2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

Those that are saying both the Mariners and Yanks filled holes are correct. It does not matter what the Yanks gave up they got value for value and they traded young for young. They needed pitching now and they got it.

 

One of the biggest things Montero has going for him is that he is a catcher and that is a big plus for him over a Kalish even if Kalish were healthy. That still does not change that fact that this was a good move for both teams. The point is, Kalish would not have drawn back from the Mariners what Montero did.

 

Lavarnway would not have drawn back from the Mariners what Montero did either.

 

In one day the Yankees outstripped the entire Sox offseason mainly because the Sox have made only one good move....Bailey surrounded by a bunch of meaningless ******** and outright blunders.

 

As for musing that there was nothing wrong with giving Tek an invite to spring training....how does that bit of frivolity look in light of the rest of the days events? Are we happy that they wasted even a minute thinking about that ********?

 

Frankly I have thought for a long time now that you don't clean up the mess this team was in at the end of 2011 in one offseason so I can deal with not fielding a fully competitive team next year. But this has gotten kinda' ridiculous. They are blundering away the offseason and fiddling with ******** like inviting Tek to spring training while the Yanks fill the holes they have. We are going backwards folks. Everything is relative and when you compare the 2011 Red Sox with what they had to compete with last year and what this team is shaping up to be this year with what they will have to compete with, they are going backwards. In fact they are going backwards so fast that I no longer know if this mess gets turned around by 2013, never mind 2012.

 

I don't expect the Sox to compete dollar for dollar with the Yanks. However I also do not expect them to act frivolously in the face of sustained competitive efforts and to make outright blunders in the face of sustained competitive efforts. They can afford neither if the intent is to win sometime in the near future. Sure the joint will still be full of pink hats and corporate fannies stuffed into the company season seats but winning will be a different story. Sweet Carline has become a metaphor for the entire miserable mess as far as I am concerned. Stop the ******** and bring back "Take me out to the f***in' ballgame". Sweet Caroline...what a bunch of ********.

 

BRAVO JUNG!!!!!!!! One of the best posts I've read in over a month. Way to go!!!!!! The fact is that Nitwit Neil isn't even a Red Sox fan so why play that piece of s*** song? It adds nothing to the game and is an invitation for the pink hats and rumpsawbs who will swallow anything the front office tells them to enjoy themselves even if the Sox go down in flames. Here we are inviting Jason the Useless Stiff Putritek back for another season of ineptness while we labor for some decent pitching additions that would at least give us a ghost of a chance to compete for something this season. Are we just going to concede what the Yankees did without a counter move of our own. Screw you Lucchino and Cherington; you both a f***in' disgrace to the Red Sox.

[Elktonnick]

All this was based on Lackey was injured in June, to the point that he needed TJ surgery. Said that, and if true and if they knew that Lackey was injured (as Gammon suggested) and let him play (what ended happening), no excuses, they should consider another SP. Bedard was not enough, regardless everybody knew that he was prone to injuries. Hell, you already have injuries concerns and you brought another prone to injuries? Sorry, but It doesn't make sense to me. But beyond that (which was illogical to me -Bedard move-), they should bring another SP. As I said, I do not have clear the options/business environment of that June 2011. You could argue that out there were any. We will never know with certainty. I clearly remember that Pence could be an option for us before the 2011 trade deadline (surly we didn't have the pieces, IDK), but some around here went to my throat and told me "Pence will never ever be traded by Los Astros". He was traded to Philly. My point is, out there are always possibilities, is it going to be easy (like bring another SP), nobody said that, but GMs have to figure it out. It is part of his job.

 

If you want to excuse the FO, it's up to you. Injuries are part of the game and you have to deal with them and consider them in your business/sportive plan (better physical conditioning/, depth, assertive FA signings, farm development, etc.) No excuses.

 

The only logical explanation for the Sox behavior (I don't buy the Lux Tax nonsense) is that JH et al now recognize how much of a hole Epstein put them with Crawford, Lackey et al and they are afraid to make any major moves until they figure out a long term strategy. For the time doing nothing is their plan. I am sad to say.

[jung]

Padilla will cost somebody next to nothing coming off neck surgery. Not sure if that report is true but it would certainly be interesting if they are focused on Padilla.

 

I don't buy the argument that they might be waiting for Oswalt to drop to $7M from $8M. I still think they would have signed him by now if they were going to.

[iortiz]

The only logical explanation for the Sox behavior (I don't buy the Lux Tax nonsense) is that JH et al now recognize how much of a hole Epstein put them with Crawford' date=' Lackey et al and they are afraid to make any major moves until they figure out a long term strategy. For the time doing nothing is their plan. I am sad to say.[/quote']

 

If I were JH I definitely would be very concerned to put other X million dollars at FA, we can't blame him for that, mostly when he wasn't agree with the Crwaford deal and haven't worked it out thus far (worse, seems like he is adopting diva attitudes, IDK).

