2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

If you were consistent you wouldn't play the forecasting game. You would withhold judgment until the end of the season.

You guys are acting as if it matters which particular mix of players the team has when, by your own logic, a teamful of Kelly schoppachs that wins 91 games is superior to a teamful of Dustin pedroias that wins 90. I'm smart enough to recognize that all this talk of "haven't done enough..." will be swept aside by the all powerful "resultsianism" at the end of the season. It's just a matter of time.

 

Why not E1? Can't I forecast from what I see? I don't think so...

 

On the other hand when the season ends I will balance and emit my opinion about (plan vs result). What's wrong with that? As I said, that's another kind of discussion.

[a700hitter]

Nope. So if we get Jackson I expect no more pessimism from you old man.

Do you think that I am any happier with my mistakes than the mistakes of others? Not at all. If Benny and me are both mistaken about Jackson, I will still call it a mistake.

[example1]

First of all' date=' if people make mistakes it doesn't mean that they are stupid. I haven't called him stupid, (my Benny the Boob comment aside that was an attempt at humor). As far as finding reasonable explanations, isn't it reasonable to go by what has been reported in the press? At least they claim to have sources. We are at least using the only available information that we have-- the press reports. Your explanation is completely unsubstantiated.[/quote']

 

Every other year your explanation about the press is that the FO does everything it can to manipulate them. Now, when the press is reporting things that make the FO look less than capable, the press is all we have to go by. It is consistent with your pessimism, but not consistent with your own logic.

 

 

Finally, with regard to your comment/advice about "withholding judgment until the results are in", wouldn't any discussion at that point just be 20-20 hindsight? What's wrong with discussing what we think now? Isn't that what you are doing with your explanation of how you think it went down and your faith in our pitching depth of Silva, Cook, and Padilla?

 

I'm perfectly capable of pontificating about what I think the season will be like. I think that how they put together the team on paper actually matters and is driven by the logic about how to assess and build a baseball team. I'm not the one who was touting "results are all that matters" when the season ended.

 

I think baseball and strat-o-matic baseball aren't that different. The best you can do is construct teams based on previous performance and likely future performance. The season is essentially a series of dice-rolls and exists in a game by game, out by out, pitch by pitch world. The "results" crowd evaluates the team based on the dice-rolls, I evaluate it based on the players and their previous/likely performance, and the dice-rolls.

 

Results gives no room for the construction of the team, only the way the cards fall (to mix my metaphores).

 

BTW: How do I contradict myself at the end of the season? Why when the news about the Sox is not encouraging do you always blame the messenger? We're just discussing what is in the press reports. Recent news: Scutaro traded in salary dump, Ross signed, Oswalt to probably sign with Cards, and Jackson a long shot to sign with Sox. This is all in the press reports. We are not making it up.

 

I'm not blaming the messenger. I'm just advocating for people to see how this plays out, rather than littering the board with the same pessimistic nonsense based on the most recent post on mlbtraderumors.com. They either will get another decent SP or they won't. It's not that complicated.

[Palodios]

Don't let me bring you down. They should be still hanging in there until July when you make your trip to see the Yankees. I'm looking forward to the season. I always do. I will go to 1 weekend series in every month except September. However' date=' I have to be honest about what I think of the roster so far. The FO really hasn't done much positive and they have made a number of slip ups that have lots of people shaking their heads even very positive enthusiastic guys like Palodios.[/quote']

 

The Red Sox traded away my two favorite players, Lowrie and Scutaro, and then let Wheeler go to the Guardians. If they hadn't made those moves without a greater plan in mind, I will be severely disappointed.

 

That being said, Ben has done a lot of good things this offseason. If he gets a #4 starter, I think that he's done a brilliant job with the budget he had.

 

1) Signed Valentine. Whether he was reluctant or not, I think this will serve a good message to the players

 

2) Punto is a solid defensive-replacement type player. Good for clubhouse atmosphere and whatnot.

