2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[jung]

I have seen a few of these discussions comparing the 3-0 Yanks ALCS lead before losing 4 straight to the Sox and the September crash of the 2011 Sox. There is no comparing these two events as they are not even in the same categories of event.

 

While the Yanks did in some sense succumb to growing pressure as the Sox came on in that series in truth that series was as much about the Sox building and growing in confidence one game at a time almost like the sand running out of the Yanks hourglass into the Sox hourglass. Saying the Yanks choked diminishes what the Sox were able to achieve over that seven game stretch.

 

The 2011 Sox did not choke at all. You might make an argument that Crawford had a season long choke but that is it. With the exception of a few players the 2011 Sox simply stopped playing. For the most part it was a team made up out of too many players that had already made their money or had long term big money contracts and low scores for personal integrity. What we saw from the 2011 Sox was as close to a work stoppage as you are ever going to see from a professional baseball team. It is the worst indictment of the current MLB CBA and the damage it can effect via a major market team with the resources of the Red Sox making free agent signings for the most part reliant on pure numbers based player evaluation matrices without ever taking the time to take a peak under the player's hood to see if there is an actual heart beating there. The current CBA has always been a ticking time bomb and this was the year it finally went off.

 

The point being that there is no comparison between the aforementioned Yanks-Sox Championship Series and the 2011 Sox demise. The two things are not even the same type of event.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Losing in the postseason > failing to make the playoffs in september

[FredLynn]

Losing in the postseason > failing to make the playoffs in september>committing the most monumental choke job in history

 

Fixed.

[Derach]

I'd be happy if just ONE person in this organization just grew a set and claimed some responsibility and said something passionately that would lead us to believe the team can play with a little more intensity next year.

 

It's not going to happen with just a free agent signing, a cut, a hiring or a firing ... it has to exude as an attitude from SOMEONE on or part of the team.

 

I guess that means LEADERSHIP

[iortiz]

I'd be happy if just ONE person in this organization just grew a set and claimed some responsibility and said something passionately that would lead us to believe the team can play with a little more intensity next year.

 

It's not going to happen with just a free agent signing, a cut, a hiring or a firing ... it has to exude as an attitude from SOMEONE on or part of the team.

 

I guess that means LEADERSHIP

 

Exactly. As I said, this is a must in our new GM's profile and he has to show it in all aspects.

[ipot]

Fixed.

 

LOL, pumps. But it's OUR choke job. No one will take it away from us. Let us wear it with pre-2004 pride!

[ipot]

New here, folks to some of you, but have any of you read Gordon Edes piece? Seems that he is either on the sauce or has been afflicted by early onset dementia:

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7099013/sounds-crazy-red-sox-saved

 

He has truly lost it, predicting nothing short of a WS ring next year. It's not the boldness of the prediction, but his actual 10 point analysis of how this will be achieved.

[FredLynn]

New here, folks to some of you, but have any of you read Gordon Edes piece? Seems that he is either on the sauce or has been afflicted by early onset dementia:

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7099013/sounds-crazy-red-sox-saved

 

He has truly lost it, predicting nothing short of a WS ring next year. It's not the boldness of the prediction, but his actual 10 point analysis of how this will be achieved.

 

Edes is not of this world.

[seabeachfred]

I'd be happy if just ONE person in this organization just grew a set and claimed some responsibility and said something passionately that would lead us to believe the team can play with a little more intensity next year.

 

It's not going to happen with just a free agent signing, a cut, a hiring or a firing ... it has to exude as an attitude from SOMEONE on or part of the team.

 

I guess that means LEADERSHIP

 

Derach, there's that old saying that when talking about a baseball team it all starts at the top. We now know that Francona was out of sorts this season with all that information that is coming out now. Even with that, he was most likely the wrong person for this team. We need a stronger leader in the dugout, one that will demand accountablity and a top notch effort. We got none of that this season except for two long winning streaks. The team seemed to just quit, just lie down and die in September and another Terry type is just what we don't need. It's bad enough that we replaced Epstein with what appears to be an Epstein lite, but we don't need to compound that misdemeanor with a felony in the person of another Francona. Maybe finally hard ass Lucchino will once again become a force in the front office. We can sure use some tough leadership, not to mention a new medical staff and a stronger commitment from the players.

