Ortiz throws a jab that he was "unhappy" about being benched for parts of last season even when it was clear he could not hit lefties.

 

Youkilis? Yeah, he appears edgy, a dirt dog, and has a mean "grind it out" personality on the field. Maybe that personality wore thin with teammates and coaches.

 

Beckett? Texas tough guy. I suspect he was one of those beer drinkers. Overall, a good year......but one has to wonder if he contributed to the poison that killed this team.

 

Lackey? Absolutely 100%. f*** this guy. He sucked and wanted to be treated like a prima dona. He showed up teammates, umpires and his own coach EVERY start he made. I suspect him to be Becketts drinking buddy during games. To boot, he filed for divorce while his wife is fighting cancer.......months after he used his concern of her as an excuse for pitching poorly. f*** you Lackey, pack your bags you scumbag.

 

Drew? He never really gave a s*** about the game. He was never in the dugout. Maybe his absence and "injury" sent the wrong message to the rest of the team like, "well f*** it, if JD can make 14 million and not do s*** and not be around the club, I can act the same way".

 

Look at the players answers regarding the heartbreaking loss to the Orioles. Look who actually spoke. Those are the ones who actually cared. Pedey, Papelbon, Gonzalez (even though his comments were embarrassing), Lester and Crawford (who genuinely seemed to care). Those are the players who cared.

 

Goodbye to Varitek, Wakefield, Lackey, Drew, Youkilis and Ortiz.

 

I think Beckett can be saved with the right surrounding cast.

 

I understand that me saying goodbye to Youkilis and Ortiz is going to piss some people off, but lets face it.....while we love Youkilis, other teams hate him.....umpires cant stand his constant bitching and it could be possible that his demeanor extends inside his own clubhouse. Who knows what does inside those walls.....throw in the fact that his body is breaking down at an incredibly fast rate, and it might be time. He cant stay on the field, hes getting older, his numbers were down and he looks like a beer league softball player. Who knows what he looks like next spring, he might eat his way out of 3B. David Ortiz is a fraud in my opinion. He always has this big smile and doing his little hugs and handshakes, but I think he is not what he is selling. I think the mere fact he is playing on year to year contracts naturally makes him selfish. Even after Tito has departed, Ortiz still takes jabs at him for a diminished amount of AB's over the years. Adrian Gonzalez has to play RF even AFTER Gonzalez said he was not comfortable with it......and you know Ortiz was in Theo's ear telling him he did not want to sit during inter-league play even though Gonzalez was the better player.

 

There is a lot to think about and digest with this team, but as the days pass it will eventually become public what the problems were. For the last 2 years I have found this team hard to watch, there is something missing.....something wrong (even though many of you disagreed with me), something not measured with stats (other than missing the playoffs 2 straight years). Hopefully finally I will get those answers and everyone else will finally see what I have seen for 2 years. This is not a told you so, this is anger/sadness. I hate the fact this happened and the departure of Tito is not good enough. Hopefully this is the first brick to fall in a list of many other bricks that MUST fall.

[Cairns_Sox]

Francona: "I felt frustrated with my inability to reach maybe guys that I’ve been able to in the past, or affect the outcome a little bit more differently and that bothers me."

 

http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/PeteAbe/~dCgFo

 

Which players is Tito referring to? More and more will come out, but todays stories of drinking in the clubhouse during games and players who were not "at playing" weight surfaced today.

 

Which players on this team cost Francona his job? Obviously you cant blame the players completely but something went wrong here.

 

Wakefield? I think there is no way in hell he is back. He has been sour for years concerning his role. Maybe he let his goal of 200 wins get in the way of what was best for the team? I believe he was quoted as the fans "deserve" to see him 200 games, and all that did was point a bulls eye on Tito. Wake...fans deserved a winning team, not a floundering pitcher.

 

Varitek? The "go ask the captain" comment is a little striking from Crawford. Maybe there is more towards that comment in terms of Varitek that we dont know about.

