2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[FredLynn]

All i'm saying is, let's wait and see what the final 25-man roster looks like. And as the team is currently constructed, it's good enough to stay alive until the TDL, where they can re-evaluate and acquire a pitcher and BP arm if they need it.

 

However, this is, as everything else on this board, an opinion. What i am saying is not a fact, but rather just an educated guess.

 

Just out of curiousity, if the current roster is the same as the final roster, what do you think of our chances of competing for a ring?

[User Name]

I think it would be very difficult, but possible.

 

The Red Sox' top three starters (if healthy) are good enough to compete against any other team's top three were they to advance to the playoffs.

[jung]

I can tell by the number of posts since the original Padilla post how excited people are about that possibility but any idea what he would likely get coming off of neck surgery. Neck surgery is by no means a definite slam dunk....you are back to pitching again. I am thinking he would be real cheap but I could be wrong.

 

Any ideas on money?

[FredLynn]

I think it would be very difficult, but possible.

 

The Red Sox' top three starters (if healthy) are good enough to compete against any other team's top three were they to advance to the playoffs.

 

Well then we have agreed all along. Surprise!

If the situation changes, if we get another good SP, then we have a better chance. But thats a new reality. Everyone knows what we need. Right now we don't have it. There is really no reason for anyone to be overly optimistic about the current team.

[User Name]

We can be:

 

A) Because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

B ) Because the roster is not yet completed, and even if they go into the season with what they have, there are several scenarios where they find the pitcher they're missing. Be it from one of the retreads they've signed, or through trade.

[FredLynn]

Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That said, opinions that are supported by facts are more believable than those which are not.

[Johnny]

Case in point.

 

Pike told me how all they have ever done since 2003 is predict that their team will be missing the playoffs right around this time of the year. They were cheering every loss in both 04 and 07 because this gives them a chance to go around telling people how they were right all along

[a700hitter]

Read pumpsie's posts. He pretty clearly ridicules anyone who is optimistic about the current roster' date=' and he attempts to portray his opinions as irrefutable. What he's getting from the other side has a lot to do with how he posts, IMO.[/quote']The attacks haven't been limited to Pumpsie.

[User Name]

Yes' date=' everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That said, opinions that are supported by facts are more believable than those which are not.[/quote']

 

Depends on your definition of "facts". Facts and opinions are not the same thing. Hence our recurring arguments.

[a700hitter]

Planned better how? They had what looked like better depth going into last year than they do going into this one. Unfortunately' date=' everything went wrong for them with every pitcher other than Lester/Beckett. [b']Yes, they could have upgraded with someone better than Bedard, but at what cost? [/b]Clearly, it was an acquisition cost they were unwilling to pay, which is a value issue. And, without knowing the actual players in question, I can't criticize their valuations here.

 

Sometimes a decent plan falls through because of bad circumstances. That's life, that happens.....in baseball, that's what injuries do.

At what cost? They had a deal done for Harden in return for Lars A (who has absolutely no future with the Red Sox and almost no trade value). The Sox pulled the plug. Stupid move, especially in light of the fact that they knew Bedard had a knee injury and a history of being brittle. Giving up Lars A was essentially no cost. It would not have compromised the future or gutted our farm. Harden would have been a nice insurance policy, and if he had won 1 or 2 games, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Theo didn't make the move. His bad, and that is why injuries were not an excuse for 2011. iortiz is 100% right. Injuries come with the territory. It's not a platitude. The top of the food chain (the owners) didn't say "aw shucks that's too bad. We had some bad breaks." They fired everyone's ass. Everyone's. There is your proof that it was not an excuse.

 

Injuries are a loser's lament. People remember who won and who lost. No one cares that Jim Rice was injured for the 1975 post season. The Reds of the 1970's will always be remembered as the Big Red Machine and 2 time champions.

 

You are right that sometimes a team can't plan to deal with injuries, but last season was not one of those seasons. They could have made moves that would have been costly like Fister (great move by the Tigers) or a cheap move like Harden. They had another zero cost move available--Millwood. They let him go and he did pretty decent for Colorado. They did neither the cheap moves or the expensive moves. That's why the injuries are not an excuse for 2011. They had options. You have no argument. None.