 

On the other hand his top management, LL, Ben, etc shall present the whole scenario. They shall present a solid strategy (including the injury thing) in order to move forward. If the strategy is win now or win in 2013 or win in 2014, fine. I'm convinced that this team wanted to win all last year. They didn't planned the injury thing correctly again, regardless 2010 was another injury season. You had an antecedent. You learn. They unfourtunatly didn't.

Some want to excuse the FO. JH gave them a 170 MUSD payroll to win. They didn't even make the POs. Are injuries the reason? Sorry my friends but that is ********. You take accountably, you plan better (whatever it means in their business) and execute. Again, no excuses.

[seabeachfred]

Ortiz was a play that failed. The Sox thought that someone would grab him and the Sox would end up with the draft picks having offered him arbitration. Now they are stuck with him.

 

It was a gamble that failed. My point all along is that they had to be out of their minds to have thought somebody was going to pick Ortiz up out of arbitration thus giving up picks to the Sox. When the chance of reward is 0 the risk is infinite and that was the problem with that gamble. It was never going to pay off.

 

It was a stupid decision and many of us here knew if we offered arbitration to Ortiz he would snap it up. Why didn't Cherington? Because he is a dumb s***, no matter how much cover some of you want to give him and put all the blame on Lucchino and Prune Face. Now Benny the Boob, you give Ortiz A ONE f***IN' YEAR CONTRACT AND NO OPTION AND GET LAVARNWAY'S ASS IN THE LINEUP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. If Ortiz gets off to a rotten start this season this is going to end very ugly. Mark my words.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[seabeachfred]

That's not the point at all. The point is (and you've been told this several times by several different people) that you like to present your opinion as irrefutable fact.

 

I've known Pumpsie for years on these boards and also met him in person, took in a game with him and broke bread with him and a friend. I'll tell you this...he knows what the hell he's talking about. Digest this: He was one of a very small and I mean small hand few of people who accurately predicted the collapse of the Red Sox last September. Did you? Did anyone else on this board save Muggah and one other guy predict that? Take 95% of what he says to the bank.

[ORS]

If I were JH I definitely would be very concerned to put other X million dollars at FA, we can't blame him for that, mostly when he wasn't agree with the Crwaford deal and haven't worked it out thus far (worse, seems like he is adopting diva attitudes, IDK).

 

On the other hand his top management, LL, Ben, etc shall present the whole scenario. They shall present a solid strategy (including the injury thing) in order to move forward. If the strategy is win now or win in 2013 or win in 2014, fine. I'm convinced that this team wanted to win all last year. They didn't planned the injury thing correctly, regardless 2010 was another injury season. You had an antecedent. You learn. They unfourtunatly didn't.

Some want to excuse the FO. JH gave them a 170 MUSD payroll to win. They didn't even make the POs. Are injuries the reason? Sorry my friends but that is ********. You take accountably, you plan better (whatever it means in their business) and execute. Again, no excuses.

I'm sorry, but this is foolishness. If they adjust their plan based on unfortunate results from one year, then they quickly end up in a situation where the plan calls for an abundance of talent in order to protect them "at all costs". That's just not reasonable. You can't expect them to use that many resources "just in case" they are beset upon by another rash of injuries. That extinguishes a lot of their resource budget.

 

Look at all the speculation we've had about how much they will spend this year, when it's clear they are not as deep as they were in previous years. You are suggesting they need to not only add to their current depth to get to where they were in the past, but also they need to stockpile more talent, at more resource cost, because they experienced difficulties with injuries in the recent past. Where does it end? Your suggestion would snowball into an unmanageable situation.

 

No, the only reasonable thing is you plan for a normal distribution of injuries. If/when you get more than the normal, you make value decisions based on your expectations for the remainder of that season. This is what they've done, and it's perfectly reasonable. Expecting more is a fantasy.

[User Name]

I've known Pumpsie for years on these boards and also met him in person' date=' took in a game with him and broke bread with him and a friend. I'll tell you this...he knows what the hell he's talking about. Digest this: He was one of a very small and I mean small hand few of people who accurately predicted the collapse of the Red Sox last September. Did you? Did anyone else on this board save Muggah and one other guy predict that? Take 95% of what he says to the bank.[/quote']

 

Fred, this pretty much means nothing. He is consistently negative, so throw enough s*** at the wall and.....

 

Opinions are opinions, lest they be proven correct. An opinion is not a fact.

 

MVP predicted the collapse at Talkpats waaaaay back and you don't see him rubbing that into people's faces or stating his opinion as fact.