 

Ortiz? He has been a grown child for over 2 years now. Even after Tito is gone Ortiz throws a jab that he was "unhappy" about being benched for parts of last season even when it was clear he could not hit lefties.

 

Youkilis? Yeah, he appears edgy, a dirt dog, and has a mean "grind it out" personality on the field. Maybe that personality wore thin with teammates and coaches.

 

Beckett? Texas tough guy. I suspect he was one of those beer drinkers. Overall, a good year......but one has to wonder if he contributed to the poison that killed this team.

 

Lackey? Absolutely 100%. f*** this guy. He sucked and wanted to be treated like a prima dona. He showed up teammates, umpires and his own coach EVERY start he made. I suspect him to be Becketts drinking buddy during games. To boot, he filed for divorce while his wife is fighting cancer.......months after he used his concern of her as an excuse for pitching poorly. f*** you Lackey, pack your bags you scumbag.

 

Drew? He never really gave a s*** about the game. He was never in the dugout. Maybe his absence and "injury" sent the wrong message to the rest of the team like, "well f*** it, if JD can make 14 million and not do s*** and not be around the club, I can act the same way".

 

Look at the players answers regarding the heartbreaking loss to the Orioles. Look who actually spoke. Those are the ones who actually cared. Pedey, Papelbon, Gonzalez (even though his comments were embarrassing), Lester and Crawford (who genuinely seemed to care). Those are the players who cared.

 

Goodbye to Varitek, Wakefield, Lackey, Drew, Youkilis and Ortiz.

 

I think Beckett can be saved with the right surrounding cast.

 

I understand that me saying goodbye to Youkilis and Ortiz is going to piss some people off, but lets face it.....while we love Youkilis, other teams hate him.....umpires cant stand his constant bitching and it could be possible that his demeanor extends inside his own clubhouse. Who knows what does inside those walls.....throw in the fact that his body is breaking down at an incredibly fast rate, and it might be time. He cant stay on the field, hes getting older, his numbers were down and he looks like a beer league softball player. Who knows what he looks like next spring, he might eat his way out of 3B. David Ortiz is a fraud in my opinion. He always has this big smile and doing his little hugs and handshakes, but I think he is not what he is selling. I think the mere fact he is playing on year to year contracts naturally makes him selfish. Even after Tito has departed, Ortiz still takes jabs at him for a diminished amount of AB's over the years. Adrian Gonzalez has to play RF even AFTER Gonzalez said he was not comfortable with it......and you know Ortiz was in Theo's ear telling him he did not want to sit during inter-league play even though Gonzalez was the better player.

 

There is a lot to think about and digest with this team, but as the days pass it will eventually become public what the problems were. For the last 2 years I have found this team hard to watch, there is something missing.....something wrong (even though many of you disagreed with me), something not measured with stats (other than missing the playoffs 2 straight years). Hopefully finally I will get those answers and everyone else will finally see what I have seen for 2 years. This is not a told you so, this is anger/sadness. I hate the fact this happened and the departure of Tito is not good enough. Hopefully this is the first brick to fall in a list of many other bricks that MUST fall.

 

Great post, agree with most points. It's all speculation and this is just my opinion. I strongly believe Youk, Beckett, Lackey and maybe are to blame. I'm not convinced about Tek and I believe with Wake, it was more Tito's loyalty to him to get that win, plus let's face it we didn't have many other options.

 

What is being rumoured is astounding. Beer drinking in the clubhouse during the season?? These guys are professionals. For me that is something veteran guys start and believe they can get away with it. It's the same when your in a job for a few years, maybe you become complacent as push the boundaries. Tito realized what was going on, tried to stop it but he was too late and now he has payed the price.

 

If it's me, and the above players are the problem I try my hardest to deal them. Keep Pedy and Jacoby, the guys who care as the cornerstone.

[iortiz]

LOL at Drew and Lackey comment. 14 f***ing million dollars huh! Wow! ... You can find out more discipline in a table dance. This club is a complete joke. Who in the hell is commanding this team? Who?... Some of them are not players but divas.

