2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

John Maine in his best days was not very good. The last that I saw of him he was throwing around 84 MPH and insisting that he felt healthy for the Mets. The guy fits in with the rest of the "cesspool of negative (as coined by VA) that is our pitching depth.

 

I wonder what VA or even User thinks about the signing of John "Battleship" Maine. I'll bet they're not too impressed either.

[a700hitter]

The timing of the Scutaro salary dump just makes no sense at all.

[seabeachfred]

Another huge deal by the Red Sox. Boy are they going after top notch players this off-season. <_>

 

NB---Today John Maine, tomorrow maybe John Wayne. It's been that kind of off season, sad to say.:rolleyes:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[jung]

I initially thought that the media comments that V did not want Scuts around were just more media stirring the pot. But when pressed by EEI the other day, the best BC could do was to say that "the Sox saw an opportunity to redistribute those dollars as assets more effectively than using them on Scuts and that prompted the move.

 

In other words, he really side stepped the issue of Scuts for a pitcher in my view and instead opted to claim that while not having a specific player that they wanted to get with that money, the Scuts move still represented an opportunity to use those assets more effectively "eventually". Well that just sounds like so much mumble speak to me. It does make me wonder if V went to his in house Ace in the Hole, LL and offered that he really did not want Scuts for some reason.

[seabeachfred]

I just hope during spring training Bobby Valentine gets the lineups together. Last year in the beginning of the season we had no idea what to do with the lineup. Don't come into the season unprepared.

 

Red305---take heart, Valentine is not FrancoMa. He has both a pulse and a brain while residing in the dugout. The lineup will be ready. Take that to the bank.

[example1]

Are you saying that they will get another starter although it may not be Oswalt or Jackson or are you saying that it doesn't matter whether they get another starting pitcher?

 

It might matter, but it isn't the difference between whether Cherington has done a really good job or a really poor job. All these stupid nicknames and prejudgments are just hot air. The team is almost completed. They may or may not be adding a marginally decent pitcher. If they do, they should be more than ready to face their competition. If they don't, they are pretty ready to face their competition. The difference isn't that big.

[example1]

If Oswalt goes to the Cards' date=' Benny Boy has a real uphill battle getting a good starter. Jackson apparently wants a multi-year deal. Floyd is just so-so.[/quote']

 

I mean, seriously, how good is Oswalt?

 

You have retained the right to complain when the moves you advocate don't work out, but Oswalt isn't necessairly healthy, we're talking about him coming to a very tough hitters' league, and he doesnt necessairly want to pitch in Boston. If he came and gave up a 5 ERA you would be the first one harping on Ben, saying he should have thought it out. Perhaps that's what he is doing.

[seabeachfred]

Well let me beat my pal 700 Hitter to the punch today and announce that once again we didn't get that No. 4 pitcher. We got John Wayne....errrr John Maine, a 84mph fireball whose best record was 6-5 for the miserable Mets.

 

I do hold hold this hope. IF IF IF IF IF Beckett, Lester and Buchholz can stay healthy and pitch to their capabilities we still have a chance because we do have a fall back guy for the No. 4 spot----Alfredo Aceves. Say what you will, the guy knows how to win. He's a competitor and loves playing for the Red Sox and has something to prove to the Yankees, his old team that both dissed and ditched him. I don't like Bard as a starter because of his perceived lack of stamina since he had been only a one inning pitcher but maybe he will surprise. I'll tell you this: If Ken Williams is asking for a king's ransom for Floyd the Red Sox to tell him to shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

 

See you all tomorrow!!!

[a700hitter]

It might matter' date=' but it isn't the difference between whether Cherington has done a really good job or a really poor job. All these stupid nicknames and prejudgments are just hot air. The team is almost completed. They may or may not be adding a marginally decent pitcher. If they do, they should be more than ready to face their competition. If they don't, they are pretty ready to face their competition. The difference isn't that big.[/quote']I think you are getting discouraged about getting a starter so you are going into a defensive mode.

 

Oswalt is not a marginally decent pitcher. He's pretty darn good. Take him out of the mix and there is a big step down in quality. However, we still need an established starter-- someone that can take the ball 30 times and pitch with some consistency for around 180 innings.

