2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[SoxFanForsyth]

I don't like Oswald E1, somehow remembers me Bedard (prone to injuries)! I don't wanna go through it again.

 

I'd prefer Gio.

 

Would you prefer Oswalt, Lavarnway/WMB, and Kalish?

 

Or would you prefer just Gio?

 

Gio's price is steeeep. They asked the Marlins for Mike Stanton.

[Elktonnick]

Yet some fans (not you necessarily) love mouthing off about the inside workings of a ballclub like they actually know what's going on in there. See where i'm going with this?

 

Yes in the wrong direction as usual! When we speak of an insiders game we refer to who gets hired. When one looks from the outside in, one's can surmise why moves are made based on overt factors including but not limited to what is being said publically. This is done all the time in a variety of activities from business, to politics and to other sports. While I agree it isn't 100% accurate, it is interesting and useful nonetheless.

[iortiz]

Hey man. Don't criticize Pedroia. That's my only player I'll get offended about. Plays all out' date=' 110% every single day. That's really all you can ever ask from anyone.[/quote']

 

Agree.

 

He is a winner my friend, he is the soul of this team IMO, so... Don't worry I don't see doing that hehehe

 

Hell some of us used to criticize Lackey, Jenks, Cameron, McD, etc and believe it or not some of the optimist club went to our throat... Unbelievable

[example1]

I don't love Oswalt either, but as a #4 starter and assuming he's cheap, he is probably as good as can be signed at this point. I think Gio will cost all of their top pieces and I'm not sure he's worth gutting the system for.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Agree, Example. Only a couple pitchers who I gut the system for - Felix, Josh Johnson, Verlander, and Tim Lincecum. That's about it right there.

 

Gio, to me, isn't even close to that talent.

[iortiz]

Would you prefer Oswalt, Lavarnway/WMB, and Kalish?

 

Or would you prefer just Gio?

 

Gio's price is steeeep. They asked the Marlins for Mike Stanton.

 

The wound at pitching is so fresh on me Syth, you know how long we discussed this in Sep.... Tough call though.

 

I said earlier that maybe they are thinking in land Beltran and go for the kid even if that means letting go Kalish and Lav. How does it sound? That could make sense to me.

[iortiz]

I don't love Oswalt either' date=' but as a #4 starter and assuming he's cheap, he is probably as good as can be signed at this point. I think Gio will cost all of their top pieces and I'm not sure he's worth gutting the system for.[/quote']

 

Well, I'm not sure if he is cheap E1.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The wound at pitching is so fresh on me Syth, you know how long we discussed this in Sep.... Tough call tough.

 

I said earlier that maybe they are thinking in land Beltran and go for the kid even if that means letting go Kalish and Lav. How does it sound? That could make sense to me.

 

I will say this - the thing that's appealing about signing Gio is that he's not just a stop-gap. He's a guy we will have for a while. Right now, we can't have a stop-gap because we have no pitching in the upper minors that just needs that extra 1-2 years of development, and then will be ready to compete in the MLB.

 

That's exactly what Oswalt will be, too. A stop gap. But a stop gap to what? Nothing. So I definitely see the need for another young arm to step in.

 

Having said that, I am ok with dishing Lavarnway. I'd rather keep Kalish but it's not a deal breaker. I'd hang up on Billy Beane if he mentioned Will Middlebrooks, Xander Bogaerts, or Brandon Jacobs. Those are my 3 untouchables.

 

I'd go Lavarnway + Kalish + Ranaudo for Gio, though.

[Dojji]

The more deals of that nature we do, the longer and longer it will take to get the young studs we need out of our own system.

[example1]

Well' date=' I'm not sure if he is cheap E1.[/quote']

 

My assumption in suggesting him is that if signed it would be for cheap. I don't mean 1 million/year, but 5-6 million maybe. :dunno:

[SoxFanForsyth]

The more deals of that nature we do' date=' the longer and longer it will take to get the young studs we need out of our own system.[/quote']

 

You really should cheer for a small market team that has no finances because that's the mindset that you have.