 

We need a coach and a GM with strong hand who applies Giuliani's zero-tolerance.

[a700hitter]

LOL at Drew an Lackey comment. 14 f***ing million dollars huh! Wow! ... You can find out more discipline in a table dance. This club is a complete joke. Who in the hell is commanding this team? Some of them are not players but divas.

Drew was a complete dog this year. It's laughable that he didn't have an injury until he lost his starting job after 3 1/2 months of complete futility. He certainly didn't try very hard to get back on the field or win his job back. He turned out to be be everything that I had heard about him from Cardinal fans-- detached, disinterested and fragile. So many people on this forum had defended him, but what a disappointing end.

[jung]

Just to clarify, the report has been that there was drinking in the clubhouse "during the game itself" by a group of the pitchers that were not pitching that day. I would see where that would send a few guys including the manager into a tailspin. That is pretty disrespectful of fellow teammates, the management, of the fans and of the game itself. Regardless of the fact that they were not pitching that day they should have been out there charting the game and supporting their teammates, not lounging in the clubhouse pouring down a few cold ones. No wonder so many of them actually gained weight during the season, something I would have thought virtually impossible.

 

The other story making the rounds is that Youk really started to get irritating in the clubhouse in the same way your post suggests he was to outsiders. While he could not play because of his injury apparently he just made himself the clubhouse critic. Apparently that got under a good many skins. Since he was not playing it looked like he had anointed himself into this role.

 

I think Papi's behavior was pretty bad. Just the incidents we know about are pretty bad given their timing.

 

Tek...ya know I hate this captain thing in baseball and the "C" just makes it that much worse. I actually think in baseball the guy that is just one of us has more credibility than some guy running around with a C on his chest especially if he is basically past it.

 

Wake....I think Wake fell victim to the "I am going to get mine syndrome". Wake was not this kind of player before we had all of these clowns running around making big money to do nothing and this is a good lesson for the FO. If you are going to give a bunch of jerks big money for doing nothing expect to find some of your other guys deciding that if you are standing their printing money they are going to make an effort to get some too. As a result you have Wake making that insane comment about the "fans deserving a chance to see him come back in 2012 and break the Sox all time win record". That was one of the most selfish and self centered comments I have ever heard from a baseball player. OK Wake if the fans deserve that, you come back in 2012 for no money and "give" that to us you tool.

 

Lackey has turned out to be one of the biggest jerks I have ever seen in a baseball uniform. If his teammates truly do love and respect him then that says more about them than it says about Lackey. If a John Lackey is there kind of guy that is not just shocking, it is revolting.

 

Remy had it right the other night. Of the guys we have kept (or could not get rid of) the FA star of the last few years is actually Drew. Can you believe it, Drew! He has at least kept his mouth shut and frankly none of what Drew has done here was not discussed in depth before Theo laid all that money on him. He was well known to be physically brittle, uninvolved and uninspiring. Don't let that stop you Theo. Your magical computer matrix said he was a wonderful player and that is all it took to get you to open the vault.

[Jasonbay44]

I blame Lackey for it all, f*** him.

[iortiz]

Drew was a complete dog this year. It's laughable that he didn't have an injury until he lost his starting job after 3 1/2 months of complete futility. He certainly didn't try very hard to get back on the field or win his job back. He turned out to be be everything that I had heard about him from Cardinal fans-- detached' date=' disinterested and fragile. So many people on this forum had defended him, but what a disappointing end.[/quote']

 

What surprise me the most is that all this happened and nobody in the FO said or did almost nothing to stop it, unbelievable. The injuries and the poor fundamentals among a lot other issues are not a coincidence, that's for sure.

[Station 13]

Just because a starter is off that day, he has zero rights to be drinking in the clubhouse. What if a game went into extra inning and a starter needs to come in? That's right you f***ing drunk *******, think it through next time, selfish prick.

[Palodios]

Lackey? Absolutely 100%. f*** this guy. He sucked and wanted to be treated like a prima dona. He showed up teammates, umpires and his own coach EVERY start he made. I suspect him to be Becketts drinking buddy during games. To boot, he filed for divorce while his wife is fighting cancer.......months after he used his concern of her as an excuse for pitching poorly. f*** you Lackey, pack your bags you scumbag.

