2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

Tonight on the Sox Hot Stove Report Benny summed up the Sox activities as "conversation after conversation after conversation". He said that they have been gathering information and that their moves will happen later in the off season. I hope there are some good players left when he is ready to pull the trigger.

 

Edit: They are asking both Aceves and Bard to prepare for the season as starters.

[a700hitter]

Demarlo Hale is out.

[jung]

I know we are disappointed as fans and are likely to direct our criticism at JH for not being willing to spend more money but I think if we do criticize JH he might be do such treatment for allowing this situation to get so far out of hand without holding LL's feet to the fire and then to some extent baseball operations as well.

 

As one of our other esteemed posters suggests, resources in the form of money is the one advantage the Sox have over most other teams but unfortunately the Sox have mismanaged that resource. Unless you are the Yankees with their revenue stream, going over the LT tax cap three years running is simply irresponsible. The Sox had ample opportunity to manage their resources such that they did not end up in this mess and they just did not do it. This is particularly true of 2010 when they were over by a measly $1.5M. They should have avoided going over in 2010 and could easily have done that. Going over by 4 million in 2011...heck there are a few moves they could have made to have avoided that but they didn't. It was certainly more difficult in 2011 than it was in 2010 and if they had not gone over in 2010 they would only now be considering their second year over the cap limit and not be as screwed as they are now. While they are not as broke as the Mets are, they have almost been as fiscally irresponsible as the Mets have been.

 

As such I cannot fault JH for turning off the tap. The Sox bottom line fiscal performance for 2011 did not look very promising. The Sox have spent to much money. They have spent it foolishly on players that simply were luxuries in many cases. They have done so while building a team that is not well balanced and has no depth. Kind of ironic considering it is now the luxury tax limit that they confront. I would do the same if my President and my Baseball Operations had been as irresponsible as this bunch has been.

[seabeachfred]

Hey' date=' now might be a good time to become a Miami Marlins fan! They are making ALL of the moves! Imagine that. :thumbsup:[/quote']

 

I'll let you go that route VA since you're a fellow Southerner as the Miamians are. Seriously, though, I don't expect the RedSox to sign every free agent in sight but we need a closer, a RH hitting outfielder, a decent starting pitcher, and at least two solid bullpen men, more likely three. How many of that list have we gotten so far? Or do you think magnificent Andrew Miller is going to be our secret weapon next year?:harhar::harhar::harhar::harhar::harhar:

[Bellhorn04]

I know we are disappointed as fans and are likely to direct our criticism at JH for not being willing to spend more money but I think if we do criticize JH he might be do such treatment for allowing this situation to get so far out of hand without holding LL's feet to the fire and then to some extent baseball operations as well.

 

As one of our other esteemed posters suggests, resources in the form of money is the one advantage the Sox have over most other teams but unfortunately the Sox have mismanaged that resource. Unless you are the Yankees with their revenue stream, going over the LT tax cap three years running is simply irresponsible. The Sox had ample opportunity to manage their resources such that they did not end up in this mess and they just did not do it. This is particularly true of 2010 when they were over by a measly $1.5M. They should have avoided going over in 2010 and could easily have done that. Going over by 4 million in 2011...heck there are a few moves they could have made to have avoided that but they didn't. It was certainly more difficult in 2011 than it was in 2010 and if they had not gone over in 2010 they would only now be considering their second year over the cap limit and not be as screwed as they are now. While they are not as broke as the Mets are, they have almost been as fiscally irresponsible as the Mets have been.

 

As such I cannot fault JH for turning off the tap. The Sox bottom line fiscal performance for 2011 did not look very promising. The Sox have spent to much money. They have spent it foolishly on players that simply were luxuries in many cases. They have done so while building a team that is not well balanced and has no depth. Kind of ironic considering it is now the luxury tax limit that they confront. I would do the same if my President and my Baseball Operations had been as irresponsible as this bunch has been.

 

I don't think going over the tax threshold like they have is such a big deal. Okay, if you do it two years a row the rate goes to 40%. But if they never go over the limit by a huge amount the Red Sox are never going to pay that much in tax, relative to their overall revenues and expenses.

