Francona Apparently Leaving Sox

[d-money]

The rays farm system is ridiculous.These guys know how to built pitchers in the minors.

[3rdManOut]

Not that it matters anymore (in regards to Francona) but just how much imput does a manager have in regards to what players he manages on a team? I get the feeling that Tito didnt have much say in such talks. (Im no expert thank God, Im just asking) I get the feeling Tito didnt have much choice in this team at all.

[3rdManOut]

Oh and also I thought our farm system was supposed to be really really good. Did we not utilize that enough?

[Spitball]

The rays farm system is ridiculous.These guys know how to built pitchers in the minors.

 

It certainly helps to finish with the worst record in baseball and get high draft choices for several years. Just sayin', but they have done a great job of developing those guys.

[d-money]

Well the sox have also gotten first round picks as well and i am waiting for the next great pitcher in the minors.

[vjcsmoke]

Thanks for all you've done for the Red Sox Tito. 2004 was pure magic. 2007 was a great repeat. This last season was a bad note to see you off. But best of luck for the rest of your career wherever it may be. And thanks for the memories.

[Spitball]

Well the sox have also gotten first round picks as well and i am waiting for the next great pitcher in the minors.

 

First round picks are not all equal. The Rays had a number of number one through fives where the Sox have been in the twenties for decades.

[d-money]

Well Raunado was considered a top 10 talent.Also i heard alot of good stuff on Matt Barnes.Raunado has to improve next year.

[Cairns_Sox]

Obviously the rumors about the dis-unity in the clubhouse are true. If these group of players really respected Tito after the last 8 years, they would have taken some accountability and marched into ownership as a unit and declared Tito should stay. Who knows what good it would have done as I believe ownership had their mind made up well before September as they surely would exercised his options then.

[jacksonianmarch]

Well Raunado was considered a top 10 talent.Also i heard alot of good stuff on Matt Barnes.Raunado has to improve next year.

 

Ranaudo is a top 10 talent for the sox. He is probably a 80-100+ player for all of MLB.

[jacksonianmarch]

Oh and also I thought our farm system was supposed to be really really good. Did we not utilize that enough?

 

your system was great. You graduated a few (Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Pedroia, Reddick, Bard, Papelbon), traded a bunch (Hanley, Masterson, Hagadone, Anibal Sanchez, Casey Kelly, Rizzo, etc). And then you shifted gears and drafted HSers big time since 2009, which puts a lot of their ETA's into the 2013-2015 yrs.

[SoxSport]

First round picks are not all equal. The Rays had a number of number one through fives where the Sox have been in the twenties for decades.

 

No doubt the Rays have benefitted from their position in the draft. They also draft pitching very well. The kid who just threw the shutout, Moore, was drafted about 28th.

 

The Red Sox since the Yawkey days have always stressed hitting over pitching. That has been their downfall over the years, in my view. Even now, their drafting doesn't have the same emphasis on pitching as Tampa Bay's.

 

Epstein has traded away young pitchers for hitters (Masterson and Kelly), choosing to spend big bucks on FA pitchers like Lackey. He might have been better off not renting VMart for Masterson, and not trading for AdGon. Now he has both AdGon and Youks hurting. Theo hasn't done a lot right the last couple of years.

[SoxSport]

Not that it matters anymore (in regards to Francona) but just how much imput does a manager have in regards to what players he manages on a team? I get the feeling that Tito didnt have much say in such talks. (Im no expert thank God' date=' Im just asking) I get the feeling Tito didnt have much choice in this team at all.[/quote']

 

Things the fans aren't supposed to know, and the media won't say even if they did know.

[Spitball]

No doubt the Rays have benefitted from their position in the draft. They also draft pitching very well. The kid who just threw the shutout, Moore, was drafted about 28th.

 

The Red Sox since the Yawkey days have always stressed hitting over pitching. That has been their downfall over the years, in my view. Even now, their drafting doesn't have the same emphasis on pitching as Tampa Bay's.

 

Epstein has traded away young pitchers for hitters (Masterson and Kelly), choosing to spend big bucks on FA pitchers like Lackey. He might have been better off not renting VMart for Masterson, and not trading for AdGon. Now he has both AdGon and Youks hurting. Theo hasn't done a lot right the last couple of years.