 

Tito and Theo were very very thorough about Lackey's actions on the field. They explicitly went out of their way to defend him, and emphasized the point that he has been an excellent teammate, and Lackey will go to the player that he made those gestures to, and apologize to them the day after the game.

 

"I will say this about rolling his eyes and whatnot, that's nothing new. John has always been emotional on the mound," he said. "He's always been demonstrative. It kind of looks bad on the field, it looks as though he's showing up his teammates. It was that way in Anaheim, too.

 

"It was that way when we signed him and we also knew he always apologizes the next day. He's always a great teammate, except for those times when he's rolling his eyes, but his teammates forgive him and they understand. He's tried to change, but it's something he can't change. It's an emotional reaction and we'll continue to work with him on it, but that doesn't make him a bad teammate.

 

"Behind the scenes he's actually well-respected and well-liked. I know it doesn't look that way on the field sometimes when he's reacting to bad results. But, yes, we'll continue to work with him on that. More importantly, address issues physically, mentally and fundamentally."[/Quote]

[SoxSport]

I don't think Youkilis belongs in that group.

 

Youkilis is almost as important to the team as Pedroia.

 

Last year's collapse was coincident with Youks and then Pedroia getting hurt.

 

This year, the September collapse coincided with Youkilis being injured again.

 

Youks and Pedey are the heart and spirit of this team--whatever is left of it.

 

Youks has a sports hernia right now, and you wonder if the move to 3B was too much for him.

And with AdGon's shoulder bothering him, you have to start 2nd guessing the deal Epstein made

for AdGon. His 2nd half stats dropped dramatically, 10 HRs, OPS .893.

 

Incredibly, those two much bally-hooed preseason pickups, AdGon and Crawford, seem to have backfired on them.

Messed up their chemistry.

[Dojji]

You know who else apologiszs the next day?

 

Abusive spouses. Shouldn't let them off the hook either. Apologizing does not wipe out misbehavior, especially not systematic misbehavior.

[Palodios]

You know who else apologiszs the next day?

 

Abusive spouses. Shouldn't let them off the hook either. Apologizing does not wipe out misbehavior, especially not systematic misbehavior.

 

Right, because we should compare saying "come on, you should have made that play" to beating the s*** out of someone you love. Yeah, great comparison, especially since Lackey beat his cancer-ridden wife. He actually punched her while wearing radioactive gloves, which gave her the cancer, and caused the miscarriage.

 

 

Seriously, that is what some of you sound like.

[3rdManOut]

I blame Crawford for not putting up the numbers he was paid to put up and Lackey..........well do I even need to say anything about him at this point?

[a700hitter]

I don't think Youkilis belongs in that group.

 

Youkilis is almost as important to the team as Pedroia.

 

Last year's collapse was coincident with Youks and then Pedroia getting hurt.

 

This year, the September collapse coincided with Youkilis being injured again.

 

Youks and Pedey are the heart and spirit of this team--whatever is left of it.

 

Youks has a sports hernia right now, and you wonder if the move to 3B was too much for him.

And with AdGon's shoulder bothering him, you have to start 2nd guessing the deal Epstein made

for AdGon. His 2nd half stats dropped dramatically, 10 HRs, OPS .893.

 

Incredibly, those two much bally-hooed preseason pickups, AdGon and Crawford, seem to have backfired on them.

Messed up their chemistry.

Crawford was a mess on all fronts. AGon had a good year stats-wise, but its hard to think of a big clutch hit from him and September. Neither guy seems to have any capacity for leadership. Getting these guys while letting Beltre and VMart walk is looking like a mistake.

[3rdManOut]

They really should have kept Beltre.

[Gringo]

They really should have kept Beltre.

 

I think Beltre is all about Beltre, really. Good player, but if we're talking quality clubhouse guys, I think he's more like a JD Drew type of character.

