2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

The fact that Wakefield cannot get anybody out any more is obvious to anyone who follows the team. However, he is cheap. And that fact will not escape the attention of the ownership IMO. I think that there is a significant chance they will sign him again even though he stinks.

Again, if this is a rebuilding year you cannot rebuild everything all at once. You have to wait for some of the bad contracts Epstein hobbled us with to come off the books. Then you can buy some ML pitchers.

Until then, its incompetent selfish boobs like Wakefield.

I am even cheaper than Wakefield and i can't get anyone out either. I don't think they should sign me or Wakefield.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I respect the hell out of Wakefield but they really need to move on regardless of how cheap he is. What's the point if he can't contribute much anymore?

 

Baseball season needs to hurry up. I'm going through like a major depression. I need my baseball already.

[jung]

I guess the bigger problem for me with Wakefield is the one it makes at Catcher. The Sox were clearly finally moving away from the kind of formula that carrying a knuckler demands and I don't know what happens to that now. I will be more interested to see what they do at Catcher if they sign Wakefield as another year of watching Salty let ball after ball go by is going to be intolerable.

[Palodios]

The fact that Wakefield cannot get anybody out any more is obvious to anyone who follows the team. However, he is cheap. And that fact will not escape the attention of the ownership IMO. I think that there is a significant chance they will sign him again even though he stinks.

Again, if this is a rebuilding year you cannot rebuild everything all at once. You have to wait for some of the bad contracts Epstein hobbled us with to come off the books. Then you can buy some ML pitchers.

Until then, its incompetent selfish boobs like Wakefield.

 

Drew and Cameron came off this year, Jenks and Dice-k come off next year. No Wakefield, no way :thumbdown

[SoxFanForsyth]

I am even cheaper than Wakefield and i can't get anyone out either. I don't think they should sign me or Wakefield.

 

Me too. I have a wicked pickoff move to first, too. They call me Steve Avery Junior.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I respect the hell out of Wakefield but they really need to move on regardless of how cheap he is. What's the point if he can't contribute much anymore?

 

Baseball season needs to hurry up. I'm going through like a major depression. I need my baseball already.

 

Totally. I bet that 75 and sunny weather down in Miami is brutal this time of year. :harhar:

[a700hitter]

I agree. He has a career OPS over .900 versus lefties and is a versatile defender.

 

Of course, his 2011 season might be scaring off teams. His power versus lefties disappeared.

Other RH OF choices are Andruw Jones, Gomes, and Burrell.

[example1]

I just don't think the Sox are that worried about a RH OF. They ought to pay attention for one but pitching is the name of the game right now.

[a700hitter]

I just don't think the Sox are that worried about a RH OF. They ought to pay attention for one but pitching is the name of the game right now.

They still need a RH OFer, even though it is not as crucial as the need for pitching. Which RH OFerdo you like?

[FredLynn]

Drew and Cameron came off this year' date=' Jenks and Dice-k come off next year. No Wakefield, no way :thumbdown[/quote']

 

Drew and Cameron came off, but didn't Gonzalez get a big raise?

And isn't it in 2013 that we will have to deal with Ellsbury and his raise (or departure)? I think he is arbitration eligible after even NEXT year.

Its not going to get much easier because of the idiotic contracts Epstein gave Lackey, Beckett, and Crawford.

[mvp 78]

Drew and Cameron came off, but didn't Gonzalez get a big raise?

And isn't it in 2013 that we will have to deal with Ellsbury and his raise (or departure)? I think he is arbitration eligible after even NEXT year.

Its not going to get much easier because of the idiotic contracts Epstein gave Lackey, Beckett, and Crawford.

 

Think it's the offseason after 2013. This team shouldn't bitch about the luxury tax. It can afford the extra costs.

[Station 13]

Beckett and Lackey will have just 1 year left on their contract after 2013. Both Ortiz and Youkilis are most likely gone too. 4 mega contracts nearing it ends just in time to deal with Ellsbury.