 

3) Arbitration for Papelbon/Ortiz/Wheeler and I know that's under debate, but two first round picks are always nice to have.

 

4) Trade for quality setup in Melancon. Liked this move.

 

5) Trade for an elite closer in Bailey. Health issues aside, this was a steal.

 

6) Signed Cody Ross. Loved this move, especially at that price.

 

7) After a year in 2011 when the organization had no depth for starting pitching, he has piled onto a group of guys to fight for the fifth spot. Most will turn out to be garbage, but when you have ten different guys who have the potential pitch in the majors, they will get lucky with atleast one.

 

If the Scutaro move turns into a pitcher, I'll regard it much more highly than I do now. Until then, it will be a poor choice.

[iortiz]

We need to see how this ends.... that is for sure Pal. But right now and going like this, I already rest my case.

[example1]

I think that we are missing the point here. Right now' date=' all we can do is to emit a forecast/opinion about the team and the league.[/b'] The same happened last year and the year before etc etc. The outcome can take a looot of different directions, and that (outcome vs plan), is another kind of discussion/debate.

 

No, there is another option. Witholding judgment. If you are truly going to do your evaluations based on results, you should say "I am going to withhold judgment until I see the results". Otherwise you aren't doing your evaluations based on results. You are doing them on the same criteria as everyone else, until there are results, and then you are changing your evaluation criteria in mid-stream...

[a700hitter]

If you were consistent you wouldn't play the forecasting game. You would withhold judgment until the end of the season.

 

You guys are acting as if it matters which particular mix of players the team has when, by your own logic, a teamful of Kelly schoppachs that wins 91 games is superior to a teamful of Dustin pedroias that wins 90. I'm smart enough to recognize that all this talk of "haven't done enough..." will be swept aside by the all powerful "resultsianism" at the end of the season. It's just a matter of time.

E1, you are basically trying to tear down a time honored tradition of baseball-- the HotStove league. It's discussion about the upcoming season, not the past season. People don't live in the past. They look forward to the future. If we don't discuss the upcoming season, what do you suggest we do. There's only so much time we can spend in the non-baseball thread. Yeszir, are you getting this? E1, wants TalkSox to go dark until the end of the 2012 season at which point we can only discuss 2012 briefly I suppose with no discussion of the upcoming 2013 season. You should not stand for this!

[iortiz]

No' date=' there is another option. Witholding judgment. If you are truly going to do your evaluations based on results, you should say "I am going to withhold judgment until I see the results". Otherwise you aren't doing your evaluations based on results. You are doing them on the same criteria as everyone else, until there are results, and then you are changing your evaluation criteria in mid-stream...[/quote']

 

Nope. I can emit my opinion/forecast right now and when the season ends and based on the result I will emit a judgement and/or opinion.

[example1]

E1' date=' you are basically trying to tear down a time honored tradition of baseball-- the HotStove league. It's discussion about the upcoming season, not the past season. People don't live in the past. They look forward to the future. If we don't discuss the upcoming season, what do you suggest we do. There's only so much time we can spend in the non-baseball thread. Yeszir, are you getting this? E1, wants TalkSox to go dark until the end of the 2012 season at which point we can only discuss 2012 briefly I suppose with no discussion of the upcoming 2013 season. You should not stand for this![/quote']

 

Nope. You're missing the key piece. I reserve the right to make evaluations about their current situation because I acknowledge that the best move now might not be the best move when the season ends. You reserve the right to use hindsight to call the best move now the worst move now later, even though nothing about now dictates it as the worst move.

 

For instance, signing Carl Crawford. You thought it was the best move they could have made. Now you call it a huge mistake. You want accountability etc., as if the FO should have been able to forecast his shittiness.

 

They could have signed Cliff Lee (best move at the time) and he could have blown out his shoulder (making it the worst move). I would say it was still the best move at the time, you would say "they should have known better".

 

In other words, your opinion about "best moves now" are just hot air because they will ultimately be flipped on their head if the "results" say otherwise.