[seabeachfred]

At what cost? They had a deal done for Harden in return for Lars A (who has absolutely no future with the Red Sox and almost no trade value). The Sox pulled the plug. Stupid move, especially in light of the fact that they knew Bedard had a knee injury and a history of being brittle. Giving up Lars A was essentially no cost. It would not have compromised the future or gutted our farm. Harden would have been a nice insurance policy, and if he had won 1 or 2 games, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Theo didn't make the move. His bad, and that is why injuries were not an excuse for 2011. iortiz is 100% right. Injuries come with the territory. It's not a platitude. The top of the food chain (the owners) didn't say "aw shucks that's too bad. We had some bad breaks." They fired everyone's ass. Everyone's. There is your proof that it was not an excuse.

 

Injuries are a loser's lament. People remember who won and who lost. No one cares that Jim Rice was injured for the 1975 post season. The Reds of the 1970's will always be remembered as the Big Red Machine and 2 time champions.

 

You are right that sometimes a team can't plan to deal with injuries, but last season was not one of those seasons. They could have made moves that would have been costly like Fister (great move by the Tigers) or a cheap move like Harden. They had another zero cost move available--Millwood. They let him go and he did pretty decent for Colorado. They did neither the cheap moves or the expensive moves. That's why the injuries are not an excuse for 2011. They had options. You have no argument. None.

 

700---If you remember Epstein said about a week before the trading deadline that he kind of liked our team the way it was and said he envisioned no real moves by the TD. It was then that I started wondering where his mind was----we needed a couple of decent pitchers at the least. Now we know that we was looking for the gate that would take him out of Boston. His total abandonment of Francona the last two months made him AWOL from the everyday running of the Red Sox and now we know why. His performance for the last few years were miserable but more importantly t he last two months last season were almost criminal. You mentioned three pitchers who would have been a whole hell of a lot better than Bedard, Weiland and Wastefield, but these were the guys we trooped out there along with Lackey. What astounds me is that the front office seems totally blase about our collapse last season and is doing little in the way of showing us they really want to win this year. Maybe my pal Pumpsie is right---maybe they've already thrown in the towel for 2012 The rotten bastards.

[a700hitter]

700---If you remember Epstein said about a week before the trading deadline that he kind of liked our team the way it was and said he envisioned no real moves by the TD. It was then that I started wondering where his mind was----we needed a couple of decent pitchers at the least. Now we know that we was looking for the gate that would take him out of Boston. His total abandonment of Francona the last two months made him AWOL from the everyday running of the Red Sox and now we know why. His performance for the last few years were miserable but more importantly t he last two months last season were almost criminal. You mentioned three pitchers who would have been a whole hell of a lot better than Bedard' date=' Weiland and Wastefield, but these were the guys we trooped out there along with Lackey. What astounds me is that the front office seems totally blase about our collapse last season and is doing little in the way of showing us they really want to win this year. Maybe my pal Pumpsie is right---maybe they've already thrown in the towel for 2012 The rotten bastards.[/quote']I always thought that the stories about Theo ing to the Cubs that showe up in August were A) not just a rumor (they were proved to be true, that they were deliberately planted by someone in the Sox organization. I stated my opinion at the time, and of course my instincts were panned here. I didn't know if LL had planted the story to ease the shock of showing Theo the door if things ended badly, or to let the Cubs know that Theo might be available. Now, I think the more likely scenario is that Theo planted the story as a way to show his interest and throw his hat into the ring. Stories like that don't get that much traction if they are just empty rumor.

 

If these guys are throwing in the towel for 2012, I think that is a ridiculously stupid business move on their part. They will be risking further damage to the reputation of excellence that they worked so hard to build. Additionally, they will be flushing $170 million payroll down the toilet in 2012.

 

BTW: I am curious who will be coming off the Red Sox payroll after 2012 and 2013?

[User Name]

So much conjecture. Jesus Christ, it's like a congress meeting.

[a700hitter]

The bad news for Saturday was that Benny Boy still hasn't gotten the team a starting pitcher. He is busy trying to limit the damage he caused by offering Ortiz arbitration. What evr time he has left over he is using to lock down a pscho journeyman Padilla.

 

On the bright side, Bobby V has gone on record saying that neither Wakefield or Varitek has any chance of making the team if they come to Spring training. Thank you Bobby V for being the bad guy and shutting the door on these over the hill has beens. Apparently Benny Boy doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to break the news to them.

[User Name]

More conjecture! Great!

[jung]

for the record it was the A's that rejected Hardin straight up for Lars A not the Sox. The original deal for Harden was Lars A + for Harden. The Sox took a harder look at Harden's record of injury which is substantial and decided that he was just to injury prone to be an answer. However they were willing to do the deal if the A's were willing to do the deal straight up Lars A for Harden. Maybe that was not a deal that the A's could tolerate.