 

The reason a trade for Gio would work so well is because he's still a cost controlled, young arm. Much like the ones we would be generating out of our own system.

 

And we give up what for him? If we can send over Reddick + Lavarnway + Lars Anderson + Vitek/Cecchini, you are essentially dealing away prospects that play positions that are blocked, so it doesn't hurt the team. By the time Gonzo, Ellsbury, Salty, and Youk are gone, we'll have a new 1B via FA or draft, Brandon Jacobs/Bryce Brentz, Swihart, and WMB to take their spots.

 

If we deal out of positions of depth, it won't hurt. Dealing out of positions of weakness is where you get in trouble.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Marlins & Red Sox Have Discussed Hanley Ramirez

By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 16, 2011 at 11:10am CST]

The Red Sox are among the teams that have had cursory trade dialogue with the Marlins about Hanley Ramirez, according to ESPN.com's Buster Olney (on Twitter). However, the talks have no traction.

 

The Marlins don't intend to trade Ramirez, even after signing shortstop Jose Reyes. However, Olney reported Sunday that at least four teams have talked to the Marlins about a possible deal involving Ramirez. At this point he projects as the team's everyday third baseman, though he appears to prefer playing shortstop.

 

Ramirez, who signed with the Red Sox as an amateur free agent in 2000, appeared in just 92 games this past season due to a sprained left shoulder. He posted a .243/.333/.379 line in 385 plate appearances -- far from his career .306/.380/.506 line.

[User Name]

Yes in the wrong direction as usual! When we speak of an insiders game we refer to who gets hired. When one looks from the outside in' date=' one's can surmise why moves are made based on overt factors including but not limited to what is being said publically. This is done all the time in a variety of activities from business, to politics and to other sports. While I agree it isn't 100% accurate, it is interesting and useful nonetheless.[/quote']

 

I would say your "wrong direction as usual". I didn't include you in it, but there are people who like to spout their opinion as fact, and their speculation as real. This is fact.

[User Name]

Oswalt is injury-prone? He had 7 straight 180+ IP seasons (with 6 of them being 200+) before last season, and the injury he had wasn't even structural.

 

Stuff like this takes 20 seconds to check out.

[User Name]

Agree, Example. Only a couple pitchers who I gut the system for - Felix, Josh Johnson, Verlander, and Tim Lincecum. That's about it right there.

 

Gio, to me, isn't even close to that talent.

 

You'd gut the system for Josh Johnsonn? One 200 IP season Johnsonn? The man is a walking DL stint and he's post-op. Re-think please.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You'd gut the system for Josh Johnsonn? One 200 IP season Johnsonn? The man is a walking DL stint and he's post-op. Re-think please.

 

Good point. I guess I wouldn't gut for JJ. When he's healthy, though, he's as talented as anyone out there.

[VA Sox Fan]

I don't understand why anyone would be offended by criticism leveled at any teams FO, unless they are family members of those being criticized. IMO, Sports executives are basically a bunch of privileged knuckleheads that lucked into a very lucrative business. They are an incestuous bunch of leeches and my disdain for them runs across all sports. That being said, obviously some do a better job than others, and that's what we are here to discuss. Many of them are not qualified to run a business. What big organization puts someone in charge that has a degree in History? Baseball and other major sports recycle these dolts. Does a baseball executive ever lose a job and have to get a job in a different industry? Never. They shuffle them around from team to team and within organizations and they stay until they get toe tags, and most of them achieve little if anything during there careers. Dan Duquette is back as a GM for crying out loud. I have no particular like or dislike of any particular sports executive, but rather disdain for the entire group, so I cannot understand the cult like adulation for the Sox FO by some fans.

