2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

Your theory is that he hated Boston... that he had such a burning love for the city of love' date=' Philadelphia? It's not like Philly is so much more convenient for him to visit his home town. What is your theory on his burning desire to get out of Boston? If he hated the manager, he's gone. If he hated the GM, he's gone. The theory that he just wanted out makes no sense to me. [b']What makes sense is that Boston didn't want to pay him the long term contract and they made it known to him early on[/b]. There is not one press report that they attempted to contact Papelbon or his agent about his future with the team. If they had any interest, they would have picked up the phone just to keep the lines of communication open.

 

As simple as that.

 

He said that He didn't want to enter into a match-up-offer-war.

 

If Boston had put the offer first, let's say something around 40/3 and an option for 15, another thing would have been.

 

Sure, if he had had two equal offers at the same time, yes, other aspects beyond the money he would have considered.

 

It is clear that Boston didn't want to pay him because they don't have enough budget to face this 2012 (clogged in the books and a lot of holes to fill) or they are thinking to move Bard to that spot or simply they have another strategy to face this 2012 offseason.

 

BL they simply didn't want him, whatever the reason was.

 

We'll see.

[Elktonnick]

Your theory is that he hated Boston... that he had such a burning love for the city of love' date=' Philadelphia? It's not like Philly is so much more convenient for him to visit his home town. What is your theory on his burning desire to get out of Boston? If he hated the manager, he's gone. If he hated the GM, he's gone. The theory that he just wanted out makes no sense to me. What makes sense is that Boston didn't want to pay him the long term contract and they made it known to him early on. There is not one press report that they attempted to contact Papelbon or his agent about his future with the team. If they had any interest, they would have picked up the phone just to keep the lines of communication open.[/quote']

 

Put yourself in Paps shoes no emotion, he didn't hesitate one second to sign with Philly. even if the sox matched the contract dollar for dollar year for year he was gone. NL vs AL, better starting rotation, knew who the manager and pitching coach were going to be. Best record in baseball, more likely to make the playoffs, no drama in clubhouse, etc. Adding it all up why would he have signed in Boston, it was the biggest no bainer in the history of earth. Communication would have been nice but in the end he was gone, and he went. End of story.

[Palodios]

No one is saying that they will spend big dough on an inferior pitcher. We are saying that it would be stupid to do so. The harsh reality is that there may be no bargains to be had.

 

I would be very happy with a contract like Scott Downs's 3/15 deal from 2010. I think that's what they're looking at-- a three year deal for an elite-elite 8th inning guy.

[a700hitter]

Put yourself in Paps shoes no emotion' date=' he didn't hesitate one second to sign with Philly. even if the sox matched the contract dollar for dollar year for year he was gone. NL vs AL, better starting rotation, knew who the manager and pitching coach were going to be. Best record in baseball, more likely to make the playoffs, no drama in clubhouse, etc. Adding it all up why would he have signed in Boston, it was the biggest no bainer in the history of earth. Communication would have been nice but in the end he was gone, and he went. End of story.[/quote']Especially when your current employer tells the press that they would understand you got an offer that you couldn't turn down. When your current employer makes it known that they don't want you, it is a no-brainer. Agreed.

[a700hitter]

I would be very happy with a contract like Scott Downs's 3/15 deal from 2010. I think that's what they're looking at-- a three year deal for an elite-elite 8th inning guy.

Maybe the Sox can pry Sean Marshall from the Cubs as the compensation for Theo.

[example1]

Also' date=' getting Madson on their own terms is not what i'm getting at. I'm saying that they will be able to get him (or another closer) at market value instead of having to overpay because the availability is much less than the demand.[/quote']

 

Although I still think Bard deserves the shot at closer, I think Madson would be a great option for this team. If they can wait it out and get him for 3/30 or something along those lines then that would be fine and wouldn't represent a lost opportunity vis a vis Papelbon.

