2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[example1]

Theo's record is certainly not without blemish. The grade that I gave him of B minus is higher than what others have given him. I don't see how that is over the top. What's over the top is how you take any criticism of Theo so personally.

 

It's not really over the top. It's a surprising grade given how much focus you have had on the poor performance. I'm with ORS, it's a solid B, likely to make its way into the A- category when compared with every other GM out there. Finances are only part of the story, as there is no doubt that Theo did many things right. He did well despite his struggles with FA, which would have done lesser GMs in.

 

I don't take it personally. He's gone, time to move on. (hence my next post)...

[a700hitter]

I don't think anyone who criticizes him hates him. I've just read you in particular being critical for the past 7 years' date=' and I think that you're consistently over the top. You and I know that if you had your way most of the Sox best homegrown players would have been dealt for players who are either not in the league anymore, or who would have no place on the current team.[/quote']In the 2006 and 2010 off seasons , I said very favorable things about Theo. There have been other times when I have expressed approval of what he has done. That doesn't count?

 

When you read my posts, you just see red and lose all perspective. You admitted your knee jerk reaction to my posts the other day when I called you on a pointless 3 part response to one of my posts. I still don't know what your disagreement was in that post.

 

Theo is gone. It doesn't matter whether he got fired or walked. He s*** the bed this season and left us with a boat load of bad contracts and no major league ready minor league talent. He's moved on from the Red Sox. It's time you move on from Theo. His final note for the Sox was a bad one.

[example1]

Cuban CF Yoenis Cespedes is getting some play at Soxprospects, and rightly so.

 

Here's a kind of funny scouting video

 

and Kevin Goldstein's article at BP:

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15469

 

This guy could be a relatively affordable gamble on a solid talent. I hope they are aggressive. Gammons (grain of salt please) seems to think they will be.

 

EDIT: Goldstein's article is hilarious, BTW.

[Palodios]

When you read my posts' date=' you just see red and lose all perspective. [/quote']

 

In all fairness, 90% of what you say is red.

[a700hitter]

It's not really over the top. It's a surprising grade given how much focus you have had on the poor performance. I'm with ORS, it's a solid B, likely to make its way into the A- category when compared with every other GM out there. Finances are only part of the story, as there is no doubt that Theo did many things right. He did well despite his struggles with FA, which would have done lesser GMs in.

 

I don't take it personally. He's gone, time to move on. (hence my next post)...

People like to focus on the bad stuff. In a performance evaluation, you can tell people 9 good things and 1 negative thing, and they always focus on the negative thing. I have criticized Theo without hesitation, but I have acknowledged his good points as well, hence a balanced grade of B minus.

 

I will criticize Ben without hesitation too, but I have nothing against him either. So far, he's doing a great job.

[jung]

I actually think there are two eras of within Theo's time here that differ by pretty wide margins and I don't think Theo is himself responsible for that. I think that there was more focus on winning championships until the Sox won it a second time in 2007. After 2007 there was much more focus on expanding the Fenway Sports Enterprises and the Sox as a brand as a marketing tool and as a revenue machine.

 

Theo did reasonably well in the early part of his stay here and was particularly outstanding with regard to rebuilding the Sox farm system. I would give him a B+ for that period.

 

However from 2008 till today the focus on the brand and marketing appears to have translated into less effort in maintaining the farm system and more on big name free agents. Here Theo has simply not done well. Even his FA successes have been with smaller less PR intense deals. A fair number of those have worked out well, like Ortiz and more recently Aceves and now Scuts. However the big name FA signings of the past few years have all been busts really. Dice-K , Jenks and Lackey are horrible deals. Lackey should never have been brought here. The same can be said for Jenks and the whole screwy PR driven mess that is the Dice-K deal is exhibit A for the way the Sox have viewed FA signings through the prism of marketing. Drew was a bust. Crawford is a horrible deal no matter how you cut it. There is not a single aspect of the Crawford deal that is redeeming and that would be true regardless of how he plays. AGons has had a great year but when you look at how signing AGons effected the direction the Sox had to take with regard to other potential opportunities, I have a hard time calling that deal a success particularly in light of what I think was a propensity for Theo to plan based around getting AGons here. I think Theo cut off other opportunities to reshape the team while they were stillborn. Didn't the AGons deal feel like a forgone conclusion when it finally happened? Much like the Drew deal I think the AGons deal was another that Theo fell in love with. I am not so sure that Theo falls in love with the actual player as much as he falls in love with a particular deal.