 

But also we need to replace those 4, either via costly free agency or through the system. A couple of prospects could rise to the challenge then to take over at least at SP (Barnes, Ranaudo) and 3B (Bogaerts, WMB), OF(Jacbobs, Brentz).

 

Ahh f*** it.

 

Let's worried about 2014 when it's 2014.

 

Let's get some damn SP for 2012.

[jung]

I don't think the amount of money coming off the books relative to Ells is as significant to the Sox as the amount of money they would have tied up in their outfield if they are forced into negotiation with him. Unfortunately the Sox themselves have set the expectations that a player like Ells would have because of what they gave Crawford. A different team might be able to negotiate with Ells and get to more reasonable numbers because Crawford' contract is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The Sox themselves have no shot and Ells is even more in the catbird seat than Ortiz is this year.

 

In my view regardless of what comes off the books the Sox are not going to tie up over $40M per year in two outfield positions and one could hardly blame them. If you are going to err on the upside, pay for pitching not outfielders. I would love to have Ells. I would love to have him over Crawford but the Sox already made the mistake and there are no good ways out of the fix they put themselves into by signing Crawford to such an extraordinary contract. To hear Cashman tell it, he played Theo like a violin.

 

I suspect the Sox are here because Theo determined that he was going to lose Ells in any event making whatever he paid Crawford a mute point. i still don't like the decision and would not have liked it for about a zillion reasons even if Crawford had a decent 2011 instead of a disastrous 2011.

[example1]

Drew and Cameron came off, but didn't Gonzalez get a big raise?

And isn't it in 2013 that we will have to deal with Ellsbury and his raise (or departure)? I think he is arbitration eligible after even NEXT year.

Its not going to get much easier because of the idiotic contracts Epstein gave Lackey, Beckett, and Crawford.

 

Beckett has been worth that contract in 4 of the last 5 years I believe.

[FredLynn]

Beckett has been worth that contract in 4 of the last 5 years I believe.

 

I would say that for what he is being paid his ERA should be less than 4, and he should come through when we need him. His ERA has been less than 4 for 3 of the past 5 years-and 3 of the past 6 years, in fact. Its been over 5 for 2 years. He is being paid $17M per year now. If he repeats his past performance (over the last 6 years, all of his time on the team), I don't think that he is being apppropriately paid.

[FredLynn]

Think it's the offseason after 2013. This team shouldn't bitch about the luxury tax. It can afford the extra costs.

 

Yes, they CAN afford the extra costs. The owners are BILLIONAIRRES. But they are not going to do it. They will stick to their preconceived budget to the detriment of the team. That is the primary reason I think we are in a rebuilding year. If the owners were WILLING to open up their damn purses we could compete for a ring. Realistically, I don't see that happening.

[iortiz]

I don't think the amount of money coming off the books relative to Ells is as significant to the Sox as the amount of money they would have tied up in their outfield if they are forced into negotiation with him. Unfortunately the Sox themselves have set the expectations that a player like Ells would have because of what they gave Crawford. A different team might be able to negotiate with Ells and get to more reasonable numbers because Crawford' contract is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The Sox themselves have no shot and Ells is even more in the catbird seat than Ortiz is this year.

 

In my view regardless of what comes off the books the Sox are not going to tie up over $40M per year in two outfield positions and one could hardly blame them. If you are going to err on the upside, pay for pitching not outfielders. I would love to have Ells. I would love to have him over Crawford but the Sox already made the mistake and there are no good ways out of the fix they put themselves into by signing Crawford to such an extraordinary contract. To hear Cashman tell it, he played Theo like a violin.

 

I suspect the Sox are here because Theo determined that he was going to lose Ells in any event making whatever he paid Crawford a mute point. i still don't like the decision and would not have liked it for about a zillion reasons even if Crawford had a decent 2011 instead of a disastrous 2011.

 

Some have said that Crawford's contract valued according with the market in 2010 offseason and his caliber (numbers) as a player and some just the opposite. Look at Werth's contract and the OFs available at that time. I was very, very excited when he was signed, that I didn't care about the amount of his contract at time. This guy already ate 14 M. If he comebacks (likely, and better), everybody will forget the amount of his contract and his 2011 disastrous season, otherwise be prepare for an extensive crusade against Carl Crawford.