[example1]

Nope. I can emit my opinion/forecast right now and after the season ends and based on the result emit a judgement and/or opinion.

 

You can. It just means some people might not take your opinions seriously because you want to have it both ways. A700 sees no problem with this. Plenty of other people do. It's inconsistent and, coming only a few months after "results are all that matters", "you don't understand the business world" etc., it rings both hollow and hypocritical.

 

If results are all that matters then wait for the damn results before casting judgment. Otherwise it is not true that results are all that matters. Results are all that matters, only when it is convenient to switch your measuring stick.

[a700hitter]

Every other year your explanation about the press is that the FO does everything it can to manipulate them. Now' date=' when the press is reporting things that make the FO look less than capable, the press is all we have to go by. It is consistent with your pessimism, but not consistent with your own logic.[/quote']This is not the least bit accurate. I still think that the press is being used as a tool. When reading the press reports, I try to figure out who is using them and why, but there is usually a grain of truth, at least, to any report. The fun is trying to figure out what is fact and what is BS and who benefits from it being in the press. Right now (and I think I posted it last night) it seems that everyone is using the press to ******** everyone else. In that case, it is difficult to figure out what is going on, and as i said last night, I am baffled. It's obvious that both the teams and the agents are feeding all sorts of contradictory info to the press.

 

I'm perfectly capable of pontificating about what I think the season will be like. I think that how they put together the team on paper actually matters and is driven by the logic about how to assess and build a baseball team. I'm not the one who was touting "results are all that matters" when the season ended.

At the end of the day, results are all that matters. Just because we were wrong about last years team doesn't make the FO right. The big difference is we can't lose our jobs if we are wrong about this stuff. I'll be the first to admit that i thought the Sox would steam roll into the post season in 2011. I was wrong. They were a very talented team, but the organization failed on many levels. I wasn't wrong when I took the position that the FO needed to do more than it did at the trading deadline. I was dead on right about that and the results bore out my prediction.

 

 

I'm not blaming the messenger. I'm just advocating for people to see how this plays out' date=' rather than littering the board with the same pessimistic nonsense based on the most recent post on mlbtraderumors.com. They either will get another decent SP or they won't. It's not that complicated.[/quote']It's a little insulting to characterize the analysis and opinions of others as "litter"... don't you think? I didn't accuse you of littering the board with what I view as terribly misplaced optimism regarding Silva, Cook and Padilla. Your thought was not garbage, even though i thin those pitchers are garbage.

[iortiz]

You can. It just means some people might not take your opinions seriously because you want to have it both ways. A700 sees no problem with this. Plenty of other people do. It's inconsistent and' date=' coming only a few months after "results are all that matters, rings both hollow and hypocritical. If results are all that matters then wait for the damn results before casting judgment. Otherwise it is not true that results are all that matters. Results are all that matters when it is convenient to switch your measuring stick.[/quote']

 

I think that you are confused about my position. Yes, results are all that matters. Right now, the only thing I can emit is an opinion from what I see in this team.

 

As I said, both topics (offseason/Season ended) are different kind of discussions/debates. When the season ends, I will balance the plan vs result and until then I will emit a judgement with more elements.

 

As I said, a team like Boston (180M, big market team) should be graded/ranked like this when a season ends, it is pretty simple actually:

 

Do not make POs... Failure.

Make the POs... Obligation

Win the DS... Good Season.

Win the ALCS ... Very Good Season

Win WS... Excellent (goal)

[SoxSport]

The way it looks now there are plenty of experienced MLB starters for the 5 spot' date=' between Cook, silva, Padilla, etc your concerns about rookies starting won't materialize unless Aceves does very well in ST.[/quote']

 

This year's usual suspects for the 4 and 5 pitching slots look a bit better than last year's.

[jung]

Frankly E1 that is ridiculous. It is a sports board. Everything posted here is opinion and everybody knows it. If somebody wants to post up their opinion about where this is going that is their business. It is not like anything posted here is going to actually have an impact on the result.

