2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[ORS]

Give homie a break' date=' English is probably his second language. I'm sure if we all had an SAP feature Iortiz would make more sense. [/quote']

No, I have no problem making sense of what he's saying. I have issue with him running from the consequences of what he suggests. The synopsis is pretty clear....

 

He says injuries are part of the game, no excuses.

He says their ability to recover from injuries in 2011 should have been better because of what they should have learned from 2010.

If there are no excuses, that means they needed added depth.

You cannot add depth to the farm in one offseason.

Therefore, you must add depth by spending money.

I said adding more and more depth based on random injury occurence is unrealistic.

 

He didn't think his thought all the way through to the consequence of his suggestion. Now he's trying to distance himself from what he said. No excuses!

[example1]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Me neither.

 

This board is suddenly filled with Donald Trumps and every post is a cliche filled elimination-round board room scene.

[iortiz]

No, I have no problem making sense of what he's saying. I have issue with him running from the consequences of what he suggests. The synopsis is pretty clear....

 

He says injuries are part of the game, no excuses. YES

He says their ability to recover from injuries in 2011 should have been better because of what they should have learned from 2010. In part, Yes. Aren't you agree? what's your point here?

 

All below is your discussion, no mine.

 

If there are no excuses, that means they needed added depth.

You cannot add depth to the farm in one offseason.

Therefore, you must add depth by spending money.

I said adding more and more depth based on random injury occurence is unrealistic.

 

He didn't think his thought all the way through to the consequence of his suggestion. Now he's trying to distance himself from what he said.

Not at all ORS, Not at all. Your recap is not accurate.

[ORS]

Not at all ORS' date=' Not at all. Your recap is not accurate.[/quote']

Those are the consequences of your suggestion. They are. No running from them. No excuses!

[iortiz]

Those are the consequences of your suggestion. They are. No running from them. No excuses!

 

No excuses, those are the concequences you wanted to achieve, no mine. No excuses!.

[ORS]

No excuses' date=' those are the concequences you wanted to achieve, no mine. No excuses.[/quote']

It has nothing to do with what I want. There is action and consequence. You stated the action. I listed the consequence.

 

Plain and simple, you didn't think it through. You didn't consider the consequences. Failure. You're fired. No excuses.

[iortiz]

It has nothing to do with what I want. There is action and consequence. You stated the action. I listed the consequence.

 

Plain and simple, you didn't think it through. You didn't consider the consequences. Failure. You're fired. No excuses.

 

Your "consequences" are not accurate. I already rest my case. Read it.

 

Yes, unfoutunatly Boston failed, a lot of of people was fired. Seems like JH didn't accept excuses.

[ORS]

Your consequences are not accurate. I already rest my case. Read it.

 

Yes, unfoutunatly, Boston failed, a lot of of people was fired. Seems like JH didn't accept excuses.

They're accurate. You know they are, because you aren't arguing them.

[example1]

I feel like one of you is posting with loads of sarcasm and irony and the other continues to play with all seriousness.

[User Name]

Indeed.

[example1]

Indeed.

 

No excuses User Name.

[User Name]

No excuses User Name.

 

Am i fired?

[iortiz]

They're accurate. You know they are' date=' because you aren't arguing them.[/quote']

 

Nope, they are not. I already argued, but you called mi points "poorly"? I could do the same but I prefer respect your opinion. Then you called me, dense?.

 

We can begin again if you want.

 

Injuries are part of the game. No excuses. Do you want to excuse them? or what is your point?

[ORS]

Nope, they are not. I already argued, but you called them "poorly"? And then you called me, dense?.

 

We can begin again if you want.

 

Injuries are part of the game. No excuses. Do you want or excuse them?, what is your point?

If you don't know what my point is the last few minutes, then I have no desire to continue the discussion.

[jung]

Look it is not just the injuries to the starting pitching but the underperformance of some of the remaining components that really hurt the Sox last year.

 

They lost dice for the whole season right off the bat so a guy they were depending on gave them a few starts and was gone. Might have even been better off if dice had gone down before the season started. Then Buch goes down and not for an insignificant period. He goes down for the entire second half. So that is 2/5 of our rotation completely down.