[iortiz]

I'm sorry' date=' but this is foolishness. If they adjust their plan based on unfortunate results from one year, then they quickly end up in a situation where the plan calls for an abundance of talent in order to protect them "at all costs". That's just not reasonable. You can't expect them to use that many resources "just in case" they are beset upon by another rash of injuries. That extinguishes a lot of their resource budget. [/b']

 

Look at all the speculation we've had about how much they will spend this year, when it's clear they are not as deep as they were in previous years. You are suggesting they need to not only add to their current depth to get to where they were in the past, but also they need to stockpile more talent, at more resource cost, because they experienced difficulties with injuries in the recent past. Where does it end? Your suggestion would snowball into an unmanageable situation.

 

No, the only reasonable thing is you plan for a normal distribution of injuries. If/when you get more than the normal, you make value decisions based on your expectations for the remainder of that season. This is what they've done, and it's perfectly reasonable. Expecting more is a fantasy.

 

It could sound foolish, but it isn't. I never said that money is always the answer. It is part (mostly in big market teams), but ain't the entire answer. Planning goes beyond money. In order to counterbalance this regard you plan other aspects (Depth, farm, physical conditioning, assertive FA signings, etc.) Seems like all these aspects failed in 2011. Sorry, you can't excuse them. As Theo did, you take accountability, and move on (plan better and execute).

[User Name]

Your expectations are unrealistic iortiz. There's only so much depth you can accumulate against injuries, and the farm system isn't simply something you can manage to your liking in regards to MLB backup plans. Prospects are ready when they're ready, not when you want them to.

[ORS]

It could sound foolish' date=' but it isn't. I never said that money is always the answer. It is part (mostly in big market teams), but ain't the whole answer. Planning goes beyond money. In order to counterbalance this regard you plan other aspects (Depth, farm, physical conditioning, assertive FA signings, etc.) Seems like all these aspects failed in 2011. Sorry, you can't excuse them. As Theo did, you take accountability, and move on (plan better and execute).[/quote']

No, in the situation as discussed, aside from improving their conditioning efforts, money was the answer. By the time they got to the 2010 offseason, the farm was what it was. You can't just go out and hold your own interim draft to stock the farm system. The only other way to add depth for 2011, to end up with more than they had in 2010 where they were hit hard by injuries, is to spend more money in the free-agent market. This was the example you used....2010 was the season to learn from.

 

What you suggested required an unrealistic expenditure of their resources. Face it, this is the point you made, and it was a bad one.

 

I'm not excusing anything. I'm talking about cause/effect. The effect is that they missed the playoffs. Injuries were part of the cause. They just were. With your "no excuses" line, you are trying to eliminate them from the discussion. You can't do that. Those injuries happened. They were part of the cause.

 

Yes, injuries do happen to all teams. However, they should get their due mention when a team experiences more of them than their competition does. They should not be ignored. You can't just throw them out with a cliche.

[jung]

I will grant you that the Sox could have done a better job of managing their prospects but that is a process issue more than a planning issue. The Sox had decided on a certain course of action and it had its consequences. I do think they have prospects down on the farm now that will eventually work their way up through the system and I do think the Sox will allow those prospects to work their way up to the big club. I am inclined to think they have learned their lesson in that regard. But it will take time for the next crop of good prospects to work their way up as they are young by and large. Heck some of them are young by prospect standards.

[User Name]

I will grant you that the Sox could have done a better job of managing their prospects but that is a process issue more than a planning issue. The Sox had decided on a certain course of action and it had its consequences. I do think they have prospects down on the farm now that will eventually work their way up through the system and I do think the Sox will allow those prospects to work their way up to the big club. I am inclined to think they have learned their lesson in that regard. But it will take time for the next crop of good prospects to work their way up as they are young by and large. Heck some of them are young by prospect standards.

 

Good observation.

[iortiz]

Your expectations are unrealistic iortiz. There's only so much depth you can accumulate against injuries' date=' and the farm system isn't simply something you can manage to your liking in regards to MLB backup plans. Prospects are ready when they're ready, not when you want them to.[/quote']

 

You are missing the issue UN?. Since injuries are a very important part of the game you must consider them in you sportive/business plan in order to counterbalance them.

 

Every business has threats and challenges. You do not make excuses. You plan and execute. If the outcome is a failure and if you are a GM and if you have failed in 3-year-in-a-row you shall expect to be fired. Look at what happened in the Boston Red Sox (a lot of people walked), plain and simple. This is how business usually run. No excuses. That is pretty much my point.

[iortiz]

No' date=' in the situation as discussed, aside from improving their conditioning efforts, [b']money was the answer[/b]. By the time they got to the 2010 offseason, the farm was what it was. You can't just go out and hold your own interim draft to stock the farm system. The only other way to add depth for 2011, to end up with more than they had in 2010 where they were hit hard by injuries, is to spend more money in the free-agent market. This was the example you used....2010 was the season to learn from.