 

I think going into the season with 2 converted relievers in the rotation is recipe for a bad season. It's like putting 2 rookies in the rotation, maybe worse, because at least the rookies would have starting experience in the minors. Bard and Aceves have no base of experience as starters. In 2008, when the Yanks went with rookies Hughes and Kennedy in their rotation things went very badly. If the Bard and/or Aceves flops, we don't have any depth to step in for them. Not getting an established starter before the beginning of the season would be devastating to our chance in my opinion.

[jung]

Buckets of prospects for Floyd make as little sense as putting as much emphasis on this SP signing as we have here in this board. As I stated before while I don't necessarily agree with this comment I have seen more than one article lately suggesting that the Sox are really looking to fill the number 5 hole. Now that seems to me to bequeath the 4 hole to either Aceves or Bard and I have problems with that. However, I do think that the Sox are way less exercised over this next SP than we are and are not willing to give up the family jewels for guys like Oswalt or Jackson or Floyd.

 

Even with the hole in the middle of the lineup that Ortiz would have left, I think this would have been a better team without Ortiz and with a legitimate big time, major league pitcher in the 4 hole. I think they could have gotten enough offense out of the DH spot rotating good bats into that spot and would have been a better overall team,,,,why,,,,because their pitching would have been better and they had a team at one point that could have rotated guys into the infield and into the DH spot.

 

The Sox went another way with the Ortiz arbitration and while they may not have been willing to admit it to us, we on this board in many cases immediately saw that move as a move that would impact their ability to significantly upgrade the pitching and I have to say that in my opinion, that is what we have gotten.

[example1]

I think you are getting discouraged about getting a starter so you are going into a defensive mode.

 

Oswalt is not a marginally decent pitcher. He's pretty darn good. Take him out of the mix and there is a big step down in quality. However, we still need an established starter-- someone that can take the ball 30 times and pitch with some consistency for around 180 innings.

 

I think going into the season with 2 converted relievers in the rotation is recipe for a bad season. It's like putting 2 rookies in the rotation, maybe worse, because at least the rookies would have starting experience in the minors. Bard and Aceves have no base of experience as starters. In 2008, when the Yanks went with rookies Hughes and Kennedy in their rotation things went very badly. If the Bard and/or Aceves flops, we don't have any depth to step in for them. Not getting an established starter before the beginning of the season would be devastating to our chance in my opinion.

 

I'm not discouraged. I thought this team was pretty damn good before and I think they are damn good now. I think Bard has the potential to be a very good pitcher in the rotation.

 

People are down on the potential for Buchholz to come back due to "back problems" but Oswalt has... "back problems" and he's viewed as Oswalt circa 2006. I still hope they get him, I just understand not breaking the bank or acting as if the entire season rests on signing Oswalt. I don't think it does.

[a700hitter]

I mean, seriously, how good is Oswalt?

 

You have retained the right to complain when the moves you advocate don't work out, but Oswalt isn't necessairly healthy, we're talking about him coming to a very tough hitters' league, and he doesnt necessairly want to pitch in Boston. If he came and gave up a 5 ERA you would be the first one harping on Ben, saying he should have thought it out. Perhaps that's what he is doing.

Oswalt is real good when healthy and he'd eat up 200 quality innings. More importantly, it would allow Aceves go back to the pen and play a very valuable role. He can also be a good depth option in case Bard blows up. They could switch Bard and Aceves if Bard can't cut it as starter.

 

With regard to the bolded language above, I can't really understand the relevance of that comment in the context of this or any other discussion about the team, so I don't know if you are looking for me to respond to it or not.

[a700hitter]

I'm not discouraged. I thought this team was pretty damn good before and I think they are damn good now. I think Bard has the potential to be a very good pitcher in the rotation.

 

People are down on the potential for Buchholz to come back due to "back problems" but Oswalt has... "back problems" and he's viewed as Oswalt circa 2006. I still hope they get him, I just understand not breaking the bank or acting as if the entire season rests on signing Oswalt. I don't think it does.

Putting Bard in the rotation doesn't worry me. Putting Bard and Aceves in the rotation does worry me, because we don't have any depth if one or both of those moves go wrong.

[SCM33]

What a disaster this offseason has been.