 

Now look at where we are. We are stuck with a bunch of everyday player big money contracts one or two good, many bad....recent pitching FA deals that are all bad, with the exception of Aceves.....a depleted farm system with no pitchers really ready to help fill the gap and little money to use in the FA market. We may well be stuck saying goodbye to Ortiz without really being able to replace his bat because we need his money to sign pitchers. So for years 2008-2011 the best grade I can give Theo is a D. The only reason I am not giving him an F is because I think where we are today is a failure of the organization in total including Theo and an F might say that this all should be put at Theo's doorstep.

 

So my split grade for Theo is a B+ for the first semester followed by a D for the second.

[iortiz]

2003-2008 (6 years): 4 trips to the ALCS, 2 WS titles.....that's an A.

2009-2011 (3 years): 1 playoff appearance.....a D (a C in a smaller market).

Overall: with proper weighting (6 years vs 3), that's a B.

 

However, this discussion of grading made me think of a common concept used in subjective grading, which is what this is, that really applies here. Grading on a curve. Given the nature of the league, there are very good teams, good teams, mediocre teams, bad teams, and very bad teams (A, B, C, D, F) every year....or over a span of years. And, like in curved grading, I think it only fitting to be graded against your peers.....not absolute grading, which is graded against a perfect ideal, which doesn't exist in this population (MLB GM's).

 

On a curve, 10% of the "class" should get an A, 20% a B, and the remaining 70% a C or lower. B or higher means he's been one of the top 9 GM's in the league over his tenure. I can't think of 9 rock solid cases to move him into the lower 70%. Can you?

 

He's easily a B, with a strong case for an A, IMO. I think the disappointment of the last two years is eclipsing the success he had here. Only one other team has multiple titles over that timeframe (STL), but with more years missing the playoffs, and not as many trips to the LCS. Nobody has been the LCS as often. This stuff needs to stop being overlooked.

 

Well, maybe I'm strict about this

 

We don't grade with letters around here but with numbers (scale from 0-10) and depends on the degree and school you are attending to in order to pass a course. I'd say that the average grade in order to pass in Mexico is 7/10 at Collage level (Think abut 10 questions/problems and 7 answered well).

 

Said that, my grades for Epstein would be:

 

2003-2008, 9.5 (Very Good) Thanks Theo.

2009-2011, 6 (Failure) Cya Theo.

Overall, 7.5 (Just above average) Move on since tendency.

 

That's what I meant, considering the achievements vs resources available and expectations through those periods. As I said, the last three years mark a clear tendency to me in order to look other horizons for this team.

 

BTW One of the richest Latin American soccer teams (Club America from Mexico, which has plenty resources to sign the best players) passed similar issues like the Red Sox. Guess who was announced out just few minutes ago after similar records ( do not make the POs), Michel Bauer who is the GM of that club.

[iortiz]

In all fairness' date=' 90% of what you say is red. [/quote']

 

I'd say objective

[VA Sox Fan]

I'd say objective

 

I'd say negative:lol:

[a700hitter]

I'd say negative:lol:

To be positive about the team after 2011 would constitute denial. Last off season, I was very positive about Theo and the organization. Memories are short.

[Laser Show]

To be positive about the team after 2011 would constitute denial. Last off season' date=' I was very positive about Theo and the organization. Memories are short.[/quote']

 

It's easy to see that awful April and September and just give the team an F. But during those middle 4 months, we were absolutely the best team in baseball, by a mile. We didn't even have 4 of our best players, Drew, Crawford, Buchholz, and Youkilis, either due to injury or complete ineffectiveness.

 

We won 90 games and finished the the 8th best record in baseball, even after the April and September stretches where we went a combined 10-31. Aside from those woeful 41 games, we went 80-41 which would've translated into roughly a 107-55 record.