 

I do totally not disagree.

[Dojji]

I can't agree with that. We've had great pitchers over the years. We had three very good ones this year before Buchholz went down. The issue has been that we have a hitter's park, which can make it hard to flesh out a staff

 

Also TB has drafted well above the median. We do OK at the draft, But Tampa has nailed it for several consectuve season. They really need to because it's the only way they're going to wind up with premium talent. Sometimes I think that the ability of big markets to go out and sign top players makes them lazy about developing their own. The Sox fell into that over the last 2-3 years. They need to turn it around, quickly.

[dominicanredsox]

Agree! This will give those who want to step up the latitude to do so without hurting someone's ego!

 

makes sense also

 

 

 

RUMOR IS MANAGEMENT MIGHT BE LOOKING INTO TONY PENA AS THE NEXT REDSOX MANAGER......WHAT ARE EVERYONES THOUGHTS ON THAT ?

[jacksonianmarch]

I just heard Don Wakamatsu

[Hawkguy]

I can't agree with that. We've had great pitchers over the years. We had three very good ones this year before Buchholz went down. The issue has been that we have a hitter's park, which can make it hard to flesh out a staff

 

Also TB has drafted well above the median. We do OK at the draft, But Tampa has nailed it for several consectuve season. They really need to because it's the only way they're going to wind up with premium talent. Sometimes I think that the ability of big markets to go out and sign top players makes them lazy about developing their own. The Sox fell into that over the last 2-3 years. They need to turn it around, quickly.

 

I know for me, that when a Lester or a Buckholtz or a papelbon come up through our system, it gives me a huge sense of pride. To scout and develop these talented players should also be a huge sense of pride for the organization.

 

My brother was drafted by the Guardians organization as a pitcher. He made it to AAA but since has become a journeymen through the various minor leagues. The percentage of drafted talent that actually do make it to the majors is so slim, I'd have better luck winning the lotto. That is why it is so rewarding when our organization scouts and drafts someone that makes it to the big club.

[a700hitter]

Ignore that spin from the brass - he was fired

By Dan Shaughnessy

Globe Columnist / October 1, 2011

 

Terry Francona was fired yesterday. The longtime manager and the Red Sox brass used a lot of polite words and tried to make it sound mutual, but Francona turns out to be the first victim of the greatest collapse in baseball history.

 

On a bizarre and historic Friday at Fenway, the Sox and Francona generated more spin than the Harlem Globetrotters.

 

Francona blamed himself, worked hard to stay on message, but late in his goodbye press session, he veered off the rails and threw John Henry under the team charter.

 

“To be honest with you, I’m not sure how much support there was from ownership,’’ Francona offered. “You’ve got to be all-in on this job. It’s got to be everybody together, and I was questioning that a little bit.’’

 

Bingo. Henry has had Francona in his crosshairs for a couple of years. Ultimately, Francona was not enough of a numbers guy to satisfy Boston’s Moneyball boss.

 

All summer long, even when the Sox were rolling, the ball club steadfastly refused to trigger Francona’s contract extension. The 7-20 finish made Francona a perfect scapegoat.

 

There were plenty of real issues that led to Francona’s demise. With a $161 million payroll (third highest in baseball) and 15 former All-Stars, the Sox finished third for a second straight season. Francona lost the clubhouse. He loved his players, covered for them, and they turned Fenway Park into Delta House. It was Pete Carroll Redux. Treat them like men, they run all over you, then say, “You messed up. You trusted us.’’

 

Based on Francona’s non-denial, it’s apparently true that some of the Sox’ starting pitchers were drinking in the clubhouse during games they were not scheduled to start. A report in yesterday’s Herald broke the story and Francona rejected an opportunity to say that it was untrue.

 

Still, the Sox will want you to believe that Francona was not fired. They’re going with a fairy tale that the front office and the manager of eight years simply decided to part ways. It was the theme of the 5:30 p.m. press release announcing the change, and team chairman Tom Werner and general manager Theo Epstein kept the charade going last night - less than an hour after Francona effectively acknowledged he was not invited back.

 

It was ridiculous. Like the cataclysmic end of the season, this whole day was ridiculous.