[a700hitter]

And if we are not going to get a starting pitcher, what the heck was the Scutaro salary dump all about? The starting pitcher move should have been locked up before we gave away Scutaro. On NESN, they are saying that neither Aviles or Punto are full time shortstops-- they were knocking their range.

 

They like Aviles bat, but apparently the OF experiment with Aviles in winter ball was not encouraging, hence the Cody Ross acquisition. They don't think he plays any position very well, but I think he's a could option off the bench.

[SCM33]

And if we are not going to get a starting pitcher, what the heck was the Scutaro salary dump all about? The starting pitcher move should have been locked up before we gave away Scutaro. On NESN, they are saying that neither Aviles or Punto are full time shortstops-- they were knocking their range.

 

They like Aviles bat, but apparently the OF experiment with Aviles in winter ball was not encouraging, hence the Cody Ross acquisition. They don't think he plays any position very well, but I think he's a could option off the bench.

 

Thats what I dont understand.

 

Usually, you acquire the player you want....THEN you do what you have to do to make him fit on the roster. They are saving 6+ million dollars by dumping him, then only offer Oswalt 5 million?

 

We have HUGE question marks in the rotation, some question marks in the bullpen and no SS. What the hell are we doing here with less than a month before spring training?

 

Everyone is pumped about the Cody Ross acquisition. Really? Since when do we get excited around here about a 4th of 5th outfielder who is at best, a platoon type player??? Cody Ross is Gabe Kapler, and all of a sudden everyone is pumped that we have solved our OF issues.....

[Bellhorn04]

The timing of the Scutaro salary dump just makes no sense at all.

 

Maybe we just jumped to the conclusion that the starter signing was close. Maybe what happened was they decided they were going to move Scutaro to free some budget room for a pitcher, and Colorado was the only team who was interested in Scutaro. They couldn't really tell Colorado to wait around till they got the pitcher signed.

 

Maybe they have a budget set of 185 million or something like that.

 

Just guessing obviously but I think there were reasons for why they made the Scutaro trade when they did.

[a700hitter]

Maybe we just jumped to the conclusion that the starter signing was close. Maybe what happened was they decided they were going to move Scutaro to free some budget room for a pitcher, and Colorado was the only team who was interested in Scutaro. They couldn't really tell Colorado to wait around till they got the pitcher signed.

 

Maybe they have a budget set of 185 million or something like that.

 

Just guessing obviously but I think there were reasons for why they made the Scutaro trade when they did.

There were several press reports that they were being held back from getting a pitcher by payroll considerations. They had plenty of time to lock down the pitcher while they were shopping Scutaro. It's not like the Scutaro deal went down at the beginning of their process of looking for a pitcher.

[a700hitter]

Thats what I dont understand.

 

Usually, you acquire the player you want....THEN you do what you have to do to make him fit on the roster. They are saving 6+ million dollars by dumping him, then only offer Oswalt 5 million?

 

We have HUGE question marks in the rotation, some question marks in the bullpen and no SS. What the hell are we doing here with less than a month before spring training?

 

Everyone is pumped about the Cody Ross acquisition. Really? Since when do we get excited around here about a 4th of 5th outfielder who is at best, a platoon type player??? Cody Ross is Gabe Kapler, and all of a sudden everyone is pumped that we have solved our OF issues.....

Benny Boy may be in over his head. I have been waiting and hoping for some surprise deal or acquisition, but there are absolutely no signs of that.

[jung]

I admit, some of this stuff is getting hard to fathom. There could be some other reason unknown to us that will likely never be known to us that they dumped Scuts. They went out of their way to call signing Scuts a good situation for the Sox and then a few weeks later claim that they decided there was a better way to use the money. Like I said above maybe there is something to the rumors that V did not want him and went to LL to have Scuts offed. Who the hell knows at this point.

 

Hard to understand how we expect to compete this way.

[a700hitter]

I had taped the Red Sox Hot Stove Report earlier in the week. I don't know if SBF gets NESN, but if he does and he taped the show, I urge him to delete it. Cafardo, Abraham and Orsillo were saying that they thought Wakefield would be a mid-season option, sort of like the way Paul Byrd was used in his last few years. They think it is a very real possibility and mentioned that the Sox are keeping the lines of communication open. Goodness, I hope this doesn't happen. Oh yeah, and they were discussing the possibility of Varitek still playing. Good God!!

