2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Spudboy]

My brain hurts.

[Muggah]

I agree with this with one condition. They need another starter so Aceves can go back to the bullpen. As things are currently, Bard and Aceves are rolls of the dice as starters. The back of our bullpen is Albers, Melancon and Bailey. Last year it was Aceves, Bard and Papelbon. I don't see this year's bullpen as close to comparable with the 2011 pen unless Aceves moves back to the pen.

 

As to the health issue, when was the last time that Beckett, Buchholz and Lester all stayed healthy throughout the season? Depth important, and SIlva et al are not depth.

 

I agree. If people are expecting Melancon and Bailey to step in and pitch as effectively as Bard and Papelbon they're setting themselves up for a huge letdown. There will be some growing pains with these two---quite possibly almost a whole year's worth.

[a700hitter]

who would you consider as depth?

Signing Saunders for the pen or if Aceves went back to the pen, thjat would give some good starting depth, not the dollar store rejects that we have been signing. Maybe one of those guys shows some promise during the spring, but it is more likely that they all are bags of s***. It's fine to take fliers on guys to with the hope of adding depth, but you have to have some depth that is reliable. We don't.

[a700hitter]

The Marlins are the manifestation of a rebuilding approach that has been going on for a few years now. They have the young core the Cubs hope to build over the next few years.

 

They also don't have a loyal fanbase or any hope for good income without making significant changes.

 

The Cubs and Marlins are at different places.

 

I wouldn't call what the Marlins have been doing to be rebuilding. For the last several years they have been a failing small market franchise with a small budget. They are getting a new stadium and they are making a big push to establish a foothold with a fan base. This is probably their last shot to make things work there.

 

 

The Cubs are in a very different spot. They are in a big market with a loyal fan base and a lot of money for payroll. There is no need to be rebuilding like a small market team with a small budget. That's my opinion.

[VA Sox Fan]

I tried to translate dumpster diving' date=' but I haven't found out the meaning [/quote']

 

a700 can explain it to you, he did "coin the phrase" in 2008;)

 

Dumpster diving is the practice of sifting through commercial or residential trash to find items that have been discarded by their owners, but that may be useful to the dumpster diver.

[VA Sox Fan]

what's this? a red sox fan with positive outlook on next year.

 

There are plenty of us out here!

[a700hitter]

I agree. If people are expecting Melancon and Bailey to step in and pitch as effectively as Bard and Papelbon they're setting themselves up for a huge letdown. There will be some growing pains with these two---quite possibly almost a whole year's worth.

ANd if Aceves ends up in the rotation, we need Albers, Melancon and Bailey to fill the void of Aceves, Bard and Papelbon. That's a tall order.

[a700hitter]

a700 can explain it to you, he did "coin the phrase" in 2008;)

 

Dumpster diving is the practice of sifting through commercial or residential trash to find items that have been discarded by their owners, but that may be useful to the dumpster diver.

I think you owe me a royalty.

 

That's a good definition of what dumpster diving is outside of baseball. I like to apply the term to injured, rehabbing, damaged or over the hill pitchers who have been discarded by their teams. They have been thrown in the trash heap or the dumpster. Our GM has apparently spent a lot of time sifting through the dumpster this off season.

[a700hitter]

You'd give your left ballock to have JJ on the Sox staff

I'd love to have him if he is healthy. He is going on 28 and I think he only pitched one full season where he didn't spend substantial time on the DL.

[VA Sox Fan]

I think you owe me a royalty. lol:

 

That's a good definition of what dumpster diving is outside of baseball. I like to apply the term to injured, rehabbing, damaged or over the hill pitchers who have been discarded by their teams. They have been thrown in the trash heap or the dumpster. Our GM has apparently spent a lot of time sifting through the dumpster this off season.

 

:

 

I do!

 

Thought the techical definition would help iortiz better, then he could understand it with regard to baseball.

[User Name]

It seems some members around here misunderstand the concept of "depth". If a starting pitcher is good enough to be part of a starting rotation, he will become part of a team's starting rotation, therefore not being a "depth" possibility.

 

Joe Saunders does not constitute pitching depth. Aaron Cook constitutes pitching depth,

[example1]

I wouldn't call what the Marlins have been doing to be rebuilding. For the last several years they have been a failing small market franchise with a small budget. They are getting a new stadium and they are making a big push to establish a foothold with a fan base. This is probably their last shot to make things work there.

 

 

The Cubs are in a very different spot. They are in a big market with a loyal fan base and a lot of money for payroll. There is no need to be rebuilding like a small market team with a small budget. That's my opinion.

 

Do you know what the Cubs payroll was last year? They don't have a small budget. They have a big budget with s*** results. The Marlins payroll was something like 57m last year. The Cubs were 134m in 2011 and 144 in 2010.