[jung]

I don't think going over the tax threshold like they have is such a big deal. Okay, if you do it two years a row the rate goes to 40%. But if they never go over the limit by a huge amount the Red Sox are never going to pay that much in tax, relative to their overall revenues and expenses.

 

I know that the way the Sox have tossed money around it would seem an insignificant issue. However it should be clear by now that the brass has made it an issue and in reality at these higher rates all you need do is get over by $10M and you are tossing $4M down a rat hole. Go four years in a row at $10M over you are taxed at 50% and toss another $5M down a rat hole. If you look at the Sox free cash flow for 2011 as projected in March of 2011, they were headed for not even breaking even at the bottom line for that year. This without figuring the luxury tax into account. So it might appear that tossing $4M and $5M around would be easy but if you are not breaking even at the bottom line even tossing $1M in luxury tax is irresponsible.

 

They have had great years of generating income up till recently but what you did last year or three years ago never matters in business. That is all done...everybody received their bonuses based on that performance and it is all about what you did this year and what you are going to do next year.

 

Right now their expenditure commitments are outrunning their ability to generate enough revenue and more importantly net income and until they can get that turned around I don't see JH allowing them to toss money back at the league in the form of luxury tax payments at rates like $40% and $50%. I do think JH is trying to make a point with his organization as well and I can't fault him for that. While the actual $ figure was pretty insignificant in 2010 based on only going over by #1.5M, the fact that his organization did not manage a $160M payroll such that they found a way to divert that $1.5M which would have staved off Year 1 over the threshold was mismanagement and slovenly business in the first place.

 

I can fault him for letting it get this far out of control. Ya' gotta' believe his plan had been to manage their revenue and their net income fairly closely. If he really wanted to go balls to the walls he would have built a new stadium long ago. He decided to take a different path but did not get his organization to stay on that path of managed revenue growth and equivalent net income performance and the penalty for that appears to be that JH has lost confidence in his organization's ability to be fiscally responsible and he is not going to open the purse strings until he is satisfied that his organization understands that and toes the line. The Red Sox are a business and JH is acting like a business man would act.

 

I also suspect that JH was not the kind of owner that planned on owning the Sox till they put him in the grave like Mr. S just south of us. If that was the way JH wanted to go again I expect he would have built a new stadium long ago. No I think in JH's case the plan has been to own the Sox for a time and then sell it off at a huge return on his investment. Screwy fiscal performance might have created a problem for a likely exit strategy time line for JH as well and that might have him pissed off to boot. At any rate, while I think he would do well to keep his mouth shut, things like his public comments about CC's signing are clear indications of his anger and frustration.

[Meh]

If he accepts arbitration' date=' the pool of available relievers will shrink even further.[/quote']

 

No this is actually good news for the Red Sox. The Brewers won't want to pay K-Rod $15 million to close. The Red Sox could trade Scutaro and his $6 million and a prospect depending on how much the Brewers are willing to eat ($1 million a C prospect or $5 million for a B prospect) to solve their SS problems. Red Sox could then use Lowrie, Jose Ingelsis and Avilies at SS.

[Laser Show]

No this is actually good news for the Red Sox. The Brewers won't want to pay K-Rod $15 million to close. The Red Sox could trade Scutaro and his $6 million and a prospect depending on how much the Brewers are willing to eat ($1 million a C prospect or $5 million for a B prospect) to solve their SS problems. Red Sox could then use Lowrie' date=' Jose Ingelsis and Avilies at SS.[/quote']

 

If they didn't want to pay him, why did they even offer arbitration? He wasn't getting them any draft picks back if he declined and signed elsewhere.

[Meh]

If they didn't want to pay him' date=' why did they even offer arbitration? He wasn't getting them any draft picks back if he declined and signed elsewhere.[/quote']

 

I thought he was a Type B... or even A then adjusted.

[Laser Show]

I thought he was a Type B... or even A then adjusted.

 

I think I misread something. I thought there was a clause that the Brewers would forfeit the picks if they bought out his contract. I can't seem to find details anywhere.

 

 

Ohh found it. The Brewers would still receive 2 picks, but the signing team would not have lost any picks.

 

If he does not accept arbitration, under the terms of the new CBA he will not cost the signing team a draft pick, but the Brewers will receive two supplemental picks; one immediately before the signing team’s first pick, and another sandwich pick between the first and second rounds.