[seabeachfred]

New here, folks to some of you, but have any of you read Gordon Edes piece? Seems that he is either on the sauce or has been afflicted by early onset dementia:

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7099013/sounds-crazy-red-sox-saved

 

He has truly lost it, predicting nothing short of a WS ring next year. It's not the boldness of the prediction, but his actual 10 point analysis of how this will be achieved.

 

IPOT, living in Southern California, I got to read and gag on Gordon Edes for years when he was covering the Dodgers in the 80's. You know what a rumpswab is? Edes is proof personified of that. He was the biggest ball washer in LA and if Peter O'Malley or Tom LaSorda stopped short he would have winded half way up his rectum. The guy is a total brown nose and apologist for any team he covers. He really has no credibility at all. Oh yes, if something earth shaking developed his prediction could come though, but for him not to see all the rot that has festooned itself on the Red Sox and the total lack of leadership, accountability and mental toughness, it is just demonstrates that after over two decades of coverning teams he hasn't learned a damn thing.

[Elktonnick]

Derach' date=' there's that old saying that when talking about a baseball team it all starts at the top. We now know that Francona was out of sorts this season with all that information that is coming out now. Even with that, he was most likely the wrong person for this team. We need a stronger leader in the dugout, one that will demand accountablity and a top notch effort. We got none of that this season except for two long winning streaks. The team seemed to just quit, just lie down and die in September and another Terry type is just what we don't need. It's bad enough that we replaced Epstein with what appears to be an Epstein lite, but we don't need to compound that misdemeanor with a felony in the person of another Francona. Maybe finally hard ass Lucchino will once again become a force in the front office. We can sure use some tough leadership, not to mention a new medical staff and a stronger commitment from the players.[/quote']

 

One of the under reported weaknesses of the Red Sox organization is their professional scouting. Their scouting at the amateur level seems competent but somebody is not doing their due diligence at the pro level. , IMHO

[a700hitter]

One of the under reported weaknesses of the Red Sox organization is their professional scouting. Their scouting at the amateur level seems competent but somebody is not doing their due diligence at the pro level. ' date=' IMHO[/quote']The organization had a lot of deficiencies in the last 3-4 years. That is the reason why they let Theo walk.

[ipot]

IPOT' date=' living in Southern California, I got to read and gag on Gordon Edes for years when he was covering the Dodgers in the 80's. You know what a rumpswab is? Edes is proof personified of that. He was the biggest ball washer in LA and if Peter O'Malley or Tom LaSorda stopped short he would have winded half way up his rectum. The guy is a total brown nose and apologist for any team he covers. He really has no credibility at all. Oh yes, if something earth shaking developed his prediction could come though, but for him not to see all the rot that has festooned itself on the Red Sox and the total lack of leadership, accountability and mental toughness, it is just demonstrates that after over two decades of coverning teams he hasn't learned a damn thing.[/quote']

 

I only picked up on Edes the last few years. But, that is just dowright insanity. It goes beyond rumpswabbing to the point of clinical psychiatric evaluation.

[ipot]

One of the under reported weaknesses of the Red Sox organization is their professional scouting. Their scouting at the amateur level seems competent but somebody is not doing their due diligence at the pro level. ' date=' IMHO[/quote']

 

Thanks for bringing that u, elk. Something I was chest thumping about since about 2005. I don't regret the swap for AGon. But, the rest of the prospects have been underwhelming.

 

Although, I think Kalish showed some mettle in 2010.

 

But, guess what? He's another LHH, speedy, OFer with power. We've got a busload of them now. One is MVP caliber and the other is costing us $142M.

[example1]

Thanks for bringing that u, elk. Something I was chest thumping about since about 2005. I don't regret the swap for AGon. But, the rest of the prospects have been underwhelming.

 

Although, I think Kalish showed some mettle in 2010.

 

But, guess what? He's another LHH, speedy, OFer with power. We've got a busload of them now. One is MVP caliber and the other is costing us $142M.