 

As for 700, my memory might be faulty on this, but I think people called him on the Crawford thing. He admitted that he liked the deal when it happened and admitted that it did not work out like he had hoped. Using something like his opinion on the Crawford deal to try to shout the guy down now is ******** E1. Its ********.

 

Give it a break for crying out loud. The worse thing a board can do is to try to censor spirited discussion and eliminate opinion.

[iortiz]

Frankly E1 that is ridiculous. It is a sports board. Everything posted here is opinion and everybody knows it. If somebody wants to post up their opinion about where this is going that is their business. It is not like anything posted here is going to actually have an impact on the result.

 

As for 700, my memory might be faulty on this, but I think people called him on the Crawford thing. He admitted that he liked the deal when it happened and admitted that it did not work out like he had hoped. Using something like his opinion on the Crawford deal to try to shout the guy down now is ******** E1. Its ********.

 

Give it a break for crying out loud. The worse thing a board can do is to try to censor spirited discussion and eliminate opinion.

 

This.

 

Some posters forget this jung. This is all about opinions/conjectures/forecasts etc, of course based in several facts, but in the end it is all about, opinions. I like the result-oriented approach in order to judge something. Right now, all I can emit is an opinion since the season has not even started.

[a700hitter]

Nope. You're missing the key piece. I reserve the right to make evaluations about their current situation because I acknowledge that the best move now might not be the best move when the season ends. You reserve the right to use hindsight to call the best move now the worst move now later' date=' even though nothing about [i']now[/i] dictates it as the worst move.

 

For instance, signing Carl Crawford. You thought it was the best move they could have made. Now you call it a huge mistake. You want accountability etc., as if the FO should have been able to forecast his shittiness.

 

They could have signed Cliff Lee (best move at the time) and he could have blown out his shoulder (making it the worst move). I would say it was still the best move at the time, you would say "they should have known better".

 

In other words, your opinion about "best moves now" are just hot air because they will ultimately be flipped on their head if the "results" say otherwise.

As I said in an earlier post, if I am wrong in liking a FO move and the move turns out bad, it is still a mistake. I did want them to sign Carl Crawford last year, but I would have preferred to get Holliday the year before. I think you liked Holliday too. Instead the Sox opted for Lackey. I do not think that Crawford was a huge mistake based on last year's performance. It was only one year. I have never said that it was a huge mistake, not yet. I reserve judgment as you would say. I don't throw the FO under the bus for putting a guy like Crawford on the team. If I criticize them for the move, it is because the spent themselves to the financial brink and left themselves with no flexibility for the future. They spent like drunken sailors and now they impose an austerity program. I am sorry but they have gone from one extreme to the other and that shows a lack of organizational discipline.

 

Finally, please once and for all, stop making this and every other disagreement about your perception that I am somehow unfair to the FO. Let's discuss the news of the day and the current state of the roster. Is it really relevant what you think I will say at the end of the season if things go wrong? I guess I should be flattered if you think that is important or relevant, but I don't think it is.

[a700hitter]

This year's usual suspects for the 4 and 5 pitching slots look a bit better than last year's.

Seborrhea and psoriasis would be better than what we had in the 4th and 5th slots last year.

[iortiz]

Nope. You're missing the key piece. I reserve the right to make evaluations about their current situation because I acknowledge that the best move now might not be the best move when the season ends. You reserve the right to use hindsight to call the best move now the worst move now later' date=' even though nothing about [i']now[/i] dictates it as the worst move.

 

For instance, signing Carl Crawford. You thought it was the best move they could have made. Now you call it a huge mistake. You want accountability etc., as if the FO should have been able to forecast his shittiness.

 

They could have signed Cliff Lee (best move at the time) and he could have blown out his shoulder (making it the worst move). I would say it was still the best move at the time, you would say "they should have known better".

 

In other words, your opinion about "best moves now" are just hot air because they will ultimately be flipped on their head if the "results" say otherwise.