[SoxSport]

After listening to Cafardo's take on day 3, it's possible nothing gets done in Dallas. Ortiz has pretty much tied up most of the available dollars for pitching--you might think he would pitch in and take one for the team here. But it's clear Papi is for Papi. On the other hand, there are still many closers available out there, and the longer the wait the cheaper the price--maybe.

[jung]

If you really want to think about how frustrating the Crawford deal must have been for JH, think about this. The Sox were over the 2011 LT budget by what looks like $4.2M. That last minute deal for Crawford cost them at least $15M against the 2011 LT cap and in fact more. So had they not signed Crawford even with all the other bogus...not workin' out signings, they would have been below the cap for 2011. Since they were below in 2009, but above for 2010, getting back to below for 2011 would have meant that if they did go over this year, their rate would have been 17.5% instead of 30% and if they went over this year and stayed over for next year they would max out next year at 30% and could look forward to the threshold going up to $198M for 2014. When you look at it that way, the Crawford signing was likely very painful to JH, certainly worse than we would have been considering. Is it any wonder that it appears to be the straw that broke the camel's back?

[SoxSport]

No this is actually good news for the Red Sox. The Brewers won't want to pay K-Rod $15 million to close. The Red Sox could trade Scutaro and his $6 million and a prospect depending on how much the Brewers are willing to eat ($1 million a C prospect or $5 million for a B prospect) to solve their SS problems. Red Sox could then use Lowrie' date=' Jose Ingelsis and Avilies at SS.[/quote']

 

The Sox have a history of not rushing to bring up their prospects as regulars. They usually don't have to, being so rich and talented. For example, they aren't about to trade Youks and bring up a kid like Middlebrook to play 3B (that's one year away). They were reluctant to bring up Kalish last year, when James was predicting big numbers for him as a Red Sox. Part of that was the RF logjam they had. And Iglesias, who looked brilliant in the field and on the bases when they brought him up for a short time last year, is still considered an offensive project--though they don't need any offense from him. So Scutaro stays, unless they trade for Hanley R. Lowrie and Aviles look like utility players, at this point. My guess is Lowrie gets traded for pitching--not Scutaro.

 

The closer situation is fluid. KRod,Madson, Bailey, Cordero, etc. Beane will have to get off Middlebrook for a Bailey deal to happen. Maybe take Reddick and Anderson. Bailey has a risky elbow, and Beane has to realize that. KRod may have to be dealt. And Boras may work something out with them for Madson. But some of the other major players may become involved, too, after all the dust has cleared with Pujols, Fielder et al.

[SoxSport]

If you really want to think about how frustrating the Crawford deal must have been for JH' date=' think about this. The Sox were over the 2011 LT budget by what looks like $4.2M. That last minute deal for Crawford cost them at least $15M against the 2011 LT cap and in fact more. So had they not signed Crawford even with all the other bogus...not workin' out signings, they would have been below the cap for 2011. Since they were below in 2009, but above for 2010, getting back to below for 2011 would have meant that if they did go over this year, their rate would have been 17.5% instead of 30% and if they went over this year and stayed over for next year they would max out next year at 30% and could look forward to the threshold going up to $198M for 2014. When you look at it that way, the Crawford signing was likely very painful to JH, certainly worse than we would have been considering. Is it any wonder that it appears to be the straw that broke the camel's back?[/quote']

 

... and that's why Epstein is now with the Cubs.

[Meh]

The closer situation is fluid. KRod' date='Madson, Bailey, Cordero,KRod, etc. Beane will have to get off Middlebrook for a Bailey deal to happen. Maybe take Reddick and Anderson. Bailey has a risky elbow, and Beane has to realize that. KRod may have to be dealt. And Boras may work something out with them for Madson. But some of the other major players may become involved, too, after all the dust has cleared with Pujols, Fielder et al.[/quote']

 

You have to understand the A's don't have to trade Bailey now... they can wait for the trade deadline, if they still don't get what they want they can wait until next off season, etc.