 

 

Plenty of guys have been traded since then too. That depletes a system quickly too. Masterful and Hagadone would look pretty good for this club right now.

[FredLynn]

Here is a link to the audio of a part of Henry's interview. Its long, and he sounds half asleep. I don't know whether to believe him or not. Some of what he says sounds fishy.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/blogs/thebuzz/2011/10/audio_john_henr.html

[FredLynn]

This comment on Crawford was, at best, ill advised. I will give Henry credit: at least he opened up and tried to answer some of the accusations being leveled at the team by the media:

 

This Friday, he was on Felger and Mazz exchanging verbal blows, ripping apart whoever revealed the personal stuff about Terry Francona and ruining whatever motivation beyond payday Carl Crawford will ever have in Boston. His line about not supporting the Crawford signing will have some major repercussions. Crawford will be playing in Boston with whatever is left of a $142 million chip on his shoulder for the next six years.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

That really was a stupid move on Henry's part. Really stupid.

[Elktonnick]

I heard the whole thing. I can't believe that an executive as savy as Henry or an organization that prides itself on rational mangement would be so inadept at crisis management public relations. They may be great marketers and pride themselves on a certain level of PR skills but this was an emotional ill considered effort. While I think that Henry should have spoken to the media, he should not have done so when he was so angry. While I believe that Henry probably didn't know or authorize the personal smear on Francona, his denials raised more questions than he answered. Furthermore, he threw Carl Crawford under the bus. From a crisis management point of view his appearance may have made him feel better but I don't think it helped the situation.

[seabeachfred]

Plenty of guys have been traded since then too. That depletes a system quickly too. Masterful and Hagadone would look pretty good for this club right now.

 

Ex---we are still a little too left handed in the lineup if you ask me. We need at least another RH hitter with some sock and that means DeJesus or another southpaw is not the answer. I have great confidence that Ryan Lavarnway can emerge as a solid power hitting catcher-DH, occasional outfielder (that's what he was originally), and that means there can be no more Varitek holding him or anyone else back. Speaking of lefties, I make an exception for Jacoby Ellsbury. Somehow, someway, we need to keep this guy. He has emerged as a near superstar. We can get a RH hitter RF and DH to become more balanced and I'm getting the feeling the team just might let Ortiz walk this winter. He has a horrid September (pretty much like everyone else), and I didn't like hearing he wouldn't mind playing for the Yankees. That is pure heresy with me.

[seabeachfred]

No team has EVER failed to make the playoffs with a 9 game lead in Sept....until the Red Sox did' date=' and it was a team that was expected to the best in baseball.[/quote']

 

OK! Fine and dandy. We had the biggest chokeup in regular season baseball history. The difference between your crowd and mine is that we acknowledge it and accept the reasons for it instead of making a pack of lame excuses for the whys and wherefores as you guys have been doing since 2004. As for the Playoffs, I wouldn't try to do any bragging about that if I were you. A one and out doesn't make it with me and if you're honest with yourself it shouldn't make it with you either.

[The Village Idiot]

I heard the whole thing. I can't believe that an executive as savy as Henry or an organization that prides itself on rational mangement would be so inadept at crisis management public relations. They may be great marketers and pride themselves on a certain level of PR skills but this was an emotional ill considered effort. While I think that Henry should have spoken to the media' date=' he should not have done so when he was so angry. While I believe that Henry probably didn't know or authorize the personal smear on Francona, his denials raised more questions than he answered. Furthermore, he threw Carl Crawford under the bus. From a crisis management point of view his appearance may have made him feel better but I don't think it helped the situation.[/quote']

 

What kind of world are we living in that some people would rather hear hired gun spin doctor press handlers speaking smoothly, in the name of white collar crisis management, than to hear the Principal Owner himself go head-to-head with two of the most ridiculous so-called sports journalists around, Mazzarotti and Felger? What happened today in that CBS studio is one of the very few beautiful things about freedom of speech: Sometimes people--even very powerful people, who can afford to shield themselves from such stress--exercise it, and put themselves right in the line of fire. If you haven't heard the Henry impromptu "interview," listen to it immediately. He denies the ownership group contributing to the story; keeps Felger and Mazz focused on what REALLY happened at the end of the season: the pitching staff s***ing the bed, resulting in the Sox repeatedly losing games, which, sorry to bore you all, but is what ACTUALLY happened and what is FACT, not ******** narrative or gossip or extrapolation built on rumor; properly credits both Tito and Theo for being the legends that they are; and promises that he's as committed to this team as he's ever been.