 

IMO, there was one great sports executive-- Branch Rickey. The rest have been leeches to one degree or another. Rickey was courageous and an innovator. Before he changed baseball and society by bringing Jackie Robinson to the major leagues, he changed baseball profoundly by developing the modern farm system for the Cardinals. Of course, the despicable leech and greedy pig, O'malley undermined Rickey and squeezed him out of the Dodger organization. Rickey went to the Pirates organization where he was the first GM to start a major influx of Hispanic ballplayers. Rickey had been hiding Clemente from other teams while he was in the Dodger organization. When he went to Pittsburgh, he plucked him from the Dodgers.

 

I have no problem with people criticizing the FO. But when people act like they know more than the front office I have a problem. None of knows the ins and outs and has all the access to the information the FO has. Not even the media. Drives me nuts.

 

The impatience with off season moves also drives me nuts.

Does anyone remember when the NYY signed Arod? 2/14/04. Not that the Red Sox will do anything that huge but there is still plenty of time.

[a700hitter]

You really should cheer for a small market team that has no finances because that's the mindset that you have.

 

The reason a trade for Gio would work so well is because he's still a cost controlled, young arm. Much like the ones we would be generating out of our own system.

 

And we give up what for him? If we can send over Reddick + Lavarnway + Lars Anderson + Vitek/Cecchini, you are essentially dealing away prospects that play positions that are blocked, so it doesn't hurt the team. By the time Gonzo, Ellsbury, Salty, and Youk are gone, we'll have a new 1B via FA or draft, Brandon Jacobs/Bryce Brentz, Swihart, and WMB to take their spots.

 

If we deal out of positions of depth, it won't hurt. Dealing out of positions of weakness is where you get in trouble.

Initially, I didn't like the idea of giving up a lot for Gio, but as you point out, he's not some old expensive guy on his last leg. He's young, lefthanded and cost controlled. We'd be lucky if one of our current pitching prospects gets to that point. If we "gutted" the farm for Gio and we decided after a year or two that he is not our guy, he'd probably still have some good market value in a trade, because he is young and lefthanded. He will not lose trade value unless he really bombs out. I'm on board for getting this guy even though he will cost big.

[a700hitter]

I have no problem with people criticizing the FO. But when people act like they know more than the front office I have a problem. None of knows the ins and outs and has all the access to the information the FO has. Not even the media. Drives me nuts.

Those who criticize are making the case for doing things differently, i.e. they know better. You have a problem with the criticism. How can you say that you don't? This explanation of yours makes no sense.

[VA Sox Fan]

Those who criticize are making the case for doing things differently' date=' i.e. they know better.[/b'] You have a problem with the criticism. How can you say that you don't? This explanation of yours makes no sense.

 

How can anyone know better than the FO?

[SoxFanForsyth]

How can anyone know better than the FO?

 

Because it's all subjective. Everyone's opinions are the best in their own mind. So if it is my opinion that we should go trade for Gio, while the FO thinks we should build a bullpen and move Aceves and Bard to the rotation, in my mind, I know better than the FO, and thus the criticism.

 

People will only criticize if the FO did something that they don't agree with. If they don't agree with it, they think that another option would have produced a better outcome, and thus they know better than the FO.

[a700hitter]

How can anyone know better than the FO?

There are 30 teams. Some finish last. Some finish first. Not every FO is doing a great job. Are they privy to information that we don't have? Certainly. However, we are able to judge the moves they have made. It's baseball, not science. We can all have an opinion about this stuff. Your opinions about this stuff are tolerated. No one posts that you drive them nuts.

[a700hitter]

Because it's all subjective. Everyone's opinions are the best in their own mind. So if it is my opinion that we should go trade for Gio, while the FO thinks we should build a bullpen and move Aceves and Bard to the rotation, in my mind, I know better than the FO, and thus the criticism.

 

People will only criticize if the FO did something that they don't agree with. If they don't agree with it, they think that another option would have produced a better outcome, and thus they know better than the FO.

... and in the end, who knows who is wrong or right. If the team wins, the FO vindicates itself.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I have no problem with people criticizing the FO. But when people act like they know more than the front office I have a problem. None of knows the ins and outs and has all the access to the information the FO has. Not even the media. Drives me nuts.