 

So lets look at what is left. Can you say Lester even had a median average season for what was rightfully expected of him. No he had an abysmal season. So you loose your 3 and 4 and your 2 is pitching more like a 4. Lackey was a mess. I have always thought that they never should have brought Lackey here but they did. They had certain expectations for him. I would say that he pitched at about 30% of what they expected of him. So their 4 is pitching like a 6. I would say that Beckett had a very good year for him but in reality he pitched like a 2 to me, not like a 1. Everybody else is just somebody they are throwing into the breach so they are a bunch of 7's. So because of injury and poor performance, they had a rotation made up of a 2, a 4, a 6 and a bunch of 7's. Dice and then Buch's injury combined with Lester's drop off combined with Lackey pitching with a dead arm is what killed the rotation and eventually the pen. No team in baseball is surviving that sort of dynamic in their rotation. They just are not. I just don't really even know what to say.

 

I don't think it likely that any staff would have been prepared for the fall off Lester had, combined with losing dice and Buch combined with Lackey pitching with a dead arm. Really the only guy they had that performed to expectation was Beckett.

[iortiz]

If you don't know what my point is the last few minutes' date=' then I have no desire to continue the discussion.[/quote']

 

You have made a lot points. I have made a lot of points. Which one you want to debate?

[User Name]

Look it is not just the injuries to the starting pitching but the underperformance of some of the remaining components that really hurt the Sox last year.

 

They lost dice for the whole season right off the bat so a guy they were depending on gave them a few starts and was gone. Might have even been better off if dice had gone down before the season started. Then Buch goes down and not for an insignificant period. He goes down for the entire second half. So that is 2/5 of our rotation completely down.

 

So lets look at what is left. Can you say Lester even had a median average season for what was rightfully expected of him. No he had an abysmal season. So you loose your 3 and 4 and your 2 is pitching more like a 4. Lackey was a mess. I have always thought that they never should have brought Lackey here but they did. They had certain expectations for him. I would say that he pitched at about 30% of what they expected of him. So their 4 is pitching like a 6. I would say that Beckett had a very good year for him but in reality he pitched like a 2 to me, not like a 1. Everybody else is just somebody they are throwing into the breach so they are a bunch of 7's. So because of injury and poor performance, they had a rotation made up of a 2, a 4, a 6 and a bunch of 7's. Dice and then Buch's injury combined with Lester's drop off combined with Lackey pitching with a dead arm is what killed the rotation and eventually the pen. No team in baseball is surviving that sort of dynamic in their rotation. They just are not. I just don't really even know what to say.

 

I don't think it likely that any staff would have been prepared for the fall off Lester had, combined with losing dice and Buch combined with Lackey pitching with a dead arm. Really the only guy they had that performed to expectation was Beckett.

 

This is a really good analysis of the situation. I would say Lester pitched like a two, but that's neither here nor there.

 

The real point here is, no team can withstand the rash of injuries and ineffectiveness the Red Sox had last season. There's not enough depth in the world to come back from that unmitigated stream of ********.

[ORS]

You have made a lot points. I have made a lot of points. Which one you want to debate?

I have no desire to debate with you.

[example1]

Look it is not just the injuries to the starting pitching but the underperformance of some of the remaining components that really hurt the Sox last year.

 

They lost dice for the whole season right off the bat so a guy they were depending on gave them a few starts and was gone. Might have even been better off if dice had gone down before the season started. Then Buch goes down and not for an insignificant period. He goes down for the entire second half. So that is 2/5 of our rotation completely down.

 

So lets look at what is left. Can you say Lester even had a median average season for what was rightfully expected of him. No he had an abysmal season. So you loose your 3 and 4 and your 2 is pitching more like a 4. Lackey was a mess. I have always thought that they never should have brought Lackey here but they did. They had certain expectations for him. I would say that he pitched at about 30% of what they expected of him. So their 4 is pitching like a 6. I would say that Beckett had a very good year for him but in reality he pitched like a 2 to me, not like a 1. Everybody else is just somebody they are throwing into the breach so they are a bunch of 7's. So because of injury and poor performance, they had a rotation made up of a 2, a 4, a 6 and a bunch of 7's. Dice and then Buch's injury combined with Lester's drop off combined with Lackey pitching with a dead arm is what killed the rotation and eventually the pen. No team in baseball is surviving that sort of dynamic in their rotation. They just are not. I just don't really even know what to say.