[Gringo]

Francona: "I felt frustrated with my inability to reach maybe guys that I’ve been able to in the past, or affect the outcome a little bit more differently and that bothers me."

 

 

 

Which players is Tito referring to? More and more will come out, but todays stories of drinking in the clubhouse during games and players who were not "at playing" weight surfaced today.

 

Which players on this team cost Francona his job? Obviously you cant blame the players completely but something went wrong here.

 

Wakefield? I think there is no way in hell he is back. He has been sour for years concerning his role. Maybe he let his goal of 200 wins get in the way of what was best for the team? I believe he was quoted as the fans "deserve" to see him 200 games, and all that did was point a bulls eye on Tito. Wake...fans deserved a winning team, not a floundering pitcher.

 

Varitek? The "go ask the captain" comment is a little striking from Crawford. Maybe there is more towards that comment in terms of Varitek that we dont know about.

 

Ortiz? He has been a grown child for over 2 years now. Even after Tito is gone Ortiz throws a jab that he was "unhappy" about being benched for parts of last season even when it was clear he could not hit lefties.

 

Youkilis? Yeah, he appears edgy, a dirt dog, and has a mean "grind it out" personality on the field. Maybe that personality wore thin with teammates and coaches.

 

Beckett? Texas tough guy. I suspect he was one of those beer drinkers. Overall, a good year......but one has to wonder if he contributed to the poison that killed this team.

 

Lackey? Absolutely 100%. f*** this guy. He sucked and wanted to be treated like a prima dona. He showed up teammates, umpires and his own coach EVERY start he made. I suspect him to be Becketts drinking buddy during games. To boot, he filed for divorce while his wife is fighting cancer.......months after he used his concern of her as an excuse for pitching poorly. f*** you Lackey, pack your bags you scumbag.

 

Drew? He never really gave a s*** about the game. He was never in the dugout. Maybe his absence and "injury" sent the wrong message to the rest of the team like, "well f*** it, if JD can make 14 million and not do s*** and not be around the club, I can act the same way".

 

Look at the players answers regarding the heartbreaking loss to the Orioles. Look who actually spoke. Those are the ones who actually cared. Pedey, Papelbon, Gonzalez (even though his comments were embarrassing), Lester and Crawford (who genuinely seemed to care). Those are the players who cared.

 

Goodbye to Varitek, Wakefield, Lackey, Drew, Youkilis and Ortiz.

 

I think Beckett can be saved with the right surrounding cast.

 

I understand that me saying goodbye to Youkilis and Ortiz is going to piss some people off, but lets face it.....while we love Youkilis, other teams hate him.....umpires cant stand his constant bitching and it could be possible that his demeanor extends inside his own clubhouse. Who knows what does inside those walls.....throw in the fact that his body is breaking down at an incredibly fast rate, and it might be time. He cant stay on the field, hes getting older, his numbers were down and he looks like a beer league softball player. Who knows what he looks like next spring, he might eat his way out of 3B. David Ortiz is a fraud in my opinion. He always has this big smile and doing his little hugs and handshakes, but I think he is not what he is selling. I think the mere fact he is playing on year to year contracts naturally makes him selfish. Even after Tito has departed, Ortiz still takes jabs at him for a diminished amount of AB's over the years. Adrian Gonzalez has to play RF even AFTER Gonzalez said he was not comfortable with it......and you know Ortiz was in Theo's ear telling him he did not want to sit during inter-league play even though Gonzalez was the better player.

 

There is a lot to think about and digest with this team, but as the days pass it will eventually become public what the problems were. For the last 2 years I have found this team hard to watch, there is something missing.....something wrong (even though many of you disagreed with me), something not measured with stats (other than missing the playoffs 2 straight years). Hopefully finally I will get those answers and everyone else will finally see what I have seen for 2 years. This is not a told you so, this is anger/sadness. I hate the fact this happened and the departure of Tito is not good enough. Hopefully this is the first brick to fall in a list of many other bricks that MUST fall.

 

Ortiz is staying. He had a monster season, why let him go?