 

People like to say he's a step down from Papelbon, which is true. However, he's not a bad pitcher by any stretch and certainly not a huge step down from Papelbon. Over the past two seasons Madson has a better ERA, ERA+, WHIP, HR/9, BB/9 and K/BB ratio. Papelbon pitched in a tougher league and division.

 

He was the Phillies best reliever for two straight seasons and has a solid playoff history. That's not something to be sneezed at.

[iortiz]

Although I still think Bard deserves the shot at closer, I think Madson would be a great option for this team. If they can wait it out and get him for 3/30 or something along those lines then that would be fine and wouldn't represent a lost opportunity vis a vis Papelbon.

 

People like to say he's a step down from Papelbon, which is true. However, he's not a bad pitcher by any stretch and certainly not a huge step down from Papelbon. Over the past two seasons Madson has a better ERA, ERA+, WHIP, HR/9, BB/9 and K/BB ratio. Papelbon pitched in a tougher league and division.

 

He was the Phillies best reliever for two straight seasons and has a solid playoff history. That's not something to be sneezed at.

IYO, Why did Philly give to Pap that kind of contract?, hell, they already had the right piece, didn't they?, and like some people around here say, considerable cheaper (30/3), right?. That takes me to the next question, IYO, How much money was Madson asking to Philly, that made 'em turn around so quick and sign Pap? IYO, How much is he asking in the neighborhood?

 

Let's say that he is asking your 30/3; plus an option of +-10. (still, if this were the case, I wouldn't get it, why the hell wouldn't Philly take this deal, I would commence to think that he was asking something more substantial, maybe +-10 M more, I'm not sure...)

 

If true^, Let's go to the scenarios...

 

If after 3 Y, they don't make valid the option, what would be the sign? My guess, he would've shitted the bed. If true, you would be wasting your 30 M and not saving 20 M, otherwise, you would be giving him something around Pap's contract, considering the option and maybe one more year. If this were the case I would like to see Pap's numbers at that time. IMO Pap would be likely making better numbers, sure at an arguably inferior division.

 

As a fan, sure, bring Madson, keep spending that way, why not. As the owner, I'm not sure this is a good idea. This wouldn't be consistent regarding on Paps departure.

[Palodios]

Let's say that he is asking your 30/3; plus an option of +-10. (still' date=' if this were the case, I wouldn't get it, why the hell wouldn't Philly take this deal, I would commence to think that he was asking something more substantial, maybe +-10 M more, I'm not sure...)[/quote']

 

That's the thing... if the Red Sox give Madson the 4th year, it is a huge mistake. They simply cannot give him the 4th year without it being a bad deal. But if they pay 3/30 or 2/24(no option), they are guaranteeing him HALF of what Papelbon is receiving right out of the gate, and maybe less if Papelbon's option vests. Two Madsons is definitely worth more than the price of one Papelbon.

[Elktonnick]

Especially when your current employer tells the press that they would understand you got an offer that you couldn't turn down. When your current employer makes it known that they don't want you' date=' it is a no-brainer. Agreed.[/quote']

That's your spin. Mine is Philly was a better fit regardless all things being equal. Dollar for Dollar year for year. Paps was never coming back and the Sox recognized that.

[a700hitter]

IYO' date=' [b']Why did Philly give to Pap that kind of contract?, hell, they already had the right piece, didn't they?, and like some people around here say, considerable cheaper (30/3), right?. [/b]That takes me to the next question, IYO, How much money was Madson asking to Philly, that made 'em turn around so quick and sign Pap? IYO, How much is he asking in the neighborhood?

 

Let's say that he is asking your 30/3; plus an option of +-10. (still, if this were the case, I wouldn't get it, why the hell wouldn't Philly take this deal, I would commence to think that he was asking something more substantial, maybe +-10 M more, I'm not sure...)

 

If true^, Let's go to the scenarios...