 

Even though we collapsed, I would consider this season a success. We were on pace for the best record in baseball up until the last month, don't blow up a team because of a meltdown.

 

After giving it some thought, I have a few ideas:

 

Trade Ellsbury for a SP.

Let Ortiz, Tek, and Wakefield walk.

Try to pry Jeff Francoeur from KC. He was a 20/20 guy last year, has a cannon in RF, and is just now entering his prime. He'll also be a lot cheaper than Cuddyer or Beltran and hits from the right side.

Make Kalish our every day CF. This could mean packaging Reddick in the deal for a SP or for Francoeur.

Convert Aceves into a starter.

Re-sign Papelbon.

 

Our offense suffers a bit, but that wasn't our problem.

C- Salty / Lavarnway

1B- Gonzo

2B- Pedroia

SS- Scutaro

3B- Youk

LF- Crawford

CF- Kalish

RF- Francoeur

DH- Lavarnway

 

SP- Lester

SP- Beckett

SP- *Return from Ellsbury

SP- Buchholz

SP- Aceves

[Palodios]

Laser show-- just a heads-up. Francouer re-upped with the Royals on a very team friendly deal. He's been very vocal about wanting to stay there, and they were pretty clear that they wanted to keep him.

[User Name]

Yeah, Francoeur is probably a pipe dream. Carlos Quentin maybe?

[Nirvana]

Laser Show you dont go around trading your 28 year old MVP caliber CF for a SP.

[User Name]

If Seattle offers Felix i fly Ellsbury to Seattle myself. Out of my own pocket.

[Laser Show]

Laser show-- just a heads-up. Francouer re-upped with the Royals on a very team friendly deal. He's been very vocal about wanting to stay there' date=' and they were pretty clear that they wanted to keep him.[/quote']

 

Yeah' date=' Francoeur is probably a pipe dream. Carlos Quentin maybe?[/quote']

 

I was unaware about the Francoeur situation. That sucks because he fits our needs almost perfectly and I didn't realize he and KC had that sort of relationship.

 

I'm not too keen on Quentin. He does provide a lot of RH pop, but he hasn't ever played more than 131 games.

 

Ellsbury just seems like such a good trade chip right now, that we'd be foolish to ever think his value will ever be this high again. What about moving Crawford to RF, Kalish to CF, and finding a LF? Our OF is very fluid, and I think they can all play almost anywhere.

[Laser Show]

Laser Show you dont go around trading your 28 year old MVP caliber CF for a SP.

 

You do when you realize you only have him for 2 more years, and it's very very unlikely he ever puts up numbers close to 2011 again.

[User Name]

I don't think Crawford's arm would play in RF, so maybe Crawford to CF and Kalish to RF?

 

The Crawford signing puzzles me now more than ever.

[Laser Show]

I don't think Crawford's arm would play in RF, so maybe Crawford to CF and Kalish to RF?

 

The Crawford signing puzzles me now more than ever.

 

I still contend that it was a desperation move.

[Nirvana]

If Seattle offers Felix i fly Ellsbury to Seattle myself. Out of my own pocket.

 

Thats unrealistic.

 

Re-sign Pap and Papi.

 

Get Sizemore. A good choice for RF, and hes cheap.

 

Bring in a complementing piece for the bullpen, or even two. Wood, Broxton (off of surgery, he would be a steal if the Soz were willing to take the risk), or Saito.

 

Go in hard for Buerle. If we dont get him at least it cost whoever gets him (most likely the Yanks ATM), a few Million more.

 

We should also make a bid for Hiroki Kuroda

[Laser Show]

I know I will get crucified for even suggesting this, but here goes.

 

What about bringing back Drew on a 1 year, incentive laden contract, a la Adrian Beltre?

[User Name]

Thats unrealistic.

 

Re-sign Pap and Papi.

 

Get Sizemore. A good choice for RF, and hes cheap.

 

Bring in a complementing piece for the bullpen, or even two. Wood, Broxton (off of surgery, he would be a steal if the Soz were willing to take the risk), or Saito.

