2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

God' date=' he really is a waste of money. Gave us one good season then started to brake down.[/quote']

 

Unfourtunatly, our recent history is marked for horrible FA signings.

[iortiz]

I think a trade is the likely route especially if they are truly committed to Ortiz. As currently configured they have too much offense and too little pitching for me to take them seriously. I see posts here that make it sound like a monster offense goes directly into the crapper if we let go of even one piece of it. I would love to keep them all if we had pitching but we don't.

 

I've been saying this since before the 2011 trade deadline. This is January 2012, and still waiting the SP.

[jung]

I have said several times here that I think Youk will end up a key feature of a trade especially since they have passed on the need to protect him a bit from injury by turning the DH position into one that they can rotate players into. While it costs them a big RH bat that is one consequence of the Ortiz arbitration deal.

 

It will take more than Youk to get even a decent pitcher but going the trade route opens up the number of SP options available.

[jacksonianmarch]

Youk's value is overblown right now on this site. He's damaged goods until proven otherwise. If you want to get equal value for him, he needs to have a healthy season that is in line with his career norms.

[FredLynn]

I don't want to wait till 2013 or 2014. But your point is very realistic if they do not make another move. Hopefully BC Keeps an ace up his sleeve and surprise us all.

 

No Sox fan wants to wait until next year. I would love to compete for a ring every single year. I don't see that this year unless the owners have a major change of policy and open wide their wallets and trade away some key prospects. I hope that does not happen. Its not good strategy IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

The sox are good enough to make the playoffs and if things go right, they could win the WS.

[jung]

Youks value is not overblown by anybody on this site. He is the Sox starting 3rd baseman. If he is traded he will be a key feature of whatever trade he is involved in. His value is never going to be better than it is today regardless of the fact that it is not what it was a couple of years ago. He's getting older not younger.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Went to a Red Sox store today. Found something awfully strange. They had players t shirts for 75% off. Obviously Papelbons was there but what was weird was the other player whose jersey was 75% off - Ortiz. Wonder what that's all about. I know he accepted arb, but it is still very strange. I think Beltre and VMarts jerseys went on sale last year right before they signed elsewhere.

[User Name]

The sox are good enough to make the playoffs and if things go right' date=' they could win the WS.[/quote']

 

It's f***ing pathetic that a Yankee fan can see this, but a lot of Red Sox fans can't.

[jung]

Not only is Youk the Sox starting 3rd baseman but he would make a terrific 1st baseman for any team trying to fill that slot. In fact I would move him there immediately if I were a team that traded for him. That is where he should have gone for the Sox if they had not traded brought in AGons.

[iortiz]

The sox are good enough to make the playoffs and if things go right' date=' they could win the WS.[/quote']

 

If we bring the solid remaining pieces (SP, BP arms), yes, otherwise we are in jeopardy. As Jung said:

As currently configured they have too much offense and too little pitching for me to take them seriously

[Elktonnick]

Not only is Youk the Sox starting 3rd baseman but he would make a terrific 1st baseman for any team trying to fill that slot. In fact I would move him there immediately if I were a team that traded for him. That is where he should have gone for the Sox if they had not traded brought in AGons.

 

Youk's trade value will never be higher. He is more valuable as a first baseman. I seriously doubt if Youk will play 120 games at third probably a lot less. He is more likely to stay healthier in a less stressful position such as DH. So in many respects he is more valuable elsewhere than in Boston

[iortiz]

Not only is Youk the Sox starting 3rd baseman but he would make a terrific 1st baseman for any team trying to fill that slot. In fact I would move him there immediately if I were a team that traded for him. That is where he should have gone for the Sox if they had not traded brought in AGons.

 

Good point. But, who would likely fill the 3B after Youk's depart? Aviles? Regardless you already have a question mark in the RF and already a LH-lineup.