 

I don't think it likely that any staff would have been prepared for the fall off Lester had, combined with losing dice and Buch combined with Lackey pitching with a dead arm. Really the only guy they had that performed to expectation was Beckett.

 

Great post. Except that I think Beckett pitched like a #1.

 

He piched very well against the best/most important teams he faced:

 

NYY: 5 GS, 1.85 ERA, 34 IP, 38K .941 WHIP

TBR: 3 GS, 0.78 ERA, 23 IP, 19K, .435 WHIP

TOR: 2 GS, 0.84 ERA, 10.2 IP, 15K, .844 WHIP

 

Against teams with a .500+ W%:

16 GS, 104.0 IP, 1.82 ERA, 93K, .856 WHIP

 

I would say those are ace numbers, particularly when the total numbers were:

193 IP, 2.89 ERA, 175 K, 1.026 WHIP

 

I think any team would be pretty happy to get that performance from their #1 pitcher.

[iortiz]

Depth is a way to counterbalance the injuries. Assertive FA signings is another way to do it. Farm developing is other. Physical conditioning is other. Having a decent medical staff is other. Making smart trades is other. And the the list of direct and indirect things could be endless.

 

All these factors weren't enough (bad planned) to counterbalance the injuries, reason why we failed. From some aspects you learn from 2010, then you plan your 2011 season and execute. No excuses.

[iortiz]

I have no desire to debate with you.

 

Ok.

[User Name]

They had eight legitimate starting pitching candidates, and again, you cannot control the farm system. Prospects will be ready when they're ready.

 

Again, your expectations are unrealistic. That is the point ORS was trying to make. Not everything is black and white.

 

Although baseball has a lot of similarities to business, it is not a business unto itself. You cannot treat assets in baseball like you treat business assets because they are human beings, and they are prone to error, injury and ineffectivenes. The Sox had all three of those last year, and there's only so much you can do to safeguard against those.

 

The Red Sox did almost everything they could.

[FredLynn]

I've known Pumpsie for years on these boards and also met him in person' date=' took in a game with him and broke bread with him and a friend. I'll tell you this...he knows what the hell he's talking about. Digest this: He was one of a very small and I mean small hand few of people who accurately predicted the collapse of the Red Sox last September. Did you? Did anyone else on this board save Muggah and one other guy predict that? Take 95% of what he says to the bank.[/quote']

 

Fred, you might as well argue with the wall. He has his mind (what there is of it) made up. I just manually ignore most of what he says. Its a waste of my time to think about his nonsense.

[iortiz]

They had eight legitimate starting pitching candidates, and again, you cannot control the farm system. Prospects will be ready when they're ready.

 

Again, your expectations are unrealistic. That is the point ORS was trying to make. Not everything is black and white.

 

Although baseball has a lot of similarities to business, it is not a business unto itself. You cannot treat assets in baseball like you treat business assets because they are human beings, and they are prone to error, injury and ineffectivenes. The Sox had all three of those last year, and there's only so much you can do to safeguard against those.

 

The Red Sox did almost everything they could.

 

Sorry, We are in different channels and I do not agree with you in some passages of your post. I won't try to convince you, though.

[User Name]

Fred' date=' you might as well argue with the wall. He has his mind (what there is of it) made up. I just manually ignore most of what he says. Its a waste of my time to think about his nonsense.[/quote']

 

Case in point.

[FredLynn]

For the record, I think the team is now headed in the right direction. They have fired an incompetent manager who lost control of the clubhouse and replaced him with a disciplinarian who will fix that problem. They got rid of the GM who put them in the hole they are now in, and they have so far held on to the resources that will probably make them a very real contender next year.

Does that sound pessimistic to everyone here-or does it sound like a difference of opinion about long term strategy for success of the team?

[jung]

Let me try this iortiz.