 

What you suggested required an unrealistic expenditure of their resources. Face it, this is the point you made, and it was a bad one.

 

I'm not excusing anything. I'm talking about cause/effect. The effect is that they missed the playoffs. Injuries were part of the cause. They just were. With your "no excuses" line, you are trying to eliminate them from the discussion. You can't do that. Those injuries happened. They were part of the cause.

 

Yes, injuries do happen to all teams. However, they should get their due mention when a team experiences more of them than their competition does. They should not be ignored. You can't just throw them out with a cliche.

 

sorry ORS I do not want to disrespect you but that is your discussion, not mine. I think that you are missing the point.

[ORS]

You are missing the issue UN?. Since injuries are a very important part of the game you must consider them in you sportive/business plan in order to counterbalance them.

 

Every business has threats and challenges. You do not make excuses. You plan and execute. If the outcome is a failure and if you are a GM and if you have failed in 3-year-in-a-row you shall expect to be fired. Look at what happened in the Boston Red Sox (a lot of people walked), plain and simple. This is how business usually run. No excuses. That is pretty much my point.

Your philosophy is bordering on comical absolutism. Why wait 3 years? Failure is failure, right? In fact, isn't everything short of winning a championship a failure? They should have a new GM every year they don't win one. No excuses, right?

[ORS]

sorry ORS I do not want to disrespect you but that is your discussion' date=' not mine. I think that you are missing the point.[/quote']

No, in the way you brought it up, that was your discussion. If you stated your position poorly, that is your fault, not mine.

[User Name]

Your philosophy is bordering on comical absolutism. Why wait 3 years? Failure is failure' date=' right? In fact, isn't everything short of winning a championship a failure? They should have a new GM every year they don't win one. No excuses, right?[/quote']

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[ORS]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with that one this year. Valentine will get canned at least 25 times for making the wrong tactical decision in my book. No excuses. Cherrington, he's lucky he still has his job, even if it has been only 2 months. No excuses. Marmelard? Dead. Neidermeyer? Dead. NO EXCUSES!

[User Name]

I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with that one this year. Valentine will get canned at least 25 times for making the wrong tactical decision in my book. No excuses. Cherrington' date=' he's lucky he still has his job, even if it has been only 2 months. No excuses. Marmelard? Dead. Neidermeyer? Dead. NO EXCUSES![/quote']

 

It only applies when it helps justify the points from the agenda.

[iortiz]

Your philosophy is bordering on comical absolutism. Why wait 3 years? Failure is failure' date=' right? In fact, isn't everything [b']short of winning a championship a failure[/b]? They should have a new GM every year they don't win one. No excuses, right?

 

For a big market team it is frequently the objective. There is a strategy and a time involved in the process. Is it 1?, 2?, or 3 Ys? IDK but I guarantee you that if the KPI is at least make the POs every year and you do not make it you expect to walk at some point..

[ORS]

For a big market team it is frequently the objective. There is a strategy and a time involved in the process. Is it 1?' date=' 2?, or 3 Ys? IDK but I guarantee you that if the KPI is at least make the POs every year and you do not make it you expect to walk at some point..[/quote']

Sounds like some weakness mumbo-jumbo. No excuses!

[iortiz]

No' date=' in the way you brought it up, that was your discussion. If you stated your position poorly, that is your fault, not mine.[/quote']

 

No, you brought it. I'm still saying, injuries are part of the game, you consider them in your plan. No excuses. That is my point. You think other thing, it is up to you. This team didn't plan this issue correctly.

[iortiz]

Sounds like some weakness mumbo-jumbo. No excuses!

 

0 excuses. It's my point. Plain and simple ORS.

[User Name]

wut?

[ORS]

No' date=' you brought it. I'm still saying, injuries are part of the game, you consider them in your plan. No excuses. That is my point. You think other thing, it is up to you. This team didn't plan this issue correctly.[/quote']

Read the thread. You brought up modifying their plan because of what they should have learned from 2010. I showed you were your point lead to in the future. Quit trying to run away from what you said.

[iortiz]

Read the thread. You brought up modifying their plan because of what they should have learned from 2010. I showed you were your point lead to in the future. Quit trying to run away from what you said.

 

We are going in circles now. Ok, they learned very well from 2010.

[ORS]

We are going in circles now. Ok' date=' they learned very well from 2010.[/quote']

Are you really this dense?

[italstallianion]

Give homie a break, English is probably his second language. I'm sure if we all had an SAP feature Iortiz would make more sense.

[iortiz]

Are you really this dense?

 

Nope, I'm just making a point. You are the one who is making this... dense.

 

Hell, you do not excuse the FO, and I definitely don't excuse them for the 2011 failure. What is your point? Go in circles?