 

If after 3 Y, they don't make valid the option, what would be the sign? My guess, he would've shitted the bed. If true, you would be wasting your 30 M and not saving 20 M, otherwise, you would be giving him something around Pap's contract, considering the option and maybe one more year. If this were the case I would like to see Pap's numbers at that time. IMO Pap would be likely making better numbers, sure at an arguably inferior division.

 

As a fan, sure, bring Madson, keep spending that way, why not. As the owner, I'm not sure this is a good idea. This wouldn't be consistent regarding on Paps departure.

If we sign Madson for a large contract, in order to pat ourselves on the back we would also have to assume that the Phillies are stupid. They are not.

[a700hitter]

That's your spin. Mine is Philly was a better fit regardless all things being equal. Dollar for Dollar year for year. Paps was never coming back and the Sox recognized that.

Under your theory, I guess the Red Sox must have read paps mind and concluded that he wasn't coming back and that's why they never made an attempt to contact him. Certainly Pap would not tell them that he wasn't coming back. That would not be smart from a negotiations standpoint. Even if he had no intentions of signing with the Sox, he would never tell them, because he would use them to help his market value. The yanks and Sox have been played in this manner by numerous agents. BC was quoted in the paper more or less telling him to take an offer if he got it. It doesn't sound like they had any interest in keeping him. Papelbon didn't have to read any minds. Their actions (or inaction) spoke volumes.

[Elktonnick]

Under your theory' date=' I guess the Red Sox must have read paps mind and concluded that he wasn't coming back and that's why they never made an attempt to contact him. Certainly Pap would not tell them that he wasn't coming back. That would not be smart from a negotiations standpoint. Even if he had no intentions of signing with the Sox, he would never tell them, because he would use them to help his market value. The yanks and Sox have been played in this manner by numerous agents. BC was quoted in the paper more or less telling him to take an offer if he got it. It doesn't sound like they had any interest in keeping him. Papelbon didn't have to read any minds. Their actions (or inaction) spoke volumes.[/quote']

 

Paps would only come back if the sox exceeded the price. Your theory was if they just had talked to him first and told him how much they "loved" him, horse hockey. When you negotiate you get of sense where the other party is at. They sox knew just like everyone knew Paps wasn't going to give the sox any discount for the priveledge of playing here. No one negotiates in the papers. In the end Paplebon did just what Cliff Lee did. The Phillies when you add it all up were the better fit, dollar for dollar year for year.

 

You can't didspute these facts: he knew who the manager and piching coach were going to be. He knew the NL lineups are easier to pitch to then AL lineups. He has a better starting rotation in Philly then Boston. The Phillies are more likely than Boston to go to the playoffs. NL hitters for the most part haven't seen Paps as much so he is more likely to have the advantage there. Less drama in the clubhouse. Citizen's bank park facilities are newer and more comfortable than Fenway. All these intangible are important. You can't dismiss them by simply saying if only they talked to him first.

[mvp 78]

The manager situation had zero to do with it. That myth needs to just go away. Paps doesn't have to deal with a manager. He sits in the bullpen until the 6th or 7th when he'll start stretching. If he's called on, he'll warm up and take the ball from the manager. His only interaction is "go get 'em" from the manager. Why would he care who the manager is? He's a closer and is in his own little world.

[FredLynn]

That's the thing... if the Red Sox give Madson the 4th year' date=' it is a huge mistake. They simply cannot give him the 4th year without it being a bad deal. But if they pay 3/30 or 2/24(no option), they are guaranteeing him HALF of what Papelbon is receiving right out of the gate, and maybe less if Papelbon's option vests. Two Madsons is definitely worth more than the price of one Papelbon.[/quote']

 

Bard deserves the chance to close. For nearly the entire year he was much better than Papelbon-until he got burned out from overuse. Madson should be obtained ONLY if he is willing to accept the setup role. And as such, I don't think he is worth 3/30. Everyone knows that relief pitchers are a crapshoot. I save the money for next year when we will be in a much better position to make a run for a ring.