 

It sounds like you are saying that the Sox 2010 experience should have prepared them for 2011 and with 2010 as a backdrop they should have made the necessary changes so that they could have more effectively mitigated what happened to the rotation in 2011.

 

So if i have that right, can you tell me what it is that you think happened in 2010 that was the equivalent of what happened in 2011? Now to be honest I would argue that one off season is not much time but be that as it may I am struggling with what you saw in 2010 that you thought should have signaled to management that they had to situate themselves to be able to more effectively mitigate what happened to the rotation in 2011? If you answered this earlier please just cut and paste it over here. No need to type it again. I looked but there are so many posts I might have missed it.

 

I don't remember anything as devastating happening in 2010. So that is one question.

 

I am going to use the numerical system I used in my other post to ask this other question. Presuming your argument is that they should have had the pieces in place to mitigate what happened where would you have stashed what would in effect be #2 and #3 capable SP so that they would be ready to come in? I can only suspect that you would have wanted some number of those starts made by 6's and 7's and turned them into starts by more 2's and 3's or maybe even a cadre of 4's would have been enough in your estimation. Whatever, where would you have put them in preparation?

[seabeachfred]

If I were JH I definitely would be very concerned to put other X million dollars at FA, we can't blame him for that, mostly when he wasn't agree with the Crwaford deal and haven't worked it out thus far (worse, seems like he is adopting diva attitudes, IDK).

 

On the other hand his top management, LL, Ben, etc shall present the whole scenario. They shall present a solid strategy (including the injury thing) in order to move forward. If the strategy is win now or win in 2013 or win in 2014, fine. I'm convinced that this team wanted to win all last year. They didn't planned the injury thing correctly again, regardless 2010 was another injury season. You had an antecedent. You learn. They unfourtunatly didn't.

Some want to excuse the FO. JH gave them a 170 MUSD payroll to win. They didn't even make the POs. Are injuries the reason? Sorry my friends but that is ********. You take accountably, you plan better (whatever it means in their business) and execute. Again, no excuses.

 

Speaking of ******** iortiz get a load of this. In 2010 Epstein said that was going to be a bridge year to 2011 when all should turn out blue skies and green lights. Well the bunch of us have already gone through those bridge years in 2006 and 2010 and I for one are up to my eyeballs in that crap. We've had four y ears of nothing in a row and another one is just too tough and hateful to contemplate. Prune Face Henry is a billionaire; he has he means to put out the money to upgrade the team and if he isn't he should pack up and get the hell out. His sole motivation should be to win. If it is just profits and money in the till he ought to go into gold, municipal bonds, oil or the drug trade. What a putz our front office is turning out to be.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, this pretty much means nothing. He is consistently negative, so throw enough s*** at the wall and.....

 

Opinions are opinions, lest they be proven correct. An opinion is not a fact.

 

MVP predicted the collapse at Talkpats waaaaay back and you don't see him rubbing that into people's faces or stating his opinion as fact.

 

User, there are times I can get pretty negative myself as you and others probably know, but in my bones I want to be upbeat and optimistic, the way I always was when I coached baseball many years ago. It is just that what we're seeing now doesn't give too much hope for the immediate future. I remember very well two bridge years already, 2006 and 2010---one led to a WS Title, the other led to a disaster. I just don't think we should pack it in and start calling off this year without giving a good account of ourselves. That means Henry must put winning and the fans first and do all he can to get us up to speed and if that means going over the LT to get a solid starter and another good reliever, so be it. He is supposed to be in this business for two reasons and two reasons only and that is to make money and to win. He'll make his money; he's a good businessman. It's his commitment to winning that I am having some doubts about right now.

 

No, I won't jump off a 12 story building or anything like that but the thought of us coming up empty for a fifth year in a row is very hard to take.

[User Name]

All i'm saying is, let's wait and see what the final 25-man roster looks like. And as the team is currently constructed, it's good enough to stay alive until the TDL, where they can re-evaluate and acquire a pitcher and BP arm if they need it.

 

However, this is, as everything else on this board, an opinion. What i am saying is not a fact, but rather just an educated guess.