 

As for 700, my memory might be faulty on this, but I think people called him on the Crawford thing. He admitted that he liked the deal when it happened and admitted that it did not work out like he had hoped. Using something like his opinion on the Crawford deal to try to shout the guy down now is ******** E1. Its ********.

[a700hitter]

This.

 

Some posters forget this jung. This is all about opinions/conjectures/forecasts etc, of course based in several facts, but in the end it is all about, opinions. I like the result-oriented approach in order to judge something. Right now, all I can emit is an opinion since the season has not even started.

I own up to everything I say. If I am wrong, it doesn't make the FO right. I was wrong about how the team would perform last year when the season started, but I was right in realizing that it had some very bad problems that needed fixing at the trading deadline. The FO didn't make those fixes and we lost. There is nothing remotely hypocritical or "having it both ways" about that. E1 often pulls this on me when he is upset about my opinion.

[iortiz]

I own up to everything I say. If I am wrong' date=' it doesn't make the FO right. I was wrong about how the team would perform last year when the season started, but I was right in realizing that it had some very bad problems that needed fixing at the trading deadline. The FO didn't make those fixes and we lost. There is nothing remotely hypocritical or "having it both ways" about that. E1 often pulls this on me when he is upset about my opinion.[/quote']

 

I like Adrian Gonzalez, everybody in this board knows that for obvious reasons, and I was very excited when they signed him. On the other hand if he fails (very, very unlikely) I'll be the first to point it out, you bet. In the end, they take the credit/blame money/costs. Yes, We are probably insignificant fans, but we are not stupid and they are not Isacc Newton/Galileo either, we can emit an opinion/judgement, can't we?

[a700hitter]

Here's the latest off the wires. I have no idea how i will feel about this in October.

 

SATURDAY, 2:14pm: The Rangers haven't made offer to Oswalt either, tweets Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. Texas is interested in the veteran, but like the Cardinals, he's not an obvious fit for the club.

 

1:39pm: The Cardinals insist that there's no deal in place with Oswalt, according to Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (via Twitter). General Manager John Mozeliak also denied that the club is near a deal with Oswalt, writes Matthew Leach of MLB.com.

 

One of the two sides will have to get creative for Roy Oswalt to land with the Cardinals, says Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. He says the team's motives are unclear as well, noting that St. Louis recently checked in on Edwin Jackson.

 

Make a decent offer and cut the guy a check

[example1]

Frankly E1 that is ridiculous. It is a sports board. Everything posted here is opinion and everybody knows it. If somebody wants to post up their opinion about where this is going that is their business. It is not like anything posted here is going to actually have an impact on the result.

 

As for 700, my memory might be faulty on this, but I think people called him on the Crawford thing. He admitted that he liked the deal when it happened and admitted that it did not work out like he had hoped. Using something like his opinion on the Crawford deal to try to shout the guy down now is ******** E1. Its ********.

 

Give it a break for crying out loud. The worse thing a board can do is to try to censor spirited discussion and eliminate opinion.

 

Ha. I find you reaction humorous.

 

I'm holding others to the standards they so haughtily held others to not more than a few months ago. If results are all that matters then results are all that matters. Apparently they are not all that matters. Apparently, how the team looks on paper matters too. As does what the media says.

 

I'm doing all of this tongue in cheek, as I'm sure a700 has picked up on, but I do think it is important that people realize when they make bold proclaimations like "results are all that matters" that will be the standard they are evaluated against moving forward. WHen people are ridiculed for saying the 2011 team was "good" and someone comes along with a "results" perspective and says they sucked, and imply that anything other than a results perspective is faulty, they will be called out when they use something other than a "results" perspective...

 

Even if it is in the "fun" of hot-stove discussion.

 

I will drop it because clearly it got under plenty of peoples skins and I strive to be easy to get along with...

[example1]

Here's the latest off the wires. I have no idea how i will feel about this in October.