 

Historically you expressed great concern when Theo chose not to spend money that you felt they should spend. I'm not shocked that you are consistent when he goes to Chicago. I still think it's a bad approach.

 

They should get out from the really bad contracts and then increase spending with the right players.

[Elktonnick]

It seems some members around here misunderstand the concept of "depth". If a starting pitcher is good enough to be part of a starting rotation, he will become part of a team's starting rotation, therefore not being a "depth" possibility.

 

Joe Saunders does not constitute pitching depth. Aaron Cook constitutes pitching depth,

 

If Aaron Cook constitutes depth then we really are swimming in the shallow end of the pool!

[User Name]

If Aaron Cook constitutes depth then we really are swimming in the shallow end of the pool!

 

Unfortunately, as i stated earlier, good pitchers are pitching in starting rotations. Do you find some flaw with that logic?

 

"Pitching depth" is constituted by re-treads, guys not good enough to start on a consistent basis, and guys trying to come back from injury.

 

Again, a guy that's good enough to start on a consistent basis for a team (Joe Saunders) will sign a contract that allows him to start on a consistent basis for a team.

[User Name]

Do you know what the Cubs payroll was last year? They don't have a small budget. They have a big budget with s*** results. The Marlins payroll was something like 57m last year. The Cubs were 134m in 2011 and 144 in 2010.

 

Historically you expressed great concern when Theo chose not to spend money that you felt they should spend. I'm not shocked that you are consistent when he goes to Chicago. I still think it's a bad approach.

 

They should get out from the really bad contracts and then increase spending with the right players.

 

Why bother?

 

It's obvious that trying to compare the Cubs and Marlins situation is an exercise in futility, but you're not going to change his mind.

[redsoxfan3]

It seems some members around here misunderstand the concept of "depth". If a starting pitcher is good enough to be part of a starting rotation, he will become part of a team's starting rotation, therefore not being a "depth" possibility.

 

Joe Saunders does not constitute pitching depth. Aaron Cook constitutes pitching depth,

 

Depth can be viewed differently by different people. From my perspective, once we have 5 starting pitchers in the rotation, then the other players that are capable of being starting pitchers would be the depth. I agree with your scenario. If we sign Saunders, then that means we have five pitchers of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Saunders, and Bard. Therefore, Cook, Germano, Silva, Miller, et al would be considered depth to our rotation. I would not consider the acquisition of Saunders, Kuroda, Jackson, or Oswalt as adding depth. I would consider that as filling a needed spot in our rotation. Basically in short, we have the same perspective on pitching depth. The dumpster diving strategy of BC is to create competition in camp and to add depth to our rotation in hopes that one of these pitchers will be worth the gamble. I don't see any starting pitcher that we have signed this offseason as one that I want as a reliable starter in the rotation. Now if a starter goes down at some point this season, I would not mind if one of these pitchers fills in temporarily if one of them is doing a solid job in AAA, which is exactly where they help this team out in terms of depth. I am still hoping we sign someone that can actually fill in the need of one more reliable starter in our rotation. The other signings don't hurt us, but they do add depth just in case we need it. I don't think anyone wants to rely on Cook, Silva, or any of the pitchers we have signed as a reliable starter.

[User Name]

Depth can be viewed differently by different people. From my perspective' date=' once we have 5 starting pitchers in the rotation, then the other players that are capable of being starting pitchers would be the depth. I agree with your scenario. If we sign Saunders, then that means we have five pitchers of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Saunders, and Bard. Therefore, Cook, Germano, Silva, Miller, et al would be considered depth to our rotation. I would not consider the acquisition of Saunders, Kuroda, Jackson, or Oswalt as adding depth. I would consider that as filling a needed spot in our rotation. Basically in short, we have the same perspective on pitching depth. The dumpster diving strategy of BC is to create competition in camp and to add depth to our rotation in hopes that one of these pitchers will be worth the gamble. I don't see any starting pitcher that we have signed this offseason as one that I want as a reliable starter in the rotation. Now if a starter goes down at some point this season, I would not mind if one of these pitchers fills in temporarily if one of them is doing a solid job in AAA, which is exactly where they help this team out in terms of depth. I am still hoping we sign someone that can actually fill in the need of one more reliable starter in our rotation. The other signings don't hurt us, but they do add depth just in case we need it. I don't think anyone wants to rely on Cook, Silva, or any of the pitchers we have signed as a reliable starter.[/quote']

 

I should have made myself clearer. I am talking about depth as it pertains to free agent acquisitions, not young talent under team control. Under that scenario, "depth" only has one reliable definition.