[jung]

Seems to me that the Sox have made it just about impossible to keep Youk. They have effectively closed off any opportunity for Youk at either 1st of DH. All he can do over at third is play a few games and hurt himself again, serving to reinforce the fact of his brittleness and proving to the league once again that he really should not be playing at 3rd. Someone trading for him would respect his ability to play 3rd but rightfully would trade for him as a 1st baseman/DH/3rd baseman.

[FredLynn]

It's f***ing pathetic that a Yankee fan can see this' date=' but a lot of Red Sox fans can't.[/quote']

 

Its f***ing pathetic that some Red Sox fans feel that the team can compete every single year for a World Championship.

No team can do that. Not every year.

[a700hitter]

Seems to me that the Sox have made it just about impossible to keep Youk. They have effectively closed off any opportunity for Youk at either 1st of DH. All he can do over at third is play a few games and hurt himself again' date=' serving to reinforce the fact of his brittleness and proving to the league once again that he really should not be playing at 3rd. Someone trading for him would respect his ability to play 3rd but rightfully would trade for him as a 1st baseman/DH/3rd baseman.[/quote']They have really tied their hands with regard to Youk. If they trade him, our lineup would be:

 

1. Ellsbury (LH)

2. Pedroia (RH)

3. AGon (LH)

4. Ortiz (LH)

5. Crawford (LH)

6. Scutaro (RH)

7. Salty (SH)

8. Aviles (RH)

9. Sweeney (LH)

 

There is not one bona fide right handed power hitter in that lineup. That just can't cut it.

7.

[jung]

Good point. But, who would likely fill the 3B after Youk's depart? Aviles? Regardless you already have a question mark in the RF and already a LH-lineup.

 

Gotta give something to get something. If the Sox really cared about the LH/RH thing they would not have given Ortiz arbitration. So it really does not matter what I care about. What the Sox care about is all that really matters.

 

They would likely have to bring in somebody to hold down the 3rd base position defensively. As I have said before we can not claim this team to be an offensive juggernaut and then balk at every move that might pull one guy out of that lineup. Can't have it both ways. I would judge any team that could not afford to take a Youk out of its lineup to be weak offensively, not strong offensively. They appear to have made their bed with Ortiz. So fine if Ortiz is staying certainly AGons is not going anywhere. That leaves Youk the odd man out. I would even suggest that holding onto him this year given that they have committed to Ortiz would be a mistake.

[FredLynn]

The sox are good enough to make the playoffs and if things go right' date=' they could win the WS.[/quote']

 

Correction: The Sox are good enough to COMPETE for a playoff spot and if things go unexpectedly well, they could win a WS.

I would, however, not bet the farm on it.

[a700hitter]

Its f***ing pathetic that some Red Sox fans feel that the team can compete every single year for a World Championship.

No team can do that. Not every year.

But we have missed the playoffs 2 straight years already. If I am the owners and I am spending a ton for payroll, I don't think I would be unreasonable if I expected to make the playoffs at least once in 3 years.

[User Name]

Its f***ing pathetic that some Red Sox fans feel that the team can compete every single year for a World Championship.

No team can do that. Not every year.

 

What does this even mean?

 

They can't compete every year, but the team, as currently constructed could compete, and we haven't even seen what the final product is going to be. It's honestly pretty dumb to think that a team with this much talent simply can't compete next year. No matter how much of a Doomsday Device you are.

[jung]

But we have missed the playoffs 2 straight years already. If I am the owners and I am spending a ton for payroll, I don't think I would be unreasonable if I expceted to make the playoffs at least once in 3 years.

 

Unfortunately the Sox have spent a good bit of that money unwisely. Appearances suggest that they are considering that factor more relevant than having missed the playoffs.

[a700hitter]

Unfortunately the Sox have spent a good bit of that money unwisely. Appearances suggest that they are considering that factor more relevant than having missed the playoffs.

I believe that is a mistake. They risk damaging the reputation of the franchise.

[iortiz]

Unfortunately the Sox have spent a good bit of that money unwisely. Appearances suggest that they are considering that factor more relevant than having missed the playoffs.