 

I actually think the Sox just did not want to haul another pitcher in here and have him cave physically. They had enough broken bodies around.The guy had been injured in both years leading up to 2011. He had taken inordinate amounts of time to heal and would likely have been pounded silly in the AL East.

 

In addition he is pretty much on a road to TJ if he stays in baseball. We already had dice in TJ and I would be willing to bet that Theo already suspected that Lackey was headed there. So given the amount of injury the Sox were already dealing with in the staff I can see why they would be reluctant to bring Harden in here. I think they might have taken the risk if they felt like he could pitch successfully in the AL East. However the combination of lack of confidence in his ability to pitch in the AL East combined with his oft broken body and steady progress to a very likely TJ in the very near future were the things that I think nixed that deal. Still and all the Sox would have done it for Lars A straight up.

[User Name]

Great post.

[a700hitter]

Tim Wakefield, Jason Varitek unlikely to return to Red Sox

PUBLISHED 8 hours and 44 minutes ago

LAST UPDATED 7 hours and 32 minutes ago

Staff report Sporting News

 

The Boston Red Sox have shaken up their front office and their 25-man roster this offseason, and the two longest tenured players in the organization appear to have played their final games with the team.

 

Knuckleballer Tim Wakefield and catcher Jason Varitek, the team’s captain, aren’t expected to return.

Catcher Jason Varitek, the team’s captain, is not expected to return. (AP Photo)

 

“I couldn’t imagine having Wake come in and compete for a job,” new manager Bobby Valentine told the Boston Herald. “I can’t imagine it. Or even Tek for that matter. It’s not something I can imagine.”

 

Wakefield, 45, has been with the Red Sox since 1995. However, he has posted losing records and ERAs over 5.00 the past two seasons. He is the franchise’s all-time leader in innings pitched (3,006), he ranks second to Roger Clemens in strikeouts (2,046) and he is third in wins (186) behind Clemens and Cy Young.

 

The 39-year-old Varitek has spent his entire 15-season major league career with Boston. In 2011, he served as the backup to catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia and hit .221 with 11 homers and 36 RBIs in 68 games.

 

The newspaper notes that Varitek likely would be offered a position within the organization if he chose to retire this spring.

 

DH David Ortiz and third baseman Kevin Youkilis are the only members of the Red Sox’s 2004 World Series championship team still on the active roster.

Thank goodness that this chapter is finally closed... about 2 years too late.

[a700hitter]

for the record it was the A's that rejected Hardin straight up for Lars A not the Sox. The original deal for Harden was Lars A + for Harden. The Sox took a harder look at Harden's record of injury which is substantial and decided that he was just to injury prone to be an answer. However they were willing to do the deal if the A's were willing to do the deal straight up Lars A for Harden. Maybe that was not a deal that the A's could tolerate.

 

I actually think the Sox just did not want to haul another pitcher in here and have him cave physically. They had enough broken bodies around.The guy had been injured in both years leading up to 2011. He had taken inordinate amounts of time to heal and would likely have been pounded silly in the AL East.

 

In addition he is pretty much on a road to TJ if he stays in baseball. We already had dice in TJ and I would be willing to bet that Theo already suspected that Lackey was headed there. So given the amount of injury the Sox were already dealing with in the staff I can see why they would be reluctant to bring Harden in here. I think they might have taken the risk if they felt like he could pitch successfully in the AL East. However the combination of lack of confidence in his ability to pitch in the AL East combined with his oft broken body and steady progress to a very likely TJ in the very near future were the things that I think nixed that deal. Still and all the Sox would have done it for Lars A straight up.

I think the + was a PTBNL-- again not a big cost. Let's face it, Lars was a zero cost as he has zero future with this Sox and almost no trade value. They had to offer something, hence the PTBNL. It was not going to be a top tier prospect. The whole thing backfired on Theo. If you remember, he was desperately trying to pry away Bruce Chen from KC in the final week and Capuano on the last weekend. I still don't know why the Mets declined. They let Capuano walk. I guess they have bigger dummies in their FO.

[User Name]

Aaaand instead of backpedaling, some delicious rationalization!

[jung]

If in fact it is true that the Sox would give Tek a job if he retires this spring, Tek should in fact retire and get it over with. Maybe, V's stated position will convince Tek not to show up for that ST invitation....hang out a little and see if somebody does come calling(very doubtful), retire and take whatever this job is that the Sox are talking about.

 

I think the killer for Tek and continuing anywhere in baseball is not his hitting...it is his inability to throw anybody out. He simply cannot any longer and even a team that insists its pitchers hold runners closer will not help Tek. He is just done.