 

It seems like Youk is breaking down, though.

 

Tek and Wake look to be gone. Where was Tek for all of this mess? When the Captain goes AWOL, it's time for the captain to step aside.

 

Lackey is clearly a liability on the mound, and a distraction off of it. I think they eat his contract.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I wish they kept Beltre too. Watching him at 3rd last season was great, and he hit damn well too. They could of gotten rid of Youkilis and I quite honestly wouldn't of given a damn. He's always come across as a douchebag. Always seemed like a high tempered crybaby. Less people like him and Lackey on the team would benefit the sox greatly. I feel the same way about Beckett too, with his damn personal catcher and all that garbage.

 

 

And I don't think Beltre is a JD Drew type of character at all. He seemed to get along fine with everyone last year. He was quiet, sure, but not everyone has to be the center of attention like Pedroia.

[Gringo]

There was a scene in the dugout last year with Beltre that has always stuck in my mind. He had hit a home run, and some of the players were rubbing his head, and he kind of flung his body away with a real scowl on his face, as if to say "Get the **** off of me." I saw Youk look stunned. Strange moment.

[a700hitter]

I wish they kept Beltre too. Watching him at 3rd last season was great, and he hit damn well too. They could of gotten rid of Youkilis and I quite honestly wouldn't of given a damn. He's always come across as a douchebag. Always seemed like a high tempered crybaby. Less people like him and Lackey on the team would benefit the sox greatly. I feel the same way about Beckett too, with his damn personal catcher and all that garbage.

 

 

And I don't think Beltre is a JD Drew type of character at all. He seemed to get along fine with everyone last year. He was quiet, sure, but not everyone has to be the center of attention like Pedroia.

The problem with Youk is his body is wearing down quickly. He's a force in the lineup when health as borne out by his OPS. However, I think he will have trouble staying on the field. The FO should have traded Youk and kept Beltre. I have always liked Youkilis borderline psycho intensity. I think it helps to keep the other players on edge. There wasn't enough edge going down the stretch.

[a700hitter]

I wish they kept Beltre too. Watching him at 3rd last season was great, and he hit damn well too. They could of gotten rid of Youkilis and I quite honestly wouldn't of given a damn. He's always come across as a douchebag. Always seemed like a high tempered crybaby. Less people like him and Lackey on the team would benefit the sox greatly. I feel the same way about Beckett too, with his damn personal catcher and all that garbage.

 

 

And I don't think Beltre is a JD Drew type of character at all. He seemed to get along fine with everyone last year. He was quiet, sure, but not everyone has to be the center of attention like Pedroia.

Betre is the opposite of Drew in that he fights to stay on the field even when injured while JD would take himself out of a game after hitting a HR when we had no OFers left on the bench.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

There was a scene in the dugout last year with Beltre that has always stuck in my mind. He had hit a home run' date=' and some of the players were rubbing his head, and he kind of flung his body away with a real scowl on his face, as if to say "Get the **** off of me." I saw Youk look stunned. Strange moment.[/quote']

 

That happened multiple times... Beltre has a superstition about people touching his head or something. He doesn't like it. But if you ever noticed, players would walk by him in the dugout, purposely try to touch his had and run off laughing as Beltre swatted them away. Then Beltre would crack a smile afterward. He wasn't being an *******, everyone was having a good time.

 

The problem with Youk is his body is wearing down quickly. He's a force in the lineup when health as borne out by his OPS. However' date=' I think he will have trouble staying on the field. The FO should have traded Youk and kept Beltre. I have always liked Youkilis borderline psycho intensity. I think it helps to keep the other players on edge. There wasn't enough edge going down the stretch.[/quote']

 

He is going to have a lot of trouble staying on the field, I agree. I don't mind intense players, but Youkilis seems like the kind of guy who could get on your nerves as a teammate. Take for example the criticism of Ellsbury when he broke his rib. Complaining about him trying to get help instead of traveling with the team, which is stupid especially since Youk ended up being hurt most of last year and a lot of this year himself. And apparently he was STILL criticizing him this year. And there was the time he got in Manny's face and Manny wasn't hearing any of that s***. I know it would get on my nerves to have some guy telling me to stop being a pussy or any sort of s*** when he himself is hurt and underperforming.