 

This is Theo's legacy. Some say this is LL's. Some say this is a mix. Either way, If I were JH I would be very careful where to put my millions again, You bet.

[jung]

I believe that is a mistake. They risk damaging the reputation of the franchise.

 

It might be a mistake but the opportunity to spend big money this off season has already passed them by. Regardless of what they do in the FA market from this day forward we will not be able to categorize this off season as one where they were big spenders.

 

Madson is the only guy left that sort of fits that profile and would have a spot with the Sox and they are not going to end up with Madson. They might end up with a Kuroda or a Jackson or an Oswalt but they won't end up with either three of them or two of them. At best they might end up with one of them.

[FredLynn]

Unfortunately the Sox have spent a good bit of that money unwisely. Appearances suggest that they are considering that factor more relevant than having missed the playoffs.

 

Exactly. If Epstein had not hamstrung the franchise with all those loser contracts we would have had the money to go out and buy top tier FA SP. Now they are gone, and we are left with nonimpact second tier bums who are expensive. Garza could be had if we want to complete the rape of our farm system, but that would be pretty stupid. So would spending $15M to get Oswalt or Kuroda for one year. They will not solve our pitching problems.

Contrary to what UserName thinks, we do NOT have the pitching to compete for a ring right now and are not likely to get it before the end of the season. Could it happen? Sure. But again, I would not bet money on it. Lets just keep it real here.

[User Name]

Exactly. If Epstein had not hamstrung the franchise with all those loser contracts we would have had the money to go out and buy top tier FA SP. Now they are gone, and we are left with nonimpact second tier bums who are expensive. Garza could be had if we want to complete the rape of our farm system, but that would be pretty stupid. So would spending $15M to get Oswalt or Kuroda for one year. They will not solve our pitching problems.

Contrary to what UserName thinks, we do NOT have the pitching to compete for a ring right now and are not likely to get it before the end of the season. Could it happen? Sure. But again, I would not bet money on it. Lets just keep it real here.

 

That's a black hole of logic. You are stating that the Sox can't compete, yet admit they could compete.

[a700hitter]

Exactly. If Epstein had not hamstrung the franchise with all those loser contracts we would have had the money to go out and buy top tier FA SP. Now they are gone, and we are left with nonimpact second tier bums who are expensive. Garza could be had if we want to complete the rape of our farm system, but that would be pretty stupid. So would spending $15M to get Oswalt or Kuroda for one year. They will not solve our pitching problems.

Contrary to what UserName thinks, we do NOT have the pitching to compete for a ring right now and are not likely to get it before the end of the season. Could it happen? Sure. But again, I would not bet money on it. Lets just keep it real here.

I agree completely. I hold out some hope that Benny Boy has a rabbit in his hat.

[iortiz]

I believe that is a mistake. They risk damaging the reputation of the franchise.

 

On the other hand this is true. A no-go for an extra +-20 M investement could risk an already 180 M payroll.

[FredLynn]

But we have missed the playoffs 2 straight years already. If I am the owners and I am spending a ton for payroll' date=' I don't think I would be unreasonable if I expected to make the playoffs at least once in 3 years.[/quote']

 

Look at our pitching, which finished NINTH in the AL last year. How have we improved that? We can hope that our top three stay healthy, but that is not likely. We can hope that a FA SP falls into our lap for little money, but that too is unlikely. We can hope that Doubront or Bowden or Silva just blossoms into a ML SP, but thats unlikely too. Our pen is raped with Bard, our most effective reliever, becoming a SP with unknown results. Our clubhouse is filled with MEFIRSTS.

Sure its possible that we could win a ring. Hell, that would be great. But there is a difference between the real world and what you *wish* were so. Some folks don't get that.

[FredLynn]

That's a black hole of logic. You are stating that the Sox can't compete' date=' yet admit they could compete. [/quote']

 

Its a matter of numbers. Las Vegas works the same way. They never say that a team cannot win a ring; they give odds that they can or can not win one.

Right now our odds are not great. Time to fix what is wrong; compete for a ring next year, hopefully.