 

There's the spirit!

[example1]

I own up to everything I say. If I am wrong' date=' it doesn't make the FO right. I was wrong about how the team would perform last year when the season started, but I was right in realizing that it had some very bad problems that needed fixing at the trading deadline. The FO didn't make those fixes and we lost. There is nothing remotely hypocritical or "having it both ways" about that. E1 often pulls this on me when he is upset about my opinion.[/quote']

 

What's your opinion that I'm supposedly upset about? I've actually found you to be rather tolerable this offseason.

 

I'm mostly responding to those who say that getting Oswalt makes the team fine, not getting him makes the offseason a failure, while reserving the right for both views to be readily washed away if there are enough wins at the end of the season. It's funny.

[a700hitter]

I'm holding others to the standards they so haughtily held others to not more than a few months ago.

^See this is where you went off the mark with your last post. The rest of the post didn't matter, because you went off the rails right here at the beginning. No one is holding anyone to any standards. None of us is any position to do so. We are just talking sports. What we will think of those moves in October is not relevant now, and what we think now will not matter or be relevant in October.

[example1]

I'm just glad I had something to contribute to the 7375 post thread today.

[iortiz]

E1, A700 and I should have/receive special treatment here from you since we are your main followers/fans in your thread. :harhar:

[a700hitter]

What's your opinion that I'm supposedly upset about? I've actually found you to be rather tolerable this offseason.

 

I'm mostly responding to those who say that getting Oswalt makes the team fine, not getting him makes the offseason a failure, while reserving the right for both views to be readily washed away if there are enough wins at the end of the season. It's funny.

Going into the offseason, we had one major need-- starting pitching. We had two huge holes at the end of the rotation. They moved Bard into the rotation and replaced him with Melancon. Eh. I am not crazy about that swap on the bullpen side, but fine if Bard can be a solid starter. That takes care of one empty rotation slot. They let Paps walk and replaced him with Bailey. Okay if bailey is healthy. I'm good up to this point. Here's where it starts getting dicey. They salary dump Scutaro (without a fulltime SS replacement inhouse) ostensibly according to press reports to free up money to get a pitcher. We get Cody Ross. I liked this more than you. We needed a RH OFer and he has had good splits against lefties. He also has good pop. But we still don't have the #1 goal-- the starting pitcher. If we don't get one, I don't know how the off season can be viewed as a success when we didn't take care of the primary need. Up to this point we have just shuffled some pieces around and replaced guys that left, but the biggest need has not been filled. i don't think that is an unfair assessment.

[a700hitter]

More contradictory conflicting reports from the wire:

Connolly also writes that he is unsure if the Orioles were one of the teams to make a three-year offer to Edwin Jackson, but says that it would make sense if they were. The club may be hesitant to go to four years for the hurler but hasn't completely dismissed the idea.

[iortiz]

Going into the offseason' date=' we had one major need-- starting pitching. We had two huge holes at the end of the rotation. They moved Bard into the rotation and replaced him with Melancon. Eh. I am not crazy about that swap on the bullpen side, but fine if Bard can be a solid starter. That takes care of one empty rotation slot. They let Paps walk and replaced him with Bailey. Okay if bailey is healthy. I'm good up to this point. Here's where it starts getting dicey. They salary dump Scutaro (without a fulltime SS replacement inhouse) ostensibly according to press reports to free up money to get a pitcher. We get Cody Ross. I liked this more than you. We needed a RH OFer and he has had good splits against lefties. He also has good pop. But we still don't have the #1 goal-- the starting pitcher. If we don't get one, I don't know how the off season can be viewed as a success when we didn't take care of the primary need. Up to this point we have just shuffled some pieces around and replaced guys that left, but the biggest need has not been filled. i don't think that is an unfair assessment.[/quote']

 

Fair enough.

 

On the other hand, some still saying, be more patience. Yup, it is not over yet. They are totally right, but we are just pointing out the signs and how things are going on, that's all, no big deal to me.