[FredLynn]

The manager situation had zero to do with it. That myth needs to just go away. Paps doesn't have to deal with a manager. He sits in the bullpen until the 6th or 7th when he'll start stretching. If he's called on' date=' he'll warm up and take the ball from the manager. His only interaction is "go get 'em" from the manager. Why would he care who the manager is? He's a closer and is in his own little world.[/quote']

 

Paps could have been the bench coach and he would still be "in his own little world". He is a couple of sandwiches short of a full picnic.

[User Name]

Bard deserves the chance to close. For nearly the entire year he was much better than Papelbon-until he got burned out from overuse. Madson should be obtained ONLY if he is willing to accept the setup role. And as such' date=' I don't think he is worth 3/30. [b']Everyone knows that relief pitchers are a crapshoot. [/b]I save the money for next year when we will be in a much better position to make a run for a ring.

 

Exactly. Yet some still can't accept the fact that the Sox refused to make what basically amounts to a 64 million dollar commitment to Papelbon.

 

And bringing up logic or the failure of prior contracts (and there are many failures) is irrelevant because Papelbon is the relief "ace" and he was failure proof.

 

What a load of horseshit.

[User Name]

That's your spin. Mine is Philly was a better fit regardless all things being equal. Dollar for Dollar year for year. Paps was never coming back and the Sox recognized that.

 

Things were never equal though. The Red Sox were never going to match Philly dollar for dollar anyway. Those who are spinning the "If only the Sox would have talked to him first" machine" are in the middle of some wishful thinking.

[a700hitter]

Paps could have been the bench coach and he would still be "in his own little world". He is a couple of sandwiches short of a full picnic.

Don't assume that the guy is dumb because he comes from Louisiana. People made the same unfair assumption about Terry Bradshaw. Papelbon doesn't come from an uneducated family. Quite the opposite.

[Elktonnick]

The manager situation had zero to do with it. That myth needs to just go away. Paps doesn't have to deal with a manager. He sits in the bullpen until the 6th or 7th when he'll start stretching. If he's called on' date=' he'll warm up and take the ball from the manager. His only interaction is "go get 'em" from the manager. Why would he care who the manager is? He's a closer and is in his own little world.[/quote']

 

That's BS! He may have been in his own world becuase while I agree with Pumpsie that Pas is one order of fries short of a happy meal the whole situation was a mess. Of course it had an impact just one more factor to add to the equation. Ball players live with club for six months. It was clear from his comments all year long he was looking to move on if the money was right. The money was right. The Philly situation was and is better than Boston's and in the words of Hawk Harrelsaon" he gone". He'd stay only if the sox were going to over pay. And they weren't and didn't.

[a700hitter]

Paps would only come back if the sox exceeded the price. Your theory was if they just had talked to him first and told him how much they "loved" him, horse hockey. When you negotiate you get of sense where the other party is at. They sox knew just like everyone knew Paps wasn't going to give the sox any discount for the priveledge of playing here. No one negotiates in the papers. In the end Paplebon did just what Cliff Lee did. The Phillies when you add it all up were the better fit, dollar for dollar year for year.

 

You can't didspute these facts: he knew who the manager and piching coach were going to be. He knew the NL lineups are easier to pitch to then AL lineups. He has a better starting rotation in Philly then Boston. The Phillies are more likely than Boston to go to the playoffs. NL hitters for the most part haven't seen Paps as much so he is more likely to have the advantage there. Less drama in the clubhouse. Citizen's bank park facilities are newer and more comfortable than Fenway. All these intangible are important. You can't dismiss them by simply saying if only they talked to him first.

I agree. Papelbon would have stayed if the Sox paid his price. He knew that they would not give him his price, so he left. Papelbon wanted his price and the Sox didn't want to pay him his FMV. It's as simple as that.