 

In fact I think this board is pretty convinced that V would insist that pitchers hold runners closer and V still does not want him around.

[a700hitter]

It's starting to occur to me that the FO (including Benny Boy) wants Bobby V to play the bad cop. The statements we have heard and the ones today about Tek and Wakefield are probably more a result of a bigger strategy rather than Bobby V just being a loose cannon. I guess this type of strategy can work, but it is not ideal for player-manager relations. If it is going to work, he will have to have the complete unequivocal support of the FO. I don't know if he can put a lot of faith in that. LL is a duplicitous SOB.

 

Edit: I didn't like reading the quote below from Valentine today, because it is probably true. One thing Benny boy hasn't done this season is mislead anyone. He has done what he has said he would do. Bobby V is in the know, and this is probably Benny boys plan.

 

"I think we have a good team," he said. "If we could continue to add to it as the season progresses when we see what the needs are and when we see what the strengths and weaknesses are, I think that will be fine."

[jung]

It is kinda' screwed up to have the FO invite Tek even though it is a no strings attached, no commitment invitation and then have the Manager basically say "Please don't come".

 

I do think there is a consistent drumbeat of upper management using guys like BC and whoever the manager is almost like pawns on a chess board. I would be OK with it if there was some end and if the means did not carry a penalty. But the ends are often pretty petty and often there is a penalty.

 

I mean Gosh I think we have been thinking that they offered Tek the invite as a means of parting gracefully. Well who the hell are they afraid of offending? I don't think there is anybody that actually knows anything about baseball that thinks Tek can compete successfully in this league any longer. So do the Sox think the fan base is so stocked with thunder-headed clueless fanboys that they are going to offend if they don't give Tek an invite? God they seem just so engaged in over-thinking these things that are just not worth their time. Worse than that, they seem to over-think them to the wrong conclusion!

 

So they had BC a pawn on their chessboard in the manager hunt and ended up kinda' embarrassing him and making something of a half hearted effort to rehabilitate his image. Now they have V a pawn on their chessboard playing bad cop to their good cop as if V needed any help in that regard. They have nothing better to do over there?

[iortiz]

Let me try this iortiz.

 

It sounds like you are saying that the Sox 2010 experience should have prepared them for 2011 and with 2010 as a backdrop they should have made the necessary changes so that they could have more effectively mitigated what happened to the rotation in 2011.

 

So if i have that right, can you tell me what it is that you think happened in 2010 that was the equivalent of what happened in 2011? Now to be honest I would argue that one off season is not much time but be that as it may I am struggling with what you saw in 2010 that you thought should have signaled to management that they had to situate themselves to be able to more effectively mitigate what happened to the rotation in 2011? If you answered this earlier please just cut and paste it over here. No need to type it again. I looked but there are so many posts I might have missed it.

 

I don't remember anything as devastating happening in 2010. So that is one question.

 

I am going to use the numerical system I used in my other post to ask this other question. Presuming your argument is that they should have had the pieces in place to mitigate what happened where would you have stashed what would in effect be #2 and #3 capable SP so that they would be ready to come in? I can only suspect that you would have wanted some number of those starts made by 6's and 7's and turned them into starts by more 2's and 3's or maybe even a cadre of 4's would have been enough in your estimation. Whatever, where would you have put them in preparation?

 

Jung, let's say that we go like this. If we do not make the POs again because of injuries in our top 3, will you excuse the FO again? (Sorry, IDK if you excused them for the 2010 and 2011 failures. )

 

All I'm saying is that since injuries are a very important part of the game, you need to plan them in the short/mid/long future. If you fail because of this over and over and over again, there's a clear sign that they are not doing something well. It's pretty simple, actually. What the hell were those things that they didn't do well? Well, as I said, you can analyse the problem from a lot of angles and period of times. Seems to me that their mid and mostly their long future planning wasn't working out well in this regard (avoid injuries). The goddamn 2010 learninig thing which is part of their short future planining process didn't work it out either. Again, 2010 and 2011 failures will be an antecedent in order to try to avoid this issue in 2012. Will they avoid these issues next season? Today and being honest, the signs tell me.... no. The history has showed us and mostly in our recent teams that injuries are always present in pitching staffs.

 

They think that crappy pitchers can give us that desired depth. They will likely sign Ortiz for +-15 M. Instead, They could have used all that money in signing Kuroda and Wheeler and put a better balanced team and try to absorb this issue. Yes, The offseason ain't over. We'll see how it ends.