 

Go in hard for Buerle. If we dont get him at least it cost whoever gets him (most likely the Yanks ATM), a few Million more.

 

We should also make a bid for Hiroki Kuroda

 

I was making a point. You said :"You don't trade your CF MVP candidate for a SP" so i provided you with a SP who has higher value than Ellsbury.

 

I also don't understand how a guy with chronic knee problems and who has barely played the last couple of years, and can't hit lefties to boot is the solution to RF. Doesn't make sense. Reddick outproduced what Sizemore has done over the last three years. Also, the sox need a RH OF.

 

Kuroda won't leave LA.

 

The Red Sox have around 24 million to play with in the offseason, so overpaying for Buehrle (who has expressed his interest in staying in Chicago anyway) doesn't seem like a viable possibility.

 

Wood said "Cubs or bust" before the offseason started.

 

Broxton could be a huge addition.

[Laser Show]

Thats unrealistic.

 

Re-sign Pap and Papi. Ortiz hurts us over the course of the season. Making Gonzo play RF? Stupid move. Ortiz doesn't allow the every day fielders to get a break.

 

Get Sizemore. A good choice for RF, and hes cheap. He is yet another LH bat. We need a RH OF

 

Bring in a complementing piece for the bullpen, or even two. Wood, Broxton (off of surgery, he would be a steal if the Soz were willing to take the risk), or Saito. Wood is going back to Chicago or retiring. Broxton is a HUGE risk, but might be worth it.

 

Go in hard for Buerle. If we dont get him at least it cost whoever gets him (most likely the Yanks ATM), a few Million more. Buehrle will probably go back to Chicago. He's gonna get $14M per, and I think that's a little out of our price range. I would love to have him though.

 

We should also make a bid for Hiroki Kuroda I'm iffy on this. He's older, and already spurned us once, I think.

[Nirvana]

I know I will get crucified for even suggesting this, but here goes.

 

What about bringing back Drew on a 1 year, incentive laden contract, a la Adrian Beltre?

 

No. Kalish and Reddick are both better options why waste more money on Drew who had a horrific season last year when you have 2 players ready to take the spot in RF.

 

@ LS, Ortiz would be a DH. Gonzo would play 1B. How does he hurt us over the course of the season?

 

People can always change their minds, just because he says hes going to Chicago or retiring doesnt means thats how things are going to play out. Broxton is a cheap risk, therefore worth it.

 

Kuroda is an inning eating horse with a solid era.

[Palodios]

Thats unrealistic.

 

Re-sign Pap and Papi.

 

Get Sizemore. A good choice for RF, and hes cheap.

 

Bring in a complementing piece for the bullpen, or even two. Wood, Broxton (off of surgery, he would be a steal if the Soz were willing to take the risk), or Saito.

 

Go in hard for Buerle. If we dont get him at least it cost whoever gets him (most likely the Yanks ATM), a few Million more.

 

We should also make a bid for Hiroki Kuroda

 

I disagree with all of this except Buerhle. You're suggesting we re-sign our expensive free agents that have already peaked, pick up Sizemore who is yet another broken LHH RF, those relievers are big names who will get destroyed in the AL East, and Kuroda refused to leave the Dodgers last year.

[Palodios]

I know I will get crucified for even suggesting this, but here goes.

 

What about bringing back Drew on a 1 year, incentive laden contract, a la Adrian Beltre?

 

:lol::lol:

[Laser Show]

No. Kalish and Reddick are both better options why waste more money on Drew who had a horrific season last year when you have 2 players ready to take the spot in RF.

 

They can't be better options when they're both unproven. We have no idea what to realistically expect from either. We know we'd prob get 110 solid games from Drew.

[User Name]

They can't be better options when they're both unproven. We have no idea what to realistically expect from either. We know we'd prob get 110 solid games from Drew.

 

They're better options than Sizemore. At least Reddick is healthy.

[Laser Show]

They're better options than Sizemore. At least Reddick is healthy.

 

I meant Drew. I agree they're better options than Sizemore.

[User Name]

I meant Drew. I agree they're better options than Sizemore.

 

That goes for Drew, too. He's probably going to retire anyways.