[redsoxrules]

He's not really a hypocrite. If he was' date=' then he'd be leaving St Louis. He ended up getting the most money and staying in one spot. It wasnt all about the money, but it surely was something about the money[/quote']

 

 

Pujols to become an Angel for MORE money

[a700hitter]

 

Pujols to become an Angel for MORE money

It's always about the money. I don't blame him or think he is a hypocrite. It's a business. It's his living, and he should maximize his earning potential. It doesn't mean that he doesn't love St.Louis or the Cardinals and their fans. If they had paid him what he was worth, he'd still be a Cardinal.

[redsoxrules]

It's always about the money. I don't blame him or think he is a hypocrite. It's a business. It's his living' date=' and he should maximize his earning potential. It doesn't mean that he doesn't love St.Louis or the Cardinals and their fans. If they had paid him what he was worth, he'd still be a Cardinal.[/quote']

 

did you not hear his interview ?

[a700hitter]

did you not hear his interview ?

What did he say?

[SoxSport]

 

Pujols to become an Angel for MORE money

 

Money makes the world go around, the world go around....

As the song says.

 

I asked a HOF pitcher about that once, and he said they're all a bunch of greedy bastards

trying to get the last dollar....or is it their agents?

[redsoxrules]

What did he say?

 

he flat out stated after the WS he dosen't play for money and that money has no effect on what team he will en up with .

[Bellhorn04]

he flat out stated after the WS he dosen't play for money and that money has no effect on what team he will en up with .

 

Sure. Just like Sabathia said several times that he wouldn't use the opt-out in his contract. We should all be laughing our asses off when we hear such things.

[a700hitter]

he flat out stated after the WS he dosen't play for money and that money has no effect on what team he will en up with .

So what? Hyperbole, in the moment after winning a Championship. Anyone who takes a statement like that seriously is a dupe.

[Meh]

Sure. Just like Sabathia said several times that he wouldn't use the opt-out in his contract. We should all be laughing our asses off when we hear such things.

 

He technically didn't.

[a700hitter]

Benny Boy is still in meeting after meeting gathering information. Good for him. He'll have a nice binder of papers and no player contracts when he returns from these meetings. Earth to Ben, gather your information before the meetings the next time and come prepared to wheel and deal. Even the Mets are actively dealing.

 

Edit: He did make a Rule 5 selection today. I am told that the entire ownership had to meet to okay the move.

[alphilip77]

Benny Boy is still in meeting after meeting gathering information. Good for him. He'll have a nice binder of papers and no player contracts when he returns from these meetings. Earth to Ben, gather your information before the meetings the next time and come prepared to wheel and deal. Even the Mets are actively dealing.

 

Edit: He did make a Rule 5 selection today. I am told that the entire ownership had to meet to okay the move.

 

No. Right now he is at the airport waiting for his 2:00 flight. Once he gets home, he'll take a nice nap, and THEN he'll organize the papers.

[a700hitter]

No. Right now he is at the airport waiting for his 2:00 flight. Once he gets home' date=' he'll take a nice nap, and THEN he'll organize the papers.[/quote']He probably has a few food menus mixed in among the papers that he'll have to remove.

 

The only deal he cut at the meetings was probably with a hooker. He probably paid too much.

[a700hitter]

I was psyched about our Rule 5 selection from the Cubs. I was looking forward to Doji's report about him, but I read that we will be trading him for an Espresso machine for the EMC Club.

[a700hitter]

Does Benny Boy deserve to be mocked at this juncture? Well, it hard to find anything positive to point to. The manager search was a fiasco. Papelbon walked on his watch. He made a very ill-considered arbitration offer to Ortiz-- a major blunder in judgment. We are waiting to see something positive from this guy. Until then, I will crack jokes, but I am hopeful he will do something positive.

 

Edit: He was also asleep at the switch not realizing that Santos was available.

[Elktonnick]

Does Benny Boy deserve to be mocked at this juncture? Well, it hard to find anything positive to point to. The manager search was a fiasco. Papelbon walked on his watch. He made a very ill-considered arbitration offer to Ortiz-- a major blunder in judgment. We are waiting to see something positive from this guy. Until then, I will crack jokes, but I am hopeful he will do something positive.

 

Edit: He was also asleep at the switch not realizing that Santos was available.

 

Several weeks ago, I posted elsewhere that Ben reminded of the story of the jackass who died of starvation because he was midway between two bales of hay and couldn't make up his mind which to eat from. At what point does delibration become indecision?