 

I'm not sure if I made myself clear. I hope I did. If no, sorry but IDK How to explain it better

[iortiz]

Speaking of ******** iortiz get a load of this. In 2010 Epstein said that was going to be a bridge year to 2011 when all should turn out blue skies and green lights. Well the bunch of us have already gone through those bridge years in 2006 and 2010 and I for one are up to my eyeballs in that crap. We've had four y ears of nothing in a row and another one is just too tough and hateful to contemplate. Prune Face Henry is a billionaire; he has he means to put out the money to upgrade the team and if he isn't he should pack up and get the hell out. His sole motivation should be to win. If it is just profits and money in the till he ought to go into gold' date=' municipal bonds, oil or the drug trade. What a putz our front office is turning out to be.[/quote']

 

I like the way you tell the stories Fred, please do not change your way.

 

Agree. This will be tough to contemplate if we fail in four years in a row. As I said, maybe Pumpsie's prophesy is in effect.

[iortiz]

At what cost? They had a deal done for Harden in return for Lars A (who has absolutely no future with the Red Sox and almost no trade value). The Sox pulled the plug. Stupid move, especially in light of the fact that they knew Bedard had a knee injury and a history of being brittle. Giving up Lars A was essentially no cost. It would not have compromised the future or gutted our farm. Harden would have been a nice insurance policy, and if he had won 1 or 2 games, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Theo didn't make the move. His bad, and that is why injuries were not an excuse for 2011. iortiz is 100% right. Injuries come with the territory. It's not a platitude. The top of the food chain (the owners) didn't say "aw shucks that's too bad. We had some bad breaks." They fired everyone's ass. Everyone's. There is your proof that it was not an excuse.

 

Injuries are a loser's lament. People remember who won and who lost. No one cares that Jim Rice was injured for the 1975 post season. The Reds of the 1970's will always be remembered as the Big Red Machine and 2 time champions.

 

You are right that sometimes a team can't plan to deal with injuries, but last season was not one of those seasons. They could have made moves that would have been costly like Fister (great move by the Tigers) or a cheap move like Harden. They had another zero cost move available--Millwood. They let him go and he did pretty decent for Colorado. They did neither the cheap moves or the expensive moves. That's why the injuries are not an excuse for 2011. They had options. You have no argument. None.

 

Lack of raw material is a constant threat and challenge in chemical companies (ask you daughter ) . Demand Planning in Wholesalers. Forecasting and Replenishment in Retailers. Product development in Life and Science companies. Transportation Planing and Optimization in Logistics. Demand generation(leads)/new clients in almost any industry. etc, etc, etc.

 

The Injury thing is a threat and a big challange in Baseball. You have to deal with them. Can you consider them in your business/sportive plan? Can you reduce the risk? Can you absorb their impact? Yes.

 

None GM beyond the industry make excuses about their threats and challenges but the opposite. They are hired to deliver results and deal with these threats and challenges. They are often paid very well to address these issues. They take accountability if something goes wrong. Top Managers do not have room to make excuses. Theo already took accountability of all these issues. He and his crew walked. Some around here still excuse him. I really do not know why.

 

I do not want to sound like a smart ass but unfourtunatly that is the real life and it can be applied to ANY kind of business. Trust me.

[User Name]

Have you ever run a baseball team? No? That's what i thought. No excuses!

[iortiz]

Have you ever run a baseball team? No? That's what i thought. No excuses!

 

When you say this, is because you do run a baseball team, right? Or what is your point? or you are just trying to cover your pointless comment with another sarcastic post?

 

If yes, I'm not interested in play that game.

[RedSoxNC84]

Bartolo Colon Agrees To Sign With Unknown Team

By Mike Axisa [January 14 at 11:11pm CST]

Bartolo Colon has agreed to a deal with an unknown club reports Bob Nightengale of USA Today (on Twitter). The right-hander wouldn't divulge the team because he has not yet passed his physical.

 

Both the Diamondbacks and Athletics have shown interest in Colon recently, and the Yankees indicated a willingness to re-sign him earlier this winter. The Mitch Frankel client resurrected his career with New York in 2011, pitching to a 4.00 ERA with 7.4 K/9 and 2.2 BB/9 in 164 1/3 innings after signing a minor league contract. Colon, who didn't pitch in MLB in 2010, has been treated with stem cells from his bone marrow and fat to repair tears in his elbow and rotator cuff. He was regularly hitting 94-96 with his fastball last year before fading down the stretch.

 

Maybe the mystery team is the Sox?

[iortiz]

Maybe the mystery team is the Sox?

 

I could bet that he goes to Oakland.