 

If that's not good enough for you, then Jesus, I don't know what to tell you. Did you grow up trusting no one? Did your entire family walk out on you at age 1 and leave you unable to trust ANYONE'S word for life? I don't understand the paranoia of the Sox fan base these past two weeks. I really don't. You don't make the playoffs two years in a row and you're all wah-wah-wah, we deserve better?! Do none of you remember the year 2001? Or any other year prior to that one. I guess not.

[Elktonnick]

He made the situation worse because he waited too long. They should have done this two days ago. He disparaged Crawford (neeednessly) who despite having a bad year is a stand-up guy. He made things worse because Larry Lucchino gave the impression when he did his impromtu interview rightly or wrongly that he was having it both ways and could have been behind the smear. He made things worse because there are people in his organization (someone is the source of the smear) who are speaking out of turn damaging reputations and the club. He made the situation worse because he didn't get the complete whole truth out sooner. It isn't about spin it is about transparency and accuracy. This has been one of the worst public relations disasters to hit this club during their tenure. It could have been avoided if they had handled this appropriately but they didn't.

[jung]

I guess the quote from JH that people are having trouble with is the one that appears to directly contradict the one made by LL.

 

JH said about the Crawford signing "Anybody in upper management at the Red Sox will tell you that I was personally opposed".

 

Trumping LL who had just commented earlier that upper management had all been on board with the Crawford signing.

 

I was in the car when they played the LL tape so please do correct me if I have his end of it wrong. JH's quote is posted at WEEI. Certainly the radio guys were trying to make the case that this was the discrepancy.

[Elktonnick]

I guess the quote from JH that people are having trouble with is the one that appears to directly contradict the one made by LL.

 

JH said about the Crawford signing "Anybody in upper management at the Red Sox will tell you that I was personally opposed".

 

Trumping LL who had just commented earlier that upper management had all been on board with the Crawford signing.

 

I was in the car when they played the LL tape so please do correct me if I have his end of it wrong. JH's quote is posted at WEEI. Certainly the radio guys were trying to make the case that this was the discrepancy.

 

Yes and a big one.

[VA Sox Fan]

No team has EVER failed to make the playoffs with a 9 game lead in Sept....until the Red Sox did' date=' and it was a team that was expected to the best in baseball.[/quote']

 

STFU NYY fan. :thumbdown:thumbdown

 

Would rather have our 2011 collapse than your team's collapse in 2004. Any time any day.

[The Village Idiot]

He made the situation worse because he waited too long. They should have done this two days ago. He disparaged Crawford (neeednessly) who despite having a bad year is a stand-up guy. He made things worse because Larry Lucchino gave the impression when he did his impromtu interview rightly or wrongly that he was having it both ways and could have been behind the smear. He made things worse because there are people in his organization (someone is the source of the smear) who are speaking out of turn damaging reputations and the club. He made the situation worse because he didn't get the complete whole truth out sooner. It isn't about spin it is about transparency and accuracy. This has been one of the worst public relations disasters to hit this club during their tenure. It could have been avoided if they had handled this appropriately but they didn't.

 

The article came out on Wednesday. He stormed CBS studio on Friday. 48 hours is too long? Thank you, Ted Turner, for turning the world into this.

 

Again, he did not disparage Carl Crawford at all. The example that he used was in response to a question about who was making the call regarding bringing players to the table within the organization for signing consideration , and the fact that the baseball ops guys were the ones who valued Carl as highly as they did is a credit to baseball ops, it WASN'T Henry claiming he had some great insights that the ops guys didn't, because he doesn't have those insights! There's no way that Crawford wouldn't listen to this interview and think it was pretty funny, actually, provided that Crawford has a sense of humor. Jesus, Henry is the owner and signs Carl's checks. This was not a Henry campaign to absolve himself of what people are jumping to the conclusion as being the Carl Crawford free agency disaster. Good God, the man had one bad year, and everyone wants to crucify him. It's ridiculous. Oh, and did you notice that Henry also said, a breath later, that Gonzalez (a full success for 90% of this year) was also a credit to the baseball ops guys too? Listen to what the man actually SAID, not what you're reading into.