[Elktonnick]

Things were never equal though. The Red Sox were never going to match Philly dollar for dollar anyway. Those who are spinning the "If only the Sox would have talked to him first" machine" are in the middle of some wishful thinking.

 

I agree with you ( for the second time). I don't know if Paps is bright or not. He is a free spirit and a flake. He gives the impression of being someone who speaks withot thinking, though. In hius way he reminds me of Bill Lee although not as erudite.

[a700hitter]

I agree with you ( for the second time). I don't know if Paps is bright or not. He is a free spirit and a flake. He gives the impression of being someone who speaks withot thinking' date=' though. In hius way he reminds me of Bill Lee although not as erudite.[/quote']Bill Lee is flat out crazy.

[Elktonnick]

I agree. Papelbon would have stayed if the Sox paid his price. He knew that they would not give him his price' date=' so he left. Papelbon wanted his price and the Sox didn't want to pay him his FMV. It's as simple as that.[/quote']

 

Perhaps, but his price was always more than he was worth except to the Phillies who many here believe is too much.

[Elktonnick]

Bill Lee is flat out crazy.

 

Just becuase he is nuts doesn't mean he is stupid. The psych ward is full of very bright people.

[a700hitter]

Just becuase he is nuts doesn't mean he is stupid. The psych ward is full of very bright people.

Agreed. I wasn't saying he was stupid. I love Lee. He was a Yankee killer. I just wish that he had watched his mouth a little and didn't taunt Zim so much. He got Zim to hate him so much that even Yaz's lobbying to get Lee out of the doghouse didn't work. Yaz begged Zim to pitch Lee against the Yanks in'78 during the Boston Massacre. Zim refused Yaz and pitched some kid Sprowl from AAA. The kid s*** the bed right out of the gate.

[Elktonnick]

agreed

[a700hitter]

Perhaps' date=' but his price was always more than he was worth except to the Phillies who many here believe is too much.[/quote']If a willing buyer purchases something from a willing seller, that is the best evidence of FMV. No one had a gun to the heads of Papelbon or the Phillies, so his contract is his value. I am not willing to conclude that the Phillies are a stupid organization, especially since they have had a better team than the Sox the last few seasons.

[a700hitter]

Red Sox To Meet With Agent For Wilson And Oswalt

By Mike Axisa [December 3 at 9:53am CST]

 

The Red Sox will meet with the agent for C.J. Wilson and Roy Oswalt at the winter meetings in Dallas next week, reports Michael Silverman of The Boston Herald (on Twitter). Both pitchers are represented by Bob Garber.

 

Most of the recent reports involving the Red Sox have focused on their now completed managerial search or their still ongoing closer search, but the club is also looking to solidify its starting staff. Clay Buchholz will return from injury to join Josh Beckett and Jon Lester atop the rotation, but both Daisuke Matsuzaka and John Lackey are out following Tommy John surgery. Alfredo Aceves figures to be given a chance to start, but Boston still needs to add depth beyond those four.

 

The Rangers, Nationals, and Marlins are said to be pursuing Wilson, who is looking for something close to a six-year deal worth $120MM. The Rockies had shown the most interest in Oswalt so far this offseason, but they've recently dropped out of the running.

[Elktonnick]

If a willing buyer purchases something from a willing seller' date=' that is the best evidence of FMV. No one had a gun to the heads of Papelbon or the Phillies, so his contract is his value. I am not willing to conclude that the Phillies are a stupid organization, especially since they have had a better team than the Sox the last few seasons.[/quote']

 

Never said they were stupid. I just maintain that Paps never was going to sign with the Red Sox when all the factors were coinsidered

[jacksonianmarch]

Madson is not signed. And even if he was signed' date=' it all depends on the length/money of the contract. So far this is just speculation.[/quote']

 

Absolutely, and if the sox piece together a pen on a bunch of 1 and 2 yr deals then they stuck to their guns and the Paps move was understandable. But if they go out and sign a closer for 3+ yrs at $10+ mil per year then they are fools