[Spitball]

Yes' date=' they CAN afford the extra costs. The owners are BILLIONAIRRES. But they are not going to do it. They will stick to their preconceived budget to the detriment of the team. That is the primary reason I think we are in a rebuilding year. If the owners were WILLING to open up their damn purses we could compete for a ring. Realistically, I don't see that happening.[/quote']

 

Billionaires didn't get to be billionaires by making unwise business moves, and the certainly don't want to become millionaires. I honestly believe the Red Sox and Yankees are not being more active for economic reasons that we perhaps do not understand.

[jung]

As fans, we don't care about he size of player contracts. We may only care if we can draw some correlation between player payroll and ticket prices. However ownership won't spend money like Crawford money on another outfielder when they could spend that money on pitching. They will never be able to justify it to themselves when they think about the kinds of pitchers they could sign for $21M per year or $22M per year.

[FredLynn]

Billionaires didn't get to be billionaires by making unwise business moves' date=' and the certainly don't want to become millionaires. I honestly believe the Red Sox and Yankees are not being more active for economic reasons that we perhaps do not understand.[/quote']

 

Hey- I am not saying that they are wrong THIS YEAR to be thrifty. The investment needed to make this team a contender for a ring would be very large. In other years I have complained about their failure to open up their purses because IMO a relatively small amount of money would have put us over the top. This year I have repeatedly posted here that the right thing to do is sit pat and conserve both money and players and call it what it is: a rebuilding year, Red Sox style. Next year or the year after we go after another ring.

[example1]

I would say that for what he is being paid his ERA should be less than 4' date=' and he should come through when we need him. His ERA has been less than 4 for 3 of the past 5 years-and 3 of the past 6 years, in fact. Its been over 5 for 2 years. He is being paid $17M per year now. If he repeats his past performance (over the last 6 years, all of his time on the team), I don't think that he is being apppropriately paid.[/quote']

 

That may be what you say, but it isn't what the market says. Beckett is being paid like a front of the rotation SP in a major market gets paid. He gets paid between the salary paid to CC Sabathia and Mark Buerhle.

 

You clearly don't like Beckett, which is obviously fine, but it doesn't make him a worse pitcher than he is. Lackeys contract and Crawfords contract were bad. If not for those people would bitch less about be Becketts.

[NativeBostonian]

Billionaires didn't get to be billionaires by making unwise business moves' date=' and the certainly don't want to become millionaires. I honestly believe the Red Sox and Yankees are not being more active for economic reasons that we perhaps do not understand.[/quote']

 

I agree with you here. Look at what the Miami Marlins have done. We all knew they had the money. They just wanted to waited for the right time to spend it, to try to get more bang for their buck. A new stadium will automatically draw more fans. So, fielding a better team, while you have those fans that are just coming to check out the new stadium, that their tax payer dalliers are paying for, hopefully will keep them coming back.

[FredLynn]

That may be what you say, but it isn't what the market says. Beckett is being paid like a front of the rotation SP in a major market gets paid. He gets paid between the salary paid to CC Sabathia and Mark Buerhle.

 

You clearly don't like Beckett, which is obviously fine, but it doesn't make him a worse pitcher than he is. Lackeys contract and Crawfords contract were bad. If not for those people would bitch less about be Becketts.

 

Beckett's ERA with the Red Sox is over 4. That is not worthy of a $17M contract. He is not what I would call an "ace". He is a step below that.

For comparison, CJ Wilson just signed a contract worth $15.4M per year, and his career ERA is 3.60. Jered Weaver is making the same money Beckett is making, but has an ERA of 3.31.

Beckett just doesn't measure up. There are many many examples of guys making less than he is that are doing a good job more consistently that he is. I am not going to research all of them. Thats a bad contract IMO-another gift to the frachise by an incompetent GM.