 

The impatience with off season moves also drives me nuts.

Does anyone remember when the NYY signed Arod? 2/14/04. Not that the Red Sox will do anything that huge but there is still plenty of time.

 

Plain and simple, we were extremely spoiled last offseason. Made 2 monster moves by 12/10 last year.

 

I guarantee you that next offseason, the Angels will be complaining if Arte takes his time to make moves like Cherington is doing this offseason.

 

Plus, it took them forever and a day to hire a manager, while the Cubs and Cards both moved quicker and go on with their offseason.

[SoxFanForsyth]

... and in the end' date=' who knows who is wrong or right. If the team wins, the FO vindicates itself.[/quote']

 

Exactly. It's all subjective. And it's what makes the offseason interesting and entertaining.

[a700hitter]

Plain and simple, we were extremely spoiled last offseason. Made 2 monster moves by 12/10 last year.

 

I guarantee you that next offseason, the Angels will be complaining if Arte takes his time to make moves like Cherington is doing this offseason.

Plus, it took them forever and a day to hire a manager, while the Cubs and Cards both moved quicker and go on with their offseason.

The Angels fans will not complain if they end up in the World Series in 2012, and we wouldn't be complaining either if the Sox performed as billed and went to the WS in 2011. Quite the opposite happened. There was a giant sucking sound heard all over New England that was the 2011 Sox going down the drain at a record pace in September. As fans, we know that this team need to get better and we have been weakened in the off season thus far.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The Angels fans will not complain if they end up in the World Series in 2012' date=' and we wouldn't be complaining either if the Sox performed as billed and went to the WS in 2011. Quite the opposite happened. There was a giant sucking sound heard all over New England that was the 2011 Sox going down the drain at a record pace in September. As fans, we know that this team need to get better and we have been weakened in the off season thus far.[/quote']

 

Yeah I thought of that as I was typing it. Assuming they do not win the WS or make a deep PS run, they will be in the same position.

 

Look at the Phillies - their fans aren't up in arms because they went out and signed Papelbon immediately. They filled their needs when they had the most options. Cherington is putting a lot of eggs into one or two baskets as he watches FA's fly off the radar every day.

[User Name]

Because it's all subjective. Everyone's opinions are the best in their own mind. So if it is my opinion that we should go trade for Gio, while the FO thinks we should build a bullpen and move Aceves and Bard to the rotation, in my mind, I know better than the FO, and thus the criticism.

 

People will only criticize if the FO did something that they don't agree with. If they don't agree with it, they think that another option would have produced a better outcome, and thus they know better than the FO.

 

You don't quite seem to grasp what she's talking about.

 

Notice how you've disagreed with a lot of things the FO is doing yet you don't annoy the living bejeezus out of several posters?

 

It's all in the delivery. The know-it-all attitude and whining are as annoying as a case of hemorrhoids in a plane ride to China.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You don't quite seem to grasp what she's talking about.

 

Notice how you've disagreed with a lot of things the FO is doing yet you don't annoy the living bejeezus out of several posters?

 

It's all in the delivery. The know-it-all attitude and whining are as annoying as a case of hemorrhoids in a plane ride to China.

 

I see what you're saying. I was just explaining how most people think they know better than the FO.

[User Name]

Yeah I thought of that as I was typing it. Assuming they do not win the WS or make a deep PS run, they will be in the same position.

 

Look at the Phillies - their fans aren't up in arms because they went out and signed Papelbon immediately. They filled their needs when they had the most options. Cherington is putting a lot of eggs into one or two baskets as he watches FA's fly off the radar every day.

 

And why is that a bad thing? We've watched the Red Sox f*** up FA signing after signing, and go nuts about it. The fact that they're taking their time and letting the market come to them shouldn't be held against Cherington, specially on his first year as GM. He will be heavily scrutinized, so he better be careful and certain about each and every one of his signings.