[Station 13]

Beltre is a hit in Texas. They also adapted the tradition of rubbing his head.

 

You know Beltre has a great work ethic and keep himself in peak condition. He average 150 games a season over his career. Please you can't put him and Drew in the same sentence. I think Beltre will be a HoF one day.

[Cairns_Sox]

So am I the only that thinks Youks is part of the problem and is someone we need to try and deal?

[DwightFright]

IMO Crawford's postgame comments don't necessarily indicate that he cares about the team. He was totally overwhelmed with guilt over his final nail in the Red Sox season by ignoring what should have been a running shoe-string catch. It would have made no difference if he whiffed on it - the run was going to score if he didn't catch it. He knows he was a majot disappointment in 2011 - and in total " I'm sooo sorry" mode. If he was sincere, he would have made the effort to match his skill set some time ago. I think he needs a major attitude adjustment. He plays with no confidence, and he probably sensed that his teammates couldn't depnd upon him as a clutch player. He might just be a small market player - out of the spotlight. I think Joe Madden must have held his hand a lot in TB.

[example1]

Good post SCM. I agree with everything you said. There's a lot there...

 

I think certain players deserve plenty of responsibility for what happened. It's completely the players fault that they aren't in the playoffs right now. 9-18 in September and the team is in.

 

It's the FO"s fault that the team wasn't good enough to compete with a team like PHI. Theo and Co need to do a better job on numerous levels, but they put together a team that--skill wise--is more than sufficient to win the division and play at home throughout the playoffs.

 

Anyway, as for players, it's the same group you've identified, maybe minus JD Drew. Mostly because who cares about Drew? He's gone anyway.

 

The only interesting players to discuss in my opinion are Ortiz and Youkilis. Varitek should go. Wakefield should go. Lackey can't go anywhere. Beckett is leadable, but not a leader himself. He's also a great pitcher.

 

So Youk and Ortiz. I agree that trading Youk is probably the best option, because this team needs some help elsewhere.

 

I don't know enough about Youk as a teammate to see how large a part of the problem he is. He's a tremendous player and very versatile, so they obviously would need to get a lot in return for him.

 

Lots of moves to make. The team may look worse on paper next year, but I suspect it will be just as good if not better if they make the changes that need to be made.

[3rdManOut]

I think Beltre is all about Beltre' date=' really. Good player, but if we're talking quality clubhouse guys, I think he's more like a JD Drew type of character.[/quote']

 

You may actually be right on that. Unfortunatley I was maybe thinking more of the numbers he put up at bat then the chemistry he might add to the club house. Very good point.

[Gringo]

So am I the only that thinks Youks is part of the problem and is someone we need to try and deal?

 

I think it's speculation unless you have some kind of proof.

 

Based on what we've been hearing, it seems like there is a fractured clubhouse, and probably at least two cliques, of which are comprised of players we can all probably guess...but even then, it's still just guessing.

[a700hitter]

So am I the only that thinks Youks is part of the problem and is someone we need to try and deal?

I don't think his attitude is a problem. We'd be better off if more players were as intense as Youkilis. I am concerned that he may not be able to stay on the field and be productive. His trade value can't be too high right now.

[example1]

Betre is the opposite of Drew in that he fights to stay on the field even when injured while JD would take himself out of a game after hitting a HR when we had no OFers left on the bench.

 

A700, what do you think about those who are saying that Ortiz should probably go next year? I think you've been (appropriately) a huge champion of Ortiz's production on the field, but you've also been one of the strongest supporters of the FO/management doing what needs to be done and addressing problems.

 

If it turns out that he is part of the problem, what would you think about moving on without him? Would you prefer to eliminate the clubhouse problem without an obvious solution to the production?

 

I'm genuinely curious. It seems like you've been quiet on this...