“It’s my decision,’’ Francona said. “I think it was time for a new voice here . . . I wanted our guys to care about each other on the field and I didn’t think we were doing that.’’

 

Epstein said Francona “decided that there were certain things that needed to be done that he couldn’t do . . . and this team would benefit from hearing a new voice.’’Continued...

 

But ultimately it was a disconnect between Henry and Francona that prompted this change.

 

Henry did not appear at last night’s press conference. Lucchino and Werner said Henry “wanted to be here,’’ but reported that Henry had sustained a minor injury during the day.

 

Like everything else in Henrytown, Francona’s dismissal was rooted in the numbers. Eight years is a long time for anyone to manage the same baseball team. A 162-game season provides thousands of potential second-guesses for a stat-crazed owner. The longer Francona managed here, the more decisions Henry questioned.

 

Certainly there were some head-scratchers at the end. Maybe letting Tim Wakefield make nine tries for win No. 200 was a mistake. Pinch running Lars Anderson for Adrian Gonzalez last Sunday was interesting. Francona’s decision to bat Ryan Lavarnway (second big-league start at catcher) in the No. 5 spot behind Gonzalez Wednesday played right into the hands of Orioles manager Buck Showalter. Showalter intentionally walked Gonzalez three times and Lavarnway made the final out three times, stranding six runners. This was not God’s will. This was a blunder by the Boston manager.

 

Francona represented a nice blend of old school and Moneyball. He always had a computer on his desk, but had reverence and respect for the baseball lifers who played when his dad played in the 1950s and ’60s. But it was hard to deal with daily lineup suggestions delivered by everyone from Bill James to new stat guru Tom Tippett. Epstein and the minions were relentless.

 

Francona knew this day was coming. So he forced the issue, then spoke from his heart . . . just once.

 

“I was actually puzzled by that comment,’’ said Lucchino. “I must confess to being a little puzzled by what was different than in previous years.’’

 

Too bad Henry was not there to answer the charge.

 

Francona might go down as the best manager in the 111-year history of the franchise. Only Joe Cronin managed longer. Only Don Zimmer had a higher winning percentage (among those who managed here for at least five years). And when you break an 86-year-old championship drought, win two World Series titles in four seasons, you don’t have to worry about your legacy.

 

It’ll be interesting to see who the Sox can hire. Henry and Co. like big-name talent, but they also like someone who’ll go by their book. Bobby Valentine is not going to let sunshine-starved stat geeks dictate the lineup.

 

Maybe Philip Seymour Hoffman is available.

 

Dan Shaughnessy is a Globe columnist. He can be reached at dshaughnessy@globe.com.

© Copyright 2011 Globe Newspaper Company.

Good for Tito that he threw the owners under the bus. Tito was left with a skeleton crew of prima donas and malcontents to go down the stretch and they let him twist in the wind and made him the scapegoat. The rest of them mouthed stuff about being accountable, but they aren't be held accountable.

 

Like Shaughnessy said the whole day was ridiculous just like the end of the season.

[SoxSport]

The problem is the whole organization is at fault, and only Francona is suffering the consequences.

 

There is a whole lot of ass-covering going on here--by everyone.

 

Tito was fired--for sure.

[jacksonianmarch]

Shaugnessy is starting to warm up the hate machine again. I kinda miss some of Shaugnessy's vitriolic articles. I have a feeling the entire winter will be filled with them

[a700hitter]

Shaugnessy is starting to warm up the hate machine again. I kinda miss some of Shaugnessy's vitriolic articles. I have a feeling the entire winter will be filled with them

What's different this time is that he is not directing the hate at the guy who just got kicked out the door. This time he is showing some balls and directing it at the people who remained behind- the ass-covering FO and owner.

[TedWilkes42]

It's everywhere.

 

 

 

And I'd love to have Joe Torre. I always liked him even when he was with the Yankees. And imagine the slap in the Yankees face if he becomes out manager and leads us to like 3 WS victories.

 

Stunning to see the worst collapse in baseball history didn't instill one gram of reality into you.

Torre had success in New York built around a solid core, a TRUE captain, veterans who never lost the discipline and hunger to win, effective use of their farm system, and ownership that made smart decisions.