[a700hitter]

I admit, some of this stuff is getting hard to fathom. There could be some other reason unknown to us that will likely never be known to us that they dumped Scuts. They went out of their way to call signing Scuts a good situation for the Sox and then a few weeks later claim that they decided there was a better way to use the money. Like I said above maybe there is something to the rumors that V did not want him and went to LL to have Scuts offed. Who the hell knows at this point.

 

Hard to understand how we expect to compete this way.

Two relievers becoming starters. No starting depth. No starting SS. It is not adding up. Hopefully, the plan is still taking shape, because I don't think that anyone has a handle on this.

[SCM33]

And if we are not going to get a starting pitcher, what the heck was the Scutaro salary dump all about? The starting pitcher move should have been locked up before we gave away Scutaro. On NESN, they are saying that neither Aviles or Punto are full time shortstops-- they were knocking their range.

 

They like Aviles bat, but apparently the OF experiment with Aviles in winter ball was not encouraging, hence the Cody Ross acquisition. They don't think he plays any position very well, but I think he's a could option off the bench.

 

So, we are going to go with a platoon at SS?

 

You know what types of teams have platoons at SS? The KC Royals and the Pittsburgh Pirates. 185 million spent, but they decide that SS is a place to save a few bucks.....bad idea.

 

Talk about spending money in the wrong areas.

[jung]

Geez I think he said he was going to sleep earlier. Probably a good thing. I can see the mushroom cloud over his keyboard now.

[iortiz]

Thats what I dont understand.

 

Usually, you acquire the player you want....THEN you do what you have to do to make him fit on the roster. They are saving 6+ million dollars by dumping him, then only offer Oswalt 5 million?

 

We have HUGE question marks in the rotation, some question marks in the bullpen and no SS. What the hell are we doing here with less than a month before spring training?

 

Everyone is pumped about the Cody Ross acquisition. Really? Since when do we get excited around here about a 4th of 5th outfielder who is at best, a platoon type player??? Cody Ross is Gabe Kapler, and all of a sudden everyone is pumped that we have solved our OF issues.....

 

Well SCM33, I have to admit that I was excited about Ross because I really sworn that we already had a pre-agreement with a SP (beyond the name). Apparently I was wrong. Yes SCM33, If we go like this, I'm with you; this offseason would have been a disaster.

[iortiz]

As several have said repeatedly' date=' I think the point is you don't trade a starting shortstop to get a starting pitcher and then not get the starting pitcher. That just isn't a smart thing to do.[/quote']

 

+100

 

If true, This will be unacceptable.

[a700hitter]

So, we are going to go with a platoon at SS?

 

You know what types of teams have platoons at SS? The KC Royals and the Pittsburgh Pirates. 185 million spent, but they decide that SS is a place to save a few bucks.....bad idea.

 

Talk about spending money in the wrong areas.

They were saying on the show that they think the Sox are going to give Iglesias every opportunity to win the job. This is 100% opposite of what i read earlier in the week where some source doubted that iglesias would win the job in 2012. I don't think anyone knows what to make about what is going on. It's baffling. We don't know. The writers and commentators and announcers also don't know.

[iortiz]

They were saying on the show that they think the Sox are going to give Iglesias every opportunity to win the job. This is 100% opposite of what i read earlier in the week where some source doubted that iglesias would win the job in 2012. I don't think anyone knows what to make about what is going on. It's baffling. We don't know. The writers and commentators and announcers also don't know.

 

Add oddmakers...

[Spudboy]

Any business which delibrately misleads its customers is doomed to failure in the long run. That is not the way to succeed in business or baseball.

 

This is not necessarily the case in all instances.

[RedSoxNC84]

I know no one wants to think it, but it may be true: The Scutaro deal may have been made just to pay for Ortiz's arbitration.

 

Or there's something we aren't being told...

 

The Red Sox would use any extra payroll space on a player later in the season, rather than spend it now in "a bidding war" for Roy Oswalt or Edwin Jackson, a source tells WEEI.com's Rob Bradford.

 

Perhaps we won't have a pitcher before spring camp.