 

Look, it's pretty clear that Lucchino answered the question that whatever sleezy reporter asked him the question outside his office at Fenway about the Hohler article exactly like a lawyer would answer it. Using the words or phrase "interesting set of theories." Because the man answered a question the way that you wouldn't, or the way that Henry wouldn't--you automatically make the assessment that he orchestrated a smear campaign against the manager that had helped his team win 2 world series and make the playoffs 6 of 9 seasons?

 

Also, Henry adamantly denied several times during today's CBS gig that none of the owners were the sources to Hohler. The Red Sox organization employs hundreds of people. For all we know, Henry and Lucchino have spent the past 48 hours trying to find out who spilled the beans about the Tito so they can hold those people accountable for such behavior. WE HAVE NO IDEA. Why assume a smear campaign? It's a very unfair thing of fans to assume.

 

He didn't get the whole truth out sooner? Dude, the man didn't wait two weeks. Or a week. Or four days. Or three days. He "waited" TWO DAYS. None of us have any idea what must be going on behind the scenes at Red Sox headquarters with their manager for the past 8 years and their GM for the past 9 years essentially deciding to depart all within just a little over a week and the media doing this media frenzy scenario. Maybe he's spent the past day and a half on the phones and in meetings pleading with Theo to stay? I mean, we have no fricking clue.

 

Two weeks would be unforgiveable. Two days? I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a man who's given me two World Series victories in less than a decade for two bloody days of "waiting." Let's be reasonable...for a change.

[FredLynn]

I heard the whole thing. I can't believe that an executive as savy as Henry or an organization that prides itself on rational mangement would be so inadept at crisis management public relations. They may be great marketers and pride themselves on a certain level of PR skills but this was an emotional ill considered effort. While I think that Henry should have spoken to the media' date=' he should not have done so when he was so angry. While I believe that Henry probably didn't know or authorize the personal smear on Francona, his denials raised more questions than he answered. Furthermore, he threw Carl Crawford under the bus. From a crisis management point of view his appearance may have made him feel better but I don't think it helped the situation.[/quote']

 

ELK, I give the man credit for stepping up and ending the silence. He didn't do a particularly good job, but he tried. The Crawford comment was ill advised, but I feel like I have a better understanding of how things run in the FO. It was very educational for me. I don't mind him showing up angry either. He should be angry. And if he has actually been falsely accused of smearing Francona, he should defend himself. I don't think he was the one who let all that get out. I believe him on that account.

[ipot]

Wow, this is a bigger mess than the BP spill. THey need an outside interventionist to gather up the whole org, bring them to a retreat for a week, and fix this. I'm serious.

 

My suspicion here is that Henry/Werner were on their own islands; Lucchino was too busy primping himself for Selig's job; Epstein was given the run of the playroom and then caned Francona to throw a little diversion for his pre-planned exit. It's clever - he's gone and the ownership has no clue what's going on.

 

In all of this, they ALL are to blame, except Francona imho, who was just a lackey (pun intended) in all of this. I think Tito knew the mess upstairs and knew he was a goner and just said "F--k it." He got his zingers in there before he left. And he had every right to.

 

Gotta go with an outsider like the Mets did with Alderson. Cherington will just continue the culture of disorder, no matter how he tries to fix it. He's still an insider....

[iortiz]

JH's comment about Crawford is not clever at all. You don't say that to the media as the owner of this team even if you dislike him or not. You already commited 142 M, so deal with that!. What is the message that he is sending to CC saying that?. Carl Crawford will be around for at least 6 more years for God's sake....

 

This team is putrid.

 

BTW I'm very disappointed of CC an I'm starting to doubt about his value, and I can say it publicly, but it doesn't matter at all since I'm just a simple and foreign fan.