You've completely abandoned any willingness to rebuilt in a steady, patient manner. Do Sox fans think one magic bullet will somehow bless them with the success they think they are entitled to?

Boston the most "coveted job" in baseball? A team anchored by a bloated payroll, no pitching staff, and an unhealthy obsession with the greatest sports franchise ever?

 

Fuggetaboutit.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Stunning to see the worst collapse in baseball history didn't instill one gram of reality into you.

Torre had success in New York built around a solid core, a TRUE captain, veterans who never lost the discipline and hunger to win, effective use of their farm system, and ownership that made smart decisions.

You've completely abandoned any willingness to rebuilt in a steady, patient manner. Do Sox fans think one magic bullet will somehow bless them with the success they think they are entitled to?

Boston the most "coveted job" in baseball? A team anchored by a bloated payroll, no pitching staff, and an unhealthy obsession with the greatest sports franchise ever?

 

Fuggetaboutit.

 

[Emmz]

Stunning to see the worst collapse in baseball history didn't instill one gram of reality into you.

Torre had success in New York built around a solid core, a TRUE captain, veterans who never lost the discipline and hunger to win, effective use of their farm system, and ownership that made smart decisions.

You've completely abandoned any willingness to rebuilt in a steady, patient manner. Do Sox fans think one magic bullet will somehow bless them with the success they think they are entitled to?

Boston the most "coveted job" in baseball? A team anchored by a bloated payroll, no pitching staff, and an unhealthy obsession with the greatest sports franchise ever?

 

Fuggetaboutit.

 

Lol, since you're obviously here for the sake of trolling, you could at least criticize the Sox for things that are true, and praise the Yankees for things that are true.

 

"bloated payroll", LOL. That's funny, considering the Yankees blow every other team out of the water in payroll. The Sox have a ace, a pair of guys who are legit number 2 pitchers for almost any staff, and they have no pitching staff? No core to build around? I think the core of Gonzo, Pedroia and Ellsbury is a excellent core.

 

I won't waste any more time discussing how weak your post is, because you won't be around for long I'm sure.

[YAZMAN]

Shaugnessy is starting to warm up the hate machine again. I kinda miss some of Shaugnessy's vitriolic articles. I have a feeling the entire winter will be filled with them

 

Shank is Bozo the Clown's long-lost ******* brother.

[La Munson]

"But it was hard to deal with daily lineup suggestions delivered by everyone from Bill James to new stat guru Tom Tippett. Epstein and the minions were relentless."

 

Why not just have Bill James general manage now that I think of it, he already seems to have a pretty big voice in the organization, and the guy seems to do no wrong.

 

I doubt he'd let them sign guys like Lackey or Crawford either, knowing how much they would decline during their years.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Random suggestion for manager... Mike Lowell? He seems like he'd have good leadership qualities.

[TedWilkes42]

Lol, since you're obviously here for the sake of trolling, you could at least criticize the Sox for things that are true, and praise the Yankees for things that are true.

 

"bloated payroll", LOL. That's funny, considering the Yankees blow every other team out of the water in payroll. The Sox have a ace, a pair of guys who are legit number 2 pitchers for almost any staff, and they have no pitching staff? No core to build around? I think the core of Gonzo, Pedroia and Ellsbury is a excellent core.

 

I won't waste any more time discussing how weak your post is, because you won't be around for long I'm sure.

 

So criticising the Sox is trolling?

Yes, bloated payroll. Sox are paying way to much for multiple players, batters and pitches, who are delivering way to little. The Yankees are probably paying too much for A-Rod, but the other high dollar players are delivering.

I never said the Sox have no core to built aroundPedroia and Ells are a good core to build around. They've proven themselves and either would be a good captain. But Gonzo still has a lot to prove as far as contributing when the team needs him.

[Dojji]

What's different this time is that he is not directing the hate at the guy who just got kicked out the door. This time he is showing some balls and directing it at the people who remained behind- the ass-covering FO and owner.

 

Pretty much. This kind of scenario is the whole reason you put up with a Dan Shaungnessy in the good times. Because occasionally you do need a guy who isn't afraid to point out that the owner's crap stinks too.