[Elktonnick]

I should have made myself clearer. I am talking about depth as it pertains to free agent acquisitions' date=' not young talent under team control. Under that scenario, "depth" only has one reliable definition.[/quote']

 

When one normally speaks of depth one speaks in terms of someone who can replace a player in or at a given position with little drop off in productivity or talent. Ben is stockpiling bodies and calling that depth. There is a considerable drop off in talent. That why it is safe to say we are swimming in the shallow end of the pool when it comes to depth. Or, another way of putting it is; we are a mile wide but only an inch deep. The players that Ben is signing, generally speaking, suck!

[User Name]

When one normally speaks of depth one speaks in terms of someone who can replace a player in or at a given position with little drop off in productivity or talent. Ben is stockpiling bodies and calling that depth. There is a considerable drop off in talent. That why it is safe to say we are swimming in the shallow end of the pool when it comes to depth. Or' date=' another way of putting it is; we are a mile wide but only an inch deep. The players that Ben is signing, generally speaking, suck![/quote']

 

That's why they're signing minor league deals as pitching "depth" instead of being in this team's or another team's rotation. See the point?

 

If Aaron Cook had been healthy and effective last year, he'd be part of the Rockies' rotation and not a Red Sox on a minor league deal. By the way, your definition of depth is wishful thinking. Bench talent is never a "little drop off" when substituting talent, at least when it pertains to Major League ready depth. Minor League talent is not depth in and of itself. Depth is having someone who can handle the position, albeit probably with many more limitations than the starter.

[Elktonnick]

That's why they're signing minor league deals as pitching "depth" instead of being in this team's or another team's rotation. See the point?

 

If Aaron Cook had been healthy and effective last year, he'd be part of the Rockies' rotation and not a Red Sox on a minor league deal. By the way, your definition of depth is wishful thinking. Bench talent is never a "little drop off" when substituting talent, at least when it pertains to Major League ready depth. Minor League talent is not depth in and of itself. Depth is having someone who can handle the position, albeit probably with many more limitations than the starter.

 

Depth is depth. The fact is BC is signing detritus. It is wishful thinking that this collection of misfits has beens etc will help this team win, when and if the injury bug strikes. That's the bottom line.

[User Name]

Depth is depth. The fact is BC is signing detritus. It is wishful thinking that this collection of misfits has beens etc will help this team win' date=' when and if the injury bug strikes. That's the bottom line.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Those guys signed are "depth". For better or worse.

 

And who knows, maybe the Red Sox will luck out and get a decent performance from one of those "insert insult to MLB player from the comfort of my couch" here.

[Elktonnick]

Exactly. Those guys signed are "depth". For better or worse.

 

And who knows, maybe the Red Sox will luck out and get a decent performance from one of those "insert insult to MLB player from the comfort of my couch" here.

 

For worse IMHO

[User Name]

For worse IMHO

 

I am envious of your ability to predict the future.

[a700hitter]

Do you know what the Cubs payroll was last year? They don't have a small budget. They have a big budget with s*** results. The Marlins payroll was something like 57m last year. The Cubs were 134m in 2011 and 144 in 2010.

 

Historically you expressed great concern when Theo chose not to spend money that you felt they should spend. I'm not shocked that you are consistent when he goes to Chicago. I still think it's a bad approach.

 

They should get out from the really bad contracts and then increase spending with the right players.

Although consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, in general I think a big market team that charges high ticket prices owes it to their fans to spend money to put a good product on the field. Last season the Cubs were not just bad in the standings, but they were dreadfully boring to watch. This year that situation looks like it might get worse. I just don't think it is the right approach for the fans.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Why's it always the butthurt old timers who bitch up a storm whenever the Red Sox don't sign somebody? I mean, you think they would've learned from the countless other Red Sox teams that failed by making nothing but quick fix signings.

 

I can literally feel my brain cells committing suicide reading some of this ********.

[a700hitter]

Why's it always the butthurt old timers who bitch up a storm whenever the Red Sox don't sign somebody? I mean, you think they would've learned from the countless other Red Sox teams that failed by making nothing but quick fix signings.

 

I can literally feel my brain cells committing suicide reading some of this ********.

Reminds you of Accounting 101?

[User Name]

Although consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds' date=' in general I think a big market team that charges high ticket prices owes it to their fans to spend money to put a good product on the field. Last season the Cubs were not just bad in the standings, but they were dreadfully boring to watch. This year that situation looks like it might get worse. I just don't think it is the right approach for the fans.[/quote']

 

So the right choice for the fans is assembling an expensive, yet outright s***** product?

 

Excellent logic!

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

So the right choice for the fans is assembling an expensive, yet outright s***** product?

 

Excellent logic!

 

It's only s***** because we're not signing enough contract-year stiffs. The GM is slacking.

 

I mean duh.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Reminds you of Accounting 101?

This is literally the only thing you have on me.

[a700hitter]

This is literally the only thing you have on me.

That's why I only use it on rare occasions. I have to wit until there has been sufficient membership turnover.