[jung]

I am likely to get hammered for this one but if I put the clubhouse antics aside (which don't count for much at contract time anyway)I would say that Beckett is slightly underpaid , not based on when he signed his current contract but based on pitchers signing new contracts today. I think it was a fair deal when he signed. in many cases "fair" deals start to work at least a little toward the team eventually. The outlandish contracts have the players getting outrageous sums of money in the later years when they should be on SS. I guess in totally it is likely a fair deal all around as Beckett has been up and down as others have noted. Pitchers are getting crazy money these days as the standard seems to have been lowered for SP at least to some extent.

[Deebs]

Yes' date=' they CAN afford the extra costs. The owners are BILLIONAIRRES. But they are not going to do it. They will stick to their preconceived budget to the detriment of the team. That is the primary reason I think we are in a rebuilding year. If the owners were WILLING to open up their damn purses we could compete for a ring. Realistically, I don't see that happening.[/quote']

 

You know, it's usually good business sense to stick to the budget.

 

The team is supposedly strapped right now, according to you, because of bad contracts to Beckett, Lackey, and Crawford. So what do you want the owners to do? Open their purse strings and shell out money for some more bad contracts?

 

Most of the contracts being handed out this off season are ridiculous.

[FredLynn]

I am likely to get hammered for this one but if I put the clubhouse antics aside (which don't count for much at contract time anyway)I would say that Beckett is slightly underpaid ' date=' not based on when he signed his current contract but based on pitchers signing new contracts today. I think it was a fair deal when he signed. in many cases "fair" deals start to work at least a little toward the team eventually. The outlandish contracts have the players getting outrageous sums of money in the later years when they should be on SS. I guess in totally it is likely a fair deal all around as Beckett has been up and down as others have noted. Pitchers are getting crazy money these days as the standard seems to have been lowered for SP at least to some extent.[/quote']

 

In a way, Beckett is worth exactly what he got. Just like the value of your home-its worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it.

That said, I would not have bought Beckett for 4x $17M.

[Deebs]

I am likely to get hammered for this one but if I put the clubhouse antics aside (which don't count for much at contract time anyway)I would say that Beckett is slightly underpaid ' date=' not based on when he signed his current contract but based on pitchers signing new contracts today. I think it was a fair deal when he signed. in many cases "fair" deals start to work at least a little toward the team eventually. The outlandish contracts have the players getting outrageous sums of money in the later years when they should be on SS. I guess in totally it is likely a fair deal all around as Beckett has been up and down as others have noted. Pitchers are getting crazy money these days as the standard seems to have been lowered for SP at least to some extent.[/quote']

 

Outside of 2006 and 2010, Beckett has pitched very well and has more than earned his salary, IMO.

 

Clubhouse antics aside, if I had the chance to go back and re-think his contract extension, I wouldn't change anything about it.

[FredLynn]

You know, it's usually good business sense to stick to the budget.

 

The team is supposedly strapped right now, according to you, because of bad contracts to Beckett, Lackey, and Crawford. So what do you want the owners to do? Open their purse strings and shell out money for some more bad contracts?

 

Most of the contracts being handed out this off season are ridiculous.

 

Not this year. I think they should save their money for a year that we have a need for just a bit more than they are willing to spend and then get us the piece that puts us over the top. There is no way for the owners to realistically afford two good SP, a closer, much of the pen, and a quality RHH OF all at once. Thats what we need. Its just too much for one year.

[RonVermette]

Whatever money the owners have allowed themselves to spend between now and April will mostly go to a quality starter. How much that is is anybody's guess. That's all they need to have a strong contending team.

Has there ever been a major move between Xmas & New Years?

[FredLynn]

Whatever money the owners have allowed themselves to spend between now and April will mostly go to a quality starter. How much that is is anybody's guess. That's all they need to have a strong contending team.

Has there ever been a major move between Xmas & New Years?

 

Great. Who closes then? Who else is in the pen? Who is the fourth starter?

The needs for this team are great